"What are you supposed to do in a society that is corrupt? Are you supposed
to obey corrupt laws? Is it a crime to break a law that is a rotten law,
or an oath that is rotten?"

"It's a crime," Cartwright admitted slowly, "But it may be the right thing
to do."

"In a society of criminals," Shaeffler offered, "the innocent man goes to jail."

"Who decides when society is made up of criminals?" Benteley demanded.
"How do you know when your society has gone wrong? How do you know when
it's right to stop obeying the laws?"

-- PKD, Solar Lottery
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On Tue, 19 May 2026 21:53:06 -0400 (EDT), Scott Dorsey wrote:

"Who decides when society is made up of criminals?" Benteley
demanded. "How do you know when your society has gone wrong? How do
you know when it's right to stop obeying the laws?"

-- PKD, Solar Lottery

In these days, you don?t have to operate in a vacuum any more. We have international institutions, still widely respected, that define some
norms that all nations can live by.

Even if your current regime seems determined to undermine these
internationl institutions, even if it is the most powerful country in
the world (politlcally, economically, militarily), I still don?t think
it will succeed.

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On 2026-05-20, Scott Dorsey <kludge@panix.com> wrote:

"What are you supposed to do in a society that
is corrupt? Are you supposed to obey corrupt
laws? Is it a crime to break a law that is a
rotten law, or an oath that is rotten?"

"It's a crime," Cartwright admitted slowly,
"But it may be the right thing to do."

"In a society of criminals," Shaeffler offered,
"the innocent man goes to jail."

"Who decides when society is made up of
criminals?" Benteley demanded. "How do you know
when your society has gone wrong? How do you
know when it's right to stop obeying the laws?"

-- PKD, Solar Lottery

Sounds like justification prelude to doing
whatever the heck one wants to do.

There's nothing new about it. We see it every
time liberals "protest", where the "protest"
somehow always winds up looking a lot more
like violent trampling of others' property
and rights than "protest".

The very first sentence in the quoted contains
"is corrupt", which conveniently ignores that
fact that subjective beings never know
objective reality, but only private
re-presentation(s) thereof, which
are teaming with wishful and/or
wantful thinking. They
wish/want reality to
be a certain way
and, ohmygosh,
it suddenly
*IS*!

But selfish charlatans are quick to throw the
word 'is' around like that, as though they've
more direct access to the objective reality
of situations.

It's just classic pride en route to a fall.

--
v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v
| alt.troll.adam-h-kerman: proof that the |
| internet sometimes gets something right | ^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On 2026-05-20, Lawrence D?Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:

On Tue, 19 May 2026 21:53:06 -0400 (EDT), Scott Dorsey wrote:

"Who decides when society is made up of
criminals?" Benteley demanded. "How do you know
when your society has gone wrong? How do you
know when it's right to stop obeying the laws?"

-- PKD, Solar Lottery

In these days, you don?t have to operate
in a vacuum any more. We have international
institutions, still widely respected, that
define some norms that all nations can live by.

Even if your current regime seems determined
to undermine these internationl institutions,
even if it is the most powerful country in the
world (politlcally, economically, militarily),
I still don?t think it will succeed.

You've some faith in the word 'international',
as though it automatically confers getting
things right.

It doesn't any more than a democracy of mostly
morons gets things right.

Character and wisdom are either present in
majority, or "shit happens". Word magic like
your idolatry over the word 'international'
doesn't undo that math any more than idolatry
over a wished-for power of the word 'levitation'
undoes gravity.

--
v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v
| alt.troll.adam-h-kerman: proof that the |
| internet sometimes gets something right | ^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On Tue, 19 May 2026 21:53:06 -0400 (EDT), kludge@panix.com (Scott
Dorsey) wrote:

"What are you supposed to do in a society that is corrupt? Are you

supposed

to obey corrupt laws? Is it a crime to break a law that is a rotten

law,

or an oath that is rotten?"

"It's a crime," Cartwright admitted slowly, "But it may be the right

thing

to do."

"In a society of criminals," Shaeffler offered, "the innocent man goes

to

jail."

"Who decides when society is made up of criminals?" Benteley demanded.
"How do you know when your society has gone wrong? How do you know when
it's right to stop obeying the laws?"

-- PKD, Solar Lottery

If you actually /want/ a thorough answer from a religious perspective,
Helmut Thielicke's /Theological Ethics: Volume 2: Politics/ (LC
66-17343 -- yes, my copy predates ISBNs) discusses the issue towards
the end. This is a very intellectual book, and may be a bit hard to
get through. It and Volume 1 have a lot more stuff in them, of course.

Helmut Thielicke was a Lutheran who, unlike Bonhoeffer, went along
with the official church in Germany in the 30's and 40's. After the
war, he asked himself just how he, and so many others, had been
deluded into supporting Hitler.

His answer is quite simple: generations of the Lutheran teaching of
obedience to the State (based on Romans) conditioned them to obedience
no matter what.

And that led him to an insight: in a totalitarian state (it doesn't
matter what ideology), ethics crosses a boundary and moral values
invert. Thus, the reason you don't tell the Nazi's you have a Jew
living in your attic is not some wimpy "greater good" thing but
because lying to Nazis is a /positive moral good/. As is killing
Nazis, and also assassinating Hitler.

But not if you can still vote the rascals out instead. If you can
still vote them out, it is not totalitarianism and violence is not
justified.

This is why we are not at that point yet -- the 2026 midterms are
still coming. But that is why the redistricting frenzy and Trump's
desperate attempts to pursue the "massive voting fraud in 2020" lie
and to control the process by interfering with voting-by-mail are so
dangerous.
--
"Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)