Can you still buy 4x16GB 3866MHz DDR4 SDRAM UDIMMs, such as two G.Skill F4-3866C18D-32GTZR preferably without horrible 'RGB' LEDs (though if only option and OpenRGB can turn off, we'd use this model)? I searched Google, New Egg, Amazon, Best Buy, Ali Express, but closest are 3733MHz, 4000MHz. We want to upgrade old PC--GigaByte GA-Z270-HD3P--with fastest RAM, which GigaByte.com says is 3866MHz... can you even run 4000MHz at all--stable at 3866MHz--or best switch down to 3733, 3666, or 3600MHz, etc.?
Internet Relay Chat (IRC) gave unhelpful replies like 'use DDR5'--GA-Z270- HD3P can't--and someone saying that technology generation doesn't 'scale' well with RAM (whatever that means) but we're not getting rid of it nor using slower just because of vague/subject-changing IRC statements.
Of course, if/when there are decent/better DDR5 SDRAM system-/logic-/ main-/mother-board options (see my 2024-1-4 alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt thread asking about CPUs) I'll build a new PC (for me, not replacing GA- Z270-HD3P (family PC) so saying 'use DDR5' is irrelevant)... that is, if/ when a new DDR5 full/extended ATX system-board has plain PCI slot(s) and preferably can run powerful AMD Ryzen (7950X(3D) Zen4 or successor Zen5)
or maybe Intel Core i9 almost as powerful (threads) for computer programming/science (particularly compiling large projects, which still, primarily needing larger number of threads, only AMD is best at)...
entirely unrelated to upgrading old PC for the many years we plan to use.
On 4/1/2024 4:58 AM, David Chmelik wrote:kabylake_i7_7700k_32gb_ram_support/
Can you still buy 4x16GB 3866MHz DDR4 SDRAM UDIMMs, such as two G.Skillhttps://www.reddit.com/r/intel/comments/115th3p/
F4-3866C18D-32GTZR preferably without horrible 'RGB' LEDs (though if
only option and OpenRGB can turn off, we'd use this model)? I searched
Google,
New Egg, Amazon, Best Buy, Ali Express, but closest are 3733MHz,
4000MHz. We want to upgrade old PC--GigaByte GA-Z270-HD3P--with fastest
RAM, which GigaByte.com says is 3866MHz... can you even run 4000MHz at
all--stable at 3866MHz--or best switch down to 3733, 3666, or 3600MHz,
etc.?
Internet Relay Chat (IRC) gave unhelpful replies like 'use
DDR5'--GA-Z270-
HD3P can't--and someone saying that technology generation doesn't
'scale' well with RAM (whatever that means) but we're not getting rid
of it nor using slower just because of vague/subject-changing IRC
statements.
Of course, if/when there are decent/better DDR5 SDRAM system-/logic-/
main-/mother-board options (see my 2024-1-4
alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt thread asking about CPUs) I'll build a
new PC (for me, not replacing GA- Z270-HD3P (family PC) so saying 'use
DDR5' is irrelevant)... that is, if/ when a new DDR5 full/extended ATX
system-board has plain PCI slot(s) and preferably can run powerful AMD
Ryzen (7950X(3D) Zen4 or successor Zen5) or maybe Intel Core i9 almost
as powerful (threads) for computer programming/science (particularly
compiling large projects, which still, primarily needing larger number
of threads, only AMD is best at)... entirely unrelated to upgrading old
PC for the many years we plan to use.
https://benchmarks.pugetsystems.com/benchmarks/view.php?id=105243
Intel Core i7-7700K CPU @ 4.20GHz Memory 64GB (2x32GB) 3000MHz
Motherboard MSI Z270 GAMING M3 (MS-7A62)
That says, basically, that there is no hardware barrier to using 2x32GB.
I've had boards before, they simply do not have support for the highest density chips, even though the hardware is agreeable (enough address
bits),
and without support the timing settings are all wrong. For example, on
my 4Core board from Asrock, the thing actually supported 2x2GB RAM, when
even the VIA web page (the chipset maker!) reported it only supported
2x1GB.
But without proper BIOS support, I would have needed to do 256 trials of memtest, to figure out the necessary settings. Not gonna happen...
On speed, I would stay at no more than 3600.
Some people have experienced "BSOD-city" at anything over 2133,
but that could be due to older generations of RAM chips.
3600 is much easier to find, and is "standard speed" for current gen.
What we don't know, is if the Gigabyte BIOS handles 32GB modules.
And I don't know if any computer shop support, will run 2x32GB DDR4-3600
on XMP speculatively, and compare to 4x16GB double-sided DDR4-3600
(which uses chips having half the density and might be more agreeable to
the Gigabyte BIOS parsing). Any shops I've been in, their "RAM cabinet"
is filled with garbage RAM. They never break open packs of boutique RAM
and offer a testing service to identify a working module. You know,
one shop, they'd never heard of memtest, so I fucking well had to give
them a copy :-) Like, who should not be in the computer store business.
Now we know. The shop that didn't know what memtest was.
It's the usual ugly situation, where the current generation DDR4 does
not give a rats-ass about details, and older tech might indeed care
about the details, as it's not quite as easy-going.
One other aspect, is automatic adjustments the BIOS makes, and Gigabyte
is one of the more aggressive manufacturers (uses too much VCore when
MSI uses less). There can also be bumping of PLL voltage when a higher
speed RAM is inserted. The result is a 90C CPU, and difficulty avoiding throttling. If the CPU throttles, then all that "juicy" memory
performance improvement, is tossed out the window like trash. These are things an owner can attempt to hand tweak (as Enthusiast boards expose
the settings and bad choices can be overruled). The 7700K did not have
very good TIM inside the thing (even though the curved lid makes it look
like a soldered lid). It's hard to keep a CPU cool,
if it's being tortured on voltage (90C versus 70C, if it were done
properly).
It's a multi-variable problem. And in addition, some of the details we
need, may not be on the RAM manufacturer web site. Even whether RAM is
SS or DS is not necessarily on the master spec page. And since several densities of chips are available, and the RAM makers select which one to
used based on daily spot price... it's just a trip to the "hardware
casino". I can go to the computer store, buy two packs of RAM, one pack
has sticks with 16 chips,
the other pack has sticks with 8 chips (you can read out the details by dumping a CPUZ text report using the last pane in the interface).
I would try to borrow a 32GB stick, and "see what happens" :-)
As a starting point. If it reports 32GB, woohoo!, 2x32GB here we come. 2x32GB, if it reports 64GB as expected (minus video card RAM decode
perhaps), the signal integrity, and ability to hit 3600 when you flip on
XMP, should be super-easy. I am a little more concerned about how easy
the 4x16GB case will be, as some 16GB sticks will be DS, and if a 16GB
stick is SS, it's using the same DRAM chips as a 32GB DS stick would be using. This means most likely, all the 16GB more or less, will be DS and using chips of half the density of the 32GB modules.
If you needed to sell off 4x16GB, both 3200 and 3600 should still have
some resale value, with the 3600 being easier to move. The box I'm
typing on, uses 3200.
If flipping on XMP does not work, and your new config crashes,
be warned that it takes *one week* of fiddling and testing,
and the end result is most likely your 3200 or 3600 kit runs at 2400.
That XMP setting saves a lot of work... when it passes memtest.
I'm not a RAM expert, because I don't know what all the settings in the
BIOS do. As a hardware designer, I know what the "turn time"
is, the time of flight to the module and back again. I know the
theoretical concepts. But some of the labeling in the BIOS eludes me :-)
RAM actually contains features that PC compatible computers do not use
(some of the cycle abort features are not used).
As for CAS, some of the chipsets/generations have a lower limit on CAS. Normally, the modules can't quite make it that low, but there have been generations where indeed, you could buy a CAS3 and the BIOS would only
go down to CAS4. And you'd be angry as a result.
CAS is much higher now, and the minimum value is likely out of reach,
so one less thing to worry about.
Summary: 2x32GB DS modules DDR4-3600 ? I'd gamble on that as the SI is better.
But if the BIOS stupidly reported only half the RAM ? Hmmm.
4x16GB DS modules ? Getting XMP to work may be out of reach on
that generation, and then there's a week of fiddling to do and
whatever the intended speed, a lesser speed will result.
Current gen hardware laughs at the four DIMM case, the older
systems... less so.
Some people have run 4x8GB DDR4-3600 on the 7700K, but
generally they did not write up the details of the experience.
Each case has different known-unknowns. [...]
On Tue, 2 Apr 2024 03:44:26 -0400, Paul wrote:
On 4/1/2024 4:58 AM, David Chmelik wrote:kabylake_i7_7700k_32gb_ram_support/
Can you still buy 4x16GB 3866MHz DDR4 SDRAM UDIMMs, such as two G.Skillhttps://www.reddit.com/r/intel/comments/115th3p/
F4-3866C18D-32GTZR preferably without horrible 'RGB' LEDs (though if
only option and OpenRGB can turn off, we'd use this model)? I searched
Google,
New Egg, Amazon, Best Buy, Ali Express, but closest are 3733MHz,
4000MHz. We want to upgrade old PC--GigaByte GA-Z270-HD3P--with fastest
RAM, which GigaByte.com says is 3866MHz... can you even run 4000MHz at
all--stable at 3866MHz--or best switch down to 3733, 3666, or 3600MHz,
etc.?
Internet Relay Chat (IRC) gave unhelpful replies like 'use
DDR5'--GA-Z270-
HD3P can't--and someone saying that technology generation doesn't
'scale' well with RAM (whatever that means) but we're not getting rid
of it nor using slower just because of vague/subject-changing IRC
statements.
Of course, if/when there are decent/better DDR5 SDRAM system-/logic-/
main-/mother-board options (see my 2024-1-4
alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt thread asking about CPUs) I'll build a
new PC (for me, not replacing GA- Z270-HD3P (family PC) so saying 'use
DDR5' is irrelevant)... that is, if/ when a new DDR5 full/extended ATX
system-board has plain PCI slot(s) and preferably can run powerful AMD
Ryzen (7950X(3D) Zen4 or successor Zen5) or maybe Intel Core i9 almost
as powerful (threads) for computer programming/science (particularly
compiling large projects, which still, primarily needing larger number
of threads, only AMD is best at)... entirely unrelated to upgrading old
PC for the many years we plan to use.
https://benchmarks.pugetsystems.com/benchmarks/view.php?id=105243
Intel Core i7-7700K CPU @ 4.20GHz Memory 64GB (2x32GB) 3000MHz
Motherboard MSI Z270 GAMING M3 (MS-7A62)
That says, basically, that there is no hardware barrier to using 2x32GB.
I've had boards before, they simply do not have support for the highest
density chips, even though the hardware is agreeable (enough address
bits),
and without support the timing settings are all wrong. For example, on
my 4Core board from Asrock, the thing actually supported 2x2GB RAM, when
even the VIA web page (the chipset maker!) reported it only supported
2x1GB.
But without proper BIOS support, I would have needed to do 256 trials of
memtest, to figure out the necessary settings. Not gonna happen...
On speed, I would stay at no more than 3600.
Some people have experienced "BSOD-city" at anything over 2133,
but that could be due to older generations of RAM chips.
3600 is much easier to find, and is "standard speed" for current gen.
What we don't know, is if the Gigabyte BIOS handles 32GB modules.
And I don't know if any computer shop support, will run 2x32GB DDR4-3600
on XMP speculatively, and compare to 4x16GB double-sided DDR4-3600
(which uses chips having half the density and might be more agreeable to
the Gigabyte BIOS parsing). Any shops I've been in, their "RAM cabinet"
is filled with garbage RAM. They never break open packs of boutique RAM
and offer a testing service to identify a working module. You know,
one shop, they'd never heard of memtest, so I fucking well had to give
them a copy :-) Like, who should not be in the computer store business.
Now we know. The shop that didn't know what memtest was.
It's the usual ugly situation, where the current generation DDR4 does
not give a rats-ass about details, and older tech might indeed care
about the details, as it's not quite as easy-going.
One other aspect, is automatic adjustments the BIOS makes, and Gigabyte
is one of the more aggressive manufacturers (uses too much VCore when
MSI uses less). There can also be bumping of PLL voltage when a higher
speed RAM is inserted. The result is a 90C CPU, and difficulty avoiding
throttling. If the CPU throttles, then all that "juicy" memory
performance improvement, is tossed out the window like trash. These are
things an owner can attempt to hand tweak (as Enthusiast boards expose
the settings and bad choices can be overruled). The 7700K did not have
very good TIM inside the thing (even though the curved lid makes it look
like a soldered lid). It's hard to keep a CPU cool,
if it's being tortured on voltage (90C versus 70C, if it were done
properly).
It's a multi-variable problem. And in addition, some of the details we
need, may not be on the RAM manufacturer web site. Even whether RAM is
SS or DS is not necessarily on the master spec page. And since several
densities of chips are available, and the RAM makers select which one to
used based on daily spot price... it's just a trip to the "hardware
casino". I can go to the computer store, buy two packs of RAM, one pack
has sticks with 16 chips,
the other pack has sticks with 8 chips (you can read out the details by
dumping a CPUZ text report using the last pane in the interface).
I would try to borrow a 32GB stick, and "see what happens" :-)
As a starting point. If it reports 32GB, woohoo!, 2x32GB here we come.
2x32GB, if it reports 64GB as expected (minus video card RAM decode
perhaps), the signal integrity, and ability to hit 3600 when you flip on
XMP, should be super-easy. I am a little more concerned about how easy
the 4x16GB case will be, as some 16GB sticks will be DS, and if a 16GB
stick is SS, it's using the same DRAM chips as a 32GB DS stick would be
using. This means most likely, all the 16GB more or less, will be DS and
using chips of half the density of the 32GB modules.
If you needed to sell off 4x16GB, both 3200 and 3600 should still have
some resale value, with the 3600 being easier to move. The box I'm
typing on, uses 3200.
If flipping on XMP does not work, and your new config crashes,
be warned that it takes *one week* of fiddling and testing,
and the end result is most likely your 3200 or 3600 kit runs at 2400.
That XMP setting saves a lot of work... when it passes memtest.
I'm not a RAM expert, because I don't know what all the settings in the
BIOS do. As a hardware designer, I know what the "turn time"
is, the time of flight to the module and back again. I know the
theoretical concepts. But some of the labeling in the BIOS eludes me :-)
RAM actually contains features that PC compatible computers do not use
(some of the cycle abort features are not used).
As for CAS, some of the chipsets/generations have a lower limit on CAS.
Normally, the modules can't quite make it that low, but there have been
generations where indeed, you could buy a CAS3 and the BIOS would only
go down to CAS4. And you'd be angry as a result.
CAS is much higher now, and the minimum value is likely out of reach,
so one less thing to worry about.
Summary: 2x32GB DS modules DDR4-3600 ? I'd gamble on that as the SI is
better.
But if the BIOS stupidly reported only half the RAM ? Hmmm.
4x16GB DS modules ? Getting XMP to work may be out of reach on
that generation, and then there's a week of fiddling to do and
whatever the intended speed, a lesser speed will result.
Current gen hardware laughs at the four DIMM case, the older
systems... less so.
Some people have run 4x8GB DDR4-3600 on the 7700K, but
generally they did not write up the details of the experience.
Each case has different known-unknowns. [...]
Thanks! So, if I still do this, I might try DDR4-3600MHz as seems highest widely-available, though in fewer cases DDR4-3733MHz is also. However,
I'm having second thoughts about overclocking RAM: some people
knowledgeable about hardware said if you do, the system-board won't last
as long and some capacitors go bad. This is exactly what happened with my BioStar X470GTA this year: a capacitor popped off after almost three years usage, so likely I should've used fastest non-overclock RAM. Also, though
I had the GA-Z270-HD3P in an online shop cart and was going to checkout, I finally decided not to rather than maybe keep the GA-Z170XP-SLI it still has, and maybe don't overclock that either. I've also found some our old PCs/servers could use RAM upgrades so may make another post asking about these (mostly/all not type of RAM in subject line).
I don't understand all the technical terms--just some of them--but the detail is pretty great. I used to look at CAS & RAS speeds in the 1990s
but maybe one doesn't matter anymore and they seem to have increased
rather than decreased (which was happening for a while and which was better).
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