Since I use FreeCommander for searches, one of my settings for Windows 10 is to disable the Windows Search service.
On rare occasions, it changes back to Automatic (Delayed Start) and Running status.
Does anyone know what causes this service to revert to its default setting?

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"Allan Higdon" <allanh@vivaldi.net> writes:

Since I use FreeCommander for searches, one of my settings for Windows
10 is to disable the Windows Search service.
On rare occasions, it changes back to Automatic (Delayed Start) and
Running status.
Does anyone know what causes this service to revert to its default setting?

I don't know anything about Windows, but we must always consider Windows Updates. Are you doing Windows Updates? When did you last did it?

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On Sat, 23 Nov 2024 06:02:42 -0600, Wolfgang Agnes <wagnes@example.com> wrote:

"Allan Higdon" <allanh@vivaldi.net> writes:

Since I use FreeCommander for searches, one of my settings for Windows
10 is to disable the Windows Search service.
On rare occasions, it changes back to Automatic (Delayed Start) and
Running status.
Does anyone know what causes this service to revert to its default setting?

I don't know anything about Windows, but we must always consider Windows Updates. Are you doing Windows Updates? When did you last did it?

I installed the latest Win10 build (19045.5131) by mounting the ISO file on 11/20.
All the services were configured the way I wanted on that date.
I didn't notice the change to Windows Search untill 11/22.

There was an extended power outage for about 10 hours on 11/21.
Since the other services were unaffected, could that have had something to do with it?

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On 11/23/2024 1:56 AM, Allan Higdon wrote:

Since I use FreeCommander for searches, one of my settings for Windows
10 is to disable the Windows Search service.
On rare occasions, it changes back to Automatic (Delayed Start) and
Running status.
Does anyone know what causes this service to revert to its default setting?

As Wolfgang said, all bets are off if you allow Windows
Update to run. In that case you should expect tampon
and Toyota ads on the Start Menu. Part of the problem of
Win10 is that Microsoft will not respect your settings choices.
A number of services will be restarted if you disable them.
Even more perverse -- you can shut down some services
that will break Windows altogether, and get no complaint,
while other unnecessary services won't allow you to change
them. It's as though MS are saying, "Look, fry your computer
if you like. We don't care. But as long as it runs, it runs on
our terms."

Aside from that, there's a complication to be aware of.
Background Tasks Infrastructure service will restart the search
app even if you disable indexing and search. BTI itself is one of
those services that you CAN shut off, but good luck getting the
system working again. (I tried disabling it once. The result was a
strobing display. I had to change the service startup in Regedit
between blackouts and then reboot.)

I came across a clever solution that shuts down searchapp
and renames the folder, so that BTI can't find it. :) It works
nicely. I don't remember any problem setting the search service
to disabled, but SearchApp was loading and wasting a lot of RAM.

Again, if you allow Microsoft to mess with your system then
all bets are off. So my suggestion would be to get Windows
Update Blocker, boot MS off your system, also use a firewall to
block calls home and attempts to call in. Then disable search and
run this as a .bat file:

taskkill /f /im SearchApp.exe
timeout /T 1
move %windir%\SystemApps\Microsoft.Windows.Search_cw5n1h2txyewy %windir%\SystemApps\Microsoft.Windows.Search_cw5n1h2txyewy.old

(Note that before %windir% should be a space, not a line return.)

If you enable updates then I don't know what the result might
be of renaming searchapp. Updates might "repair" that and turn on
search again.


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On Sat, 11/23/2024 7:02 AM, Wolfgang Agnes wrote:

"Allan Higdon" <allanh@vivaldi.net> writes:

Since I use FreeCommander for searches, one of my settings for Windows
10 is to disable the Windows Search service.
On rare occasions, it changes back to Automatic (Delayed Start) and
Running status.
Does anyone know what causes this service to revert to its default setting?

I don't know anything about Windows, but we must always consider Windows Updates. Are you doing Windows Updates? When did you last did it?

No.

SearchIndexer is a known pain-in-the-ass, with
a design intent we don't understand. The system
does not particularly need a list of your JPGs
in Downloads, to maintain kernel operation. The
notion that searchIndexer must be kept running like
it was the RPC service, is just silly. (The OS would die
without RPC -- just try and kill it :-) )

A lot of effort goes into keeping SearchIndexer running.
It has (officially) three attempts to retry if it crashes
(us killing it in Task Manager counts as one of those).
Yet, something restarts it after the three tries are used up.
Other services are much more polite -- kick them in the nuts,
they're only going to run next, after a reboot. Not so, the
searchIndexer.

The Indexer only indexes whatever you tell it to index.
You can set the collection to almost no files at all
(maybe your Downloads), or, you can tell it to Index all
of C: (400,000 files). It can take a whole day on a slow
computer, to index a million files (a million files being
a rough estimate of the intended limit).

But if you only index 500 files, how exactly is that
going to help anyone or anything ? Dunno.

And it won't just index FileNames, as one of the option
boxes suggest. It always indexes FileNames and Content,
and the Content part takes time. Indexing the FileNames,
if that option worked, would only take fifteen seconds
on a newly installed OS. Making it Content Index everything,
takes half a day to a full day.

By default, the settings index very little. It is not like
they set it to index all of C: and we've had to turn it back.
They start with it set low, and it takes work to configure
for a full index.

It's just a very strange design.

Paul

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On Sat, 23 Nov 2024 07:27:23 -0600, Allan Higdon <allanh@vivaldi.net> wrote:

On Sat, 23 Nov 2024 06:02:42 -0600, Wolfgang Agnes <wagnes@example.com> wrote:

"Allan Higdon" <allanh@vivaldi.net> writes:

Since I use FreeCommander for searches, one of my settings for Windows
10 is to disable the Windows Search service.
On rare occasions, it changes back to Automatic (Delayed Start) and
Running status.
Does anyone know what causes this service to revert to its default setting? >>

I don't know anything about Windows, but we must always consider Windows
Updates. Are you doing Windows Updates? When did you last did it?

I installed the latest Win10 build (19045.5131) by mounting the ISO file on 11/20.
All the services were configured the way I wanted on that date.
I didn't notice the change to Windows Search untill 11/22.

There was an extended power outage for about 10 hours on 11/21.
Since the other services were unaffected, could that have had something to do with it?

I should have mentioned that I disable Windows Update using Winaero Tweaker immediately after any install of the latest build.

--- MBSE BBS v1.0.8.4 (Linux-x86_64)
* Origin: i2pn2 (i2pn.org) (3:633/280.2@fidonet)

Keywords: VanguardLH,VLH

Allan Higdon <allanh@vivaldi.net> wrote:

Since I use FreeCommander for searches, one of my settings for Windows 10 is to disable the Windows Search service.
On rare occasions, it changes back to Automatic (Delayed Start) and Running status.
Does anyone know what causes this service to revert to its default setting?

I don't kill it, just reduce what it searches since I don't use it. I
use voidtools' [Search] Everything (which also has a service to do
background searching, but doesn't hide files as does Windows Search).
Possibly something is calling the service. Task Scheduler is used for
many maintenance events in Windows. I found the following:

Task Scheduler
Task Scheduler Library
Microsoft
Windows
Shell
IndexerAutomaticMaintenance

The comment on that event says "Keeps the search index up to date".

It is a custom handler. I'd have to research again the syntax of that,
but normally you cannot edit a scheduled event that is custom. However,
you could try disabling that scheduled event.

Note that you may not want to kill or disable the Indexer (Windows
Search) as some programs will use it. For example, with Indexer service disabled, the search in MS Outlook fails. Nothing found. I had to
reenable the Indexer service to get search inside of Outlook to work.
As I recall, even after reenabling Indexer, I had to find out how to add Outlook to the list of targets to index.

Instead of killing Indexer, you could reduce what it indexes (Indexing Options). It still runs, but won't have much to search.

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* Origin: Usenet Elder (3:633/280.2@fidonet)

On Sat, 11/23/2024 2:09 PM, VanguardLH wrote:

Allan Higdon <allanh@vivaldi.net> wrote:

Since I use FreeCommander for searches, one of my settings for Windows 10 is to disable the Windows Search service.
On rare occasions, it changes back to Automatic (Delayed Start) and Running status.
Does anyone know what causes this service to revert to its default setting?

I don't kill it, just reduce what it searches since I don't use it. I
use voidtools' [Search] Everything (which also has a service to do
background searching, but doesn't hide files as does Windows Search). Possibly something is calling the service. Task Scheduler is used for
many maintenance events in Windows. I found the following:

Task Scheduler
Task Scheduler Library
Microsoft
Windows
Shell
IndexerAutomaticMaintenance

The comment on that event says "Keeps the search index up to date".

It is a custom handler. I'd have to research again the syntax of that,
but normally you cannot edit a scheduled event that is custom. However,
you could try disabling that scheduled event.

Note that you may not want to kill or disable the Indexer (Windows
Search) as some programs will use it. For example, with Indexer service disabled, the search in MS Outlook fails. Nothing found. I had to
reenable the Indexer service to get search inside of Outlook to work.
As I recall, even after reenabling Indexer, I had to find out how to add Outlook to the list of targets to index.

Instead of killing Indexer, you could reduce what it indexes (Indexing Options). It still runs, but won't have much to search.

The problem with leaving the Indexer running, is the USN Journal broadcast messages are sent to it regardless of whether they make sense or are
important. This consumes cycles, just filtering irrelevant USN events.

That is why the SearchIndexer is a pain in the ass during Windows Update. Windows Update can place *200,000* files in the LCU directory, and the
Indexer gets a message for each one. Guess where a lot of your "horsepower"
is wasted during Windows Update. It's Indexing. It is also windows Defender.

Killing the thing entirely, would then no longer have it registered for
USN Journal messages.


USN Journal "here is some news" ---> "Important?" Yes ---> Tell the Gatherer to index the file
No ---> Ignore event, go back to sleep etc

Even when the Indexer is set to a small domain of 500 files to keep indexed,
it still sees all 200,000 messages during Windows update, and it will
throw away all of those particular LCU folder writes.

Some part of the computer, has to discriminate and figure out which
events matter, and no matter which part of the arch does it, it costs
cycles.

Another pest is "Sysmain", which is the new name of "Superfetch".
I sometimes shut that off during Windows Update, but that's just
me clutching at straws. I don't know if that one really helps or
it's just a placebo for me :-) When your boot drive is flash based,
it's hard to say whether a "SuperFetch" optimization is "worth it".

Paul

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Keywords: VanguardLH,VLH

Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:

On Sat, 11/23/2024 2:09 PM, VanguardLH wrote:

Allan Higdon <allanh@vivaldi.net> wrote:

Since I use FreeCommander for searches, one of my settings for Windows 10 is to disable the Windows Search service.
On rare occasions, it changes back to Automatic (Delayed Start) and Running status.
Does anyone know what causes this service to revert to its default setting? >>

I don't kill it, just reduce what it searches since I don't use it. I
use voidtools' [Search] Everything (which also has a service to do
background searching, but doesn't hide files as does Windows Search).
Possibly something is calling the service. Task Scheduler is used for
many maintenance events in Windows. I found the following:

Task Scheduler
Task Scheduler Library
Microsoft
Windows
Shell
IndexerAutomaticMaintenance

The comment on that event says "Keeps the search index up to date".

It is a custom handler. I'd have to research again the syntax of that,
but normally you cannot edit a scheduled event that is custom. However,
you could try disabling that scheduled event.

Note that you may not want to kill or disable the Indexer (Windows
Search) as some programs will use it. For example, with Indexer service
disabled, the search in MS Outlook fails. Nothing found. I had to
reenable the Indexer service to get search inside of Outlook to work.
As I recall, even after reenabling Indexer, I had to find out how to add
Outlook to the list of targets to index.

Instead of killing Indexer, you could reduce what it indexes (Indexing
Options). It still runs, but won't have much to search.

The problem with leaving the Indexer running, is the USN Journal broadcast messages are sent to it regardless of whether they make sense or are important. This consumes cycles, just filtering irrelevant USN events.

That is why the SearchIndexer is a pain in the ass during Windows Update. Windows Update can place *200,000* files in the LCU directory, and the Indexer gets a message for each one. Guess where a lot of your "horsepower" is wasted during Windows Update. It's Indexing. It is also windows Defender.

Killing the thing entirely, would then no longer have it registered for
USN Journal messages.

USN Journal "here is some news" ---> "Important?" Yes ---> Tell the Gatherer to index the file
No ---> Ignore event, go back to sleep etc

Even when the Indexer is set to a small domain of 500 files to keep indexed, it still sees all 200,000 messages during Windows update, and it will
throw away all of those particular LCU folder writes.

Some part of the computer, has to discriminate and figure out which
events matter, and no matter which part of the arch does it, it costs
cycles.

Another pest is "Sysmain", which is the new name of "Superfetch".
I sometimes shut that off during Windows Update, but that's just
me clutching at straws. I don't know if that one really helps or
it's just a placebo for me :-) When your boot drive is flash based,
it's hard to say whether a "SuperFetch" optimization is "worth it".

Paul

Just be aware, as noted, that killing the Indexer can result in search
failures within apps. I gave the example of MS Outlook that won't
search without the Indexer running and updating. There might be other
MS and even non-MS apps that rely on Indexer to do searches. This is
similar to BITS (Background Intelligent Transfer Service) that Windows
uses to background the retrieve of updates, but which other apps can
also use to background retrieve files at low priority to minimize impact
on responsiveness.

I use voidtools Everything, but does ANY other program use its indexing service? So far, it has been a standalone tool. There is an SDK for Everything 1.5:

https://www.voidtools.com/support/everything/sdk/

Everything 1.4 cannot use the SDK, but 1.5 (alpha since Mar 2021) can,
yet their download page only offers 1.4. You have to visit their forum
to get the 1.5 download, but only if you intend to use their SDK now.

I consider my computer "out of service" during a Windows update, and
leave the computer for many hours, or overnight. That more CPU cycles
are used by Indexer during an update really has no effect on my use of
the computer. The reason I push off updates to a specific day and time
is for when I won't be there to wait for the update to complete.

I don't take my car to the car shop to expect to drive around in my car
while they're repairing it. I have the update happen when I'll be
sleeping. On return to my computer, I check if the update completed. I
reboot to make sure. If the update is incomplete, like it still has to
replace inuse system files, I let the reboot finish while I'm making
breakfast and showering. Like before the update, I save another image
backup after the update whereupon my computer is no longer considered
out of service.

No Windows updates get pushed onto my computer until I reenable WU. I
disable WU until *I* am prepared for the update: I have the time and the motivation, I've waited (usually a month) to see what problems others
have encountered with the update, and after I've saved an image backup
before the update. Microsoft has repeatedly proven their updates are
not always safe nor always benign.

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