"Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com>wrote: >>https://www.newegg.com/asus-vivobook-16-2880x1800-oled-intel-core-ultra-7-255h-intel-arc-graphics-gpu-32-gb-memory-1-tb-pcie-g4-s
sd-no-hdd-hdd-black/p/N82E16834236727
This laptop caught my attention in an ad email. Nothing wrong with it,
if you're into high-end laptops, but it's so funny how it still comes
with Windows Home. The reason mini PCs have Pro is that they're getting >gray-market licenses where Home is not a thing to begin with, this is
why I did "change product key" and paid the $200 for Win11 Pro retail,
on my mini. This laptop would outperform my system by a light year, and
yet it wouldn't serve me any better. Interesting to contemplate.
https://www.newegg.com/asus-vivobook-16-2880x1800-oled-intel-core-ultra-7-255h-intel-arc-graphics-gpu-32-gb-memory-1-tb-pcie-g4-ssd-no-hdd-hdd-black/p/N82E16834236727
This laptop caught my attention in an ad email. Nothing wrong with it,
if you're into high-end laptops, but it's so funny how it still comes
with Windows Home. The reason mini PCs have Pro is that they're getting gray-market licenses where Home is not a thing to begin with,
https://www.newegg.com/asus-vivobook-16-2880x1800-oled-intel-core-ultra-7-255h-intel-arc-graphics-gpu-32-gb-memory-1-tb-pcie-g4-ssd-no-hdd-hdd-black/p/N82E16834236727
This laptop caught my attention in an ad email. Nothing wrong with it,
if you're into high-end laptops, but it's so funny how it still comes
with Windows Home. The reason mini PCs have Pro is that they're getting
gray-market licenses where Home is not a thing to begin with,
You keep saying this, but I have yet to see proof that this (Mini-PCs
with gray-market Pro licenses) is common practice.
I've seen many reviews of all kinds of Mini-PCs and none mention this alleged issue.
And I have no reason to suspect that the Pro license of my (Beelink
EQR5) Mini-PC is a "gray-market" one.
What made you conclude that the Pro license which came with your
Mini-PC was a 'gray-market' one?
Winston, any wisdom on how to check the (non-)grayness of a license?
On 8/18/2026 10:23 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
https://www.newegg.com/asus-vivobook-16-2880x1800-oled-intel-core-ultra-7-255h-intel-arc-graphics-gpu-32-gb-memory-1-tb-pcie-g4-ssd-no-hdd-hdd-black/p/N82E16834236727
This laptop caught my attention in an ad email. Nothing wrong with it,
if you're into high-end laptops, but it's so funny how it still comes
with Windows Home. The reason mini PCs have Pro is that they're getting >> gray-market licenses where Home is not a thing to begin with,
You keep saying this, but I have yet to see proof that this (Mini-PCs with gray-market Pro licenses) is common practice.
I've seen many reviews of all kinds of Mini-PCs and none mention this alleged issue.
And I have no reason to suspect that the Pro license of my (Beelink EQR5) Mini-PC is a "gray-market" one.
What made you conclude that the Pro license which came with your
Mini-PC was a 'gray-market' one?
Winston, any wisdom on how to check the (non-)grayness of a license?
I will explain this very simply: Microsoft sells a lot of Windows Pro licenses to organizations, when they are no longer used or go unused the organizations sell them to various gray-market distributors, it's
perfectly legitimate in terms of saying "screw MS, I will obtain Windows cheap if I want", it will be supported and activated, but doesn't in actuality follow the license agreement MS had with the original organization. Your home PC could have a license intended for some
corporate excursion. It works, just fine. But I, being an OS-obsessed person, could never rely on that, if I could afford to pay Microsoft for
a retail license of Win11 Pro.
https://www.newegg.com/asus-vivobook-16-2880x1800-oled-intel-core-ultra-7-255h-intel-arc-graphics-gpu-32-gb-memory-1-tb-pcie-g4-ssd-no-hdd-hdd-black/p/N82E16834236727
This laptop caught my attention in an ad email. Nothing wrong with it, >>>> if you're into high-end laptops, but it's so funny how it still comes
with Windows Home. The reason mini PCs have Pro is that they're getting >>>> gray-market licenses where Home is not a thing to begin with,
You keep saying this, but I have yet to see proof that this (Mini-PCs >>> with gray-market Pro licenses) is common practice.
I've seen many reviews of all kinds of Mini-PCs and none mention this >>> alleged issue.
And I have no reason to suspect that the Pro license of my (Beelink
EQR5) Mini-PC is a "gray-market" one.
What made you conclude that the Pro license which came with your
Mini-PC was a 'gray-market' one?
Winston, any wisdom on how to check the (non-)grayness of a license?
I will explain this very simply: Microsoft sells a lot of Windows Pro
licenses to organizations, when they are no longer used or go unused the
organizations sell them to various gray-market distributors, it's
perfectly legitimate in terms of saying "screw MS, I will obtain Windows
cheap if I want", it will be supported and activated, but doesn't in
actuality follow the license agreement MS had with the original
organization. Your home PC could have a license intended for some
corporate excursion. It works, just fine. But I, being an OS-obsessed
person, could never rely on that, if I could afford to pay Microsoft for
a retail license of Win11 Pro.
That's an *explanation* of what *could* happen, not *proof* of what
*does* actually happen.
Again: We are only hearing this from you, not from any reputable
'news' source.
FYI, I worked in an organization which probably had some 100K Windows
Pro licenses. No way we would sell them if that was not compatible with
the agreement we had with Microsoft. And yes, I still have one of those licenses.
https://www.newegg.com/asus-vivobook-16-2880x1800-oled-intel-core- ultra-7-255h-intel-arc-graphics-gpu-32-gb-memory-1-tb-pcie-g4-ssd-no- hdd-hdd-black/p/N82E16834236727
This laptop caught my attention in an ad email. Nothing wrong with it,
if you're into high-end laptops, but it's so funny how it still comes
with Windows Home. The reason mini PCs have Pro is that they're getting gray-market licenses where Home is not a thing to begin with, this is
why I did "change product key" and paid the $200 for Win11 Pro retail,
on my mini. This laptop would outperform my system by a light year, and
yet it wouldn't serve me any better. Interesting to contemplate.
https://www.newegg.com/asus-vivobook-16-2880x1800-oled-intel-core-
ultra-7-255h-intel-arc-graphics-gpu-32-gb-memory-1-tb-pcie-g4-ssd-no-
hdd-hdd-black/p/N82E16834236727
This laptop caught my attention in an ad email. Nothing wrong with
it, if you're into high-end laptops, but it's so funny how it still
comes with Windows Home. The reason mini PCs have Pro is that they're
getting gray-market licenses where Home is not a thing to begin with,
this is why I did "change product key" and paid the $200 for Win11 Pro
retail, on my mini. This laptop would outperform my system by a light
year, and yet it wouldn't serve me any better. Interesting to
contemplate.
And you posted this in CSMA...
...why?
On 8/18/2026 11:40 AM, Alan wrote:
https://www.newegg.com/asus-vivobook-16-2880x1800-oled-intel-core-
ultra-7-255h-intel-arc-graphics-gpu-32-gb-memory-1-tb-pcie-g4-ssd-no-
hdd-hdd-black/p/N82E16834236727
This laptop caught my attention in an ad email. Nothing wrong with
it, if you're into high-end laptops, but it's so funny how it still
comes with Windows Home. The reason mini PCs have Pro is that
they're getting gray-market licenses where Home is not a thing to
begin with, this is why I did "change product key" and paid the $200
for Win11 Pro retail, on my mini. This laptop would outperform my
system by a light year, and yet it wouldn't serve me any better.
Interesting to contemplate.
And you posted this in CSMA...
...why?
Alan, now now, did you click the link?
It's an expensive Windows
laptop. The kind of thing that the PC world would try to lure an Apple
user to buy, if they'd divorce themselves from the Apple cult.
I'mI've forgotten more about personal computers than you'll ever know.
happier with a commodity computer, but then again I don't want a laptop,
so there's just no reason I'd possibly have to use something other than
what I am. To directly answer your question, advocating a Mac requires knowing something about its competition.
And you posted this in CSMA...
...why?
Alan, now now, did you click the link?
Nope. Why would I?
It's an expensive Windows laptop. The kind of thing that the PC
world would try to lure an Apple user to buy, if they'd divorce
themselves from the Apple cult.
Again, you imagine things that just aren't so.
I'm happier with a commodity computer, but then again I don't want a
laptop, so there's just no reason I'd possibly have to use something
other than what I am. To directly answer your question, advocating a
Mac requires knowing something about its competition.
I've forgotten more about personal computers than you'll ever know.
On 8/18/2026 12:08 PM, Alan wrote:
And you posted this in CSMA...
...why?
Alan, now now, did you click the link?
Nope. Why would I?
If you weren't a snob and a bore.
It's an expensive Windows laptop. The kind of thing that the PC
world would try to lure an Apple user to buy, if they'd divorce
themselves from the Apple cult.
Again, you imagine things that just aren't so.
It's not imagination, Apple has you by the balls, dude.
I'm happier with a commodity computer, but then again I don't want a
laptop, so there's just no reason I'd possibly have to use something
other than what I am. To directly answer your question, advocating a
Mac requires knowing something about its competition.
I've forgotten more about personal computers than you'll ever know.
My ass. I know a lot, too, sir. You're not the only game in town.Microsoft Office is... ...adequate for it's purpose.
You're arrogant. It shows, too, when you're dismissive of realities of
the market for computer tech. You play up Apple's viability in ways
that only a real fanboy could possibly do, it's so funny, hardcore
people just see the Mac universe and laugh. The best software for Mac
is made by Microsoft (Office for Mac)*, and Windows affords adaptation
as much as one could want, Apple is merely the shepherd of its cult, not really innovating, not really creating anything except hardware concepts that price most people out.
* Notwithstanding the Unix nature of macOS, and specific professional
apps that 99% of users don't have.
On 8/18/2026 11:25 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
I will explain this very simply: Microsoft sells a lot of Windows Prohttps://www.newegg.com/asus-vivobook-16-2880x1800-oled-intel-core-ultra-7-255h-intel-arc-graphics-gpu-32-gb-memory-1-tb-pcie-g4-ssd-no-hdd-hdd-black/p/N82E16834236727
This laptop caught my attention in an ad email. Nothing wrong with it, >>>> if you're into high-end laptops, but it's so funny how it still comes >>>> with Windows Home. The reason mini PCs have Pro is that they're getting >>>> gray-market licenses where Home is not a thing to begin with,
You keep saying this, but I have yet to see proof that this (Mini-PCs >>> with gray-market Pro licenses) is common practice.
I've seen many reviews of all kinds of Mini-PCs and none mention this >>> alleged issue.
And I have no reason to suspect that the Pro license of my (Beelink >>> EQR5) Mini-PC is a "gray-market" one.
What made you conclude that the Pro license which came with your
Mini-PC was a 'gray-market' one?
Winston, any wisdom on how to check the (non-)grayness of a license? >>
licenses to organizations, when they are no longer used or go unused the >> organizations sell them to various gray-market distributors, it's
perfectly legitimate in terms of saying "screw MS, I will obtain Windows >> cheap if I want", it will be supported and activated, but doesn't in
actuality follow the license agreement MS had with the original
organization. Your home PC could have a license intended for some
corporate excursion. It works, just fine. But I, being an OS-obsessed
person, could never rely on that, if I could afford to pay Microsoft for >> a retail license of Win11 Pro.
That's an *explanation* of what *could* happen, not *proof* of what *does* actually happen.
Again: We are only hearing this from you, not from any reputable
'news' source.
FYI, I worked in an organization which probably had some 100K Windows Pro licenses. No way we would sell them if that was not compatible with
the agreement we had with Microsoft. And yes, I still have one of those licenses.
Yeah but think for two seconds, dude, these are semi-OEMs in China
marketing a commodity computer to consumers, they don't have an
agreement with MS, that's why it's Pro and not Home, it's gray-market, sourced from an organization that previously obtained the licenses from Microsoft. There is zilch way you'd get Win11 Pro from a China-based company at a commodity price, if it were a *genuinely* valid license.
MS does not care, though, they want people to use the OS.
And you posted this in CSMA...
...why?
Alan, now now, did you click the link?
Nope. Why would I?
If you weren't a snob and a bore.
Nope. It's that I have no interest in buying a computer that can't run macOS.
It's an expensive Windows laptop. The kind of thing that the PC
world would try to lure an Apple user to buy, if they'd divorce
themselves from the Apple cult.
Again, you imagine things that just aren't so.
It's not imagination, Apple has you by the balls, dude.
Apple makes computers that I find to be far superior for me to use.
And my professional experience doing computer support work has taught me that those who also use Macs require far far less support from me.
I'm happier with a commodity computer, but then again I don't want
a laptop, so there's just no reason I'd possibly have to use
something other than what I am. To directly answer your question,
advocating a Mac requires knowing something about its competition.
I've forgotten more about personal computers than you'll ever know.
My ass. I know a lot, too, sir. You're not the only game in town.
You're arrogant. It shows, too, when you're dismissive of realities
of the market for computer tech. You play up Apple's viability in
ways that only a real fanboy could possibly do, it's so funny,
hardcore people just see the Mac universe and laugh. The best
software for Mac is made by Microsoft (Office for Mac)*, and Windows
affords adaptation as much as one could want, Apple is merely the
shepherd of its cult, not really innovating, not really creating
anything except hardware concepts that price most people out.
* Notwithstanding the Unix nature of macOS, and specific professional
apps that 99% of users don't have.
Microsoft Office is... ...adequate for it's purpose.
But name one piece of software for Windows that you can't find an
equivalent or better replacement for it for use with macOS.
I will explain this very simply: Microsoft sells a lot of Windows Pro >>>> licenses to organizations, when they are no longer used or go unused the >>>> organizations sell them to various gray-market distributors, it'shttps://www.newegg.com/asus-vivobook-16-2880x1800-oled-intel-core-ultra-7-255h-intel-arc-graphics-gpu-32-gb-memory-1-tb-pcie-g4-ssd-no-hdd-hdd-black/p/N82E16834236727
This laptop caught my attention in an ad email. Nothing wrong with it, >>>>>> if you're into high-end laptops, but it's so funny how it still comes >>>>>> with Windows Home. The reason mini PCs have Pro is that they're getting >>>>>> gray-market licenses where Home is not a thing to begin with,
You keep saying this, but I have yet to see proof that this (Mini-PCs
with gray-market Pro licenses) is common practice.
I've seen many reviews of all kinds of Mini-PCs and none mention this
alleged issue.
And I have no reason to suspect that the Pro license of my (Beelink >>>>> EQR5) Mini-PC is a "gray-market" one.
What made you conclude that the Pro license which came with your >>>>> Mini-PC was a 'gray-market' one?
Winston, any wisdom on how to check the (non-)grayness of a license? >>>>
perfectly legitimate in terms of saying "screw MS, I will obtain Windows >>>> cheap if I want", it will be supported and activated, but doesn't in
actuality follow the license agreement MS had with the original
organization. Your home PC could have a license intended for some
corporate excursion. It works, just fine. But I, being an OS-obsessed >>>> person, could never rely on that, if I could afford to pay Microsoft for >>>> a retail license of Win11 Pro.
That's an *explanation* of what *could* happen, not *proof* of what
*does* actually happen.
Again: We are only hearing this from you, not from any reputable
'news' source.
FYI, I worked in an organization which probably had some 100K Windows >>> Pro licenses. No way we would sell them if that was not compatible with
the agreement we had with Microsoft. And yes, I still have one of those
licenses.
Yeah but think for two seconds, dude, these are semi-OEMs in China
marketing a commodity computer to consumers, they don't have an
agreement with MS, that's why it's Pro and not Home, it's gray-market,
sourced from an organization that previously obtained the licenses from
Microsoft. There is zilch way you'd get Win11 Pro from a China-based
company at a commodity price, if it were a *genuinely* valid license.
MS does not care, though, they want people to use the OS.
In short: Just FUD, not even urban legend.
When you have some proof, we'll see.
Enjoy your Mini-PC. My wife enjoys hers and so do I.
EOD.
https://www.newegg.com/asus-vivobook-16-2880x1800-oled-intel-core-ultra-7-255h-intel-arc-graphics-gpu-32-gb-memory-1-tb-pcie-g4-ssd-no-hdd-hdd-black/p/N82E16834236727
This laptop caught my attention in an ad email. Nothing wrong with it, if you're into high-end laptops, but it's so funny how it still comes with Windows Home. The reason mini PCs have Pro is that they're getting gray-market licenses where Home is not a thing to begin with, this is why I did "change product key" and paid the $200 for Win11 Pro retail, on my mini. This laptop would outperform my system by a light year, and yet it wouldn't serve me any better. Interesting to contemplate.
You're
the payee.
On 8/18/2026 1:19 PM, Alan wrote:
And you posted this in CSMA...
...why?
Alan, now now, did you click the link?
Nope. Why would I?
If you weren't a snob and a bore.
Nope. It's that I have no interest in buying a computer that can't run
macOS.
Wow. That's dedication. Literally Apple controls what computers that
would be and you're cool with it.
It's an expensive Windows laptop. The kind of thing that the PC
world would try to lure an Apple user to buy, if they'd divorce
themselves from the Apple cult.
Again, you imagine things that just aren't so.
It's not imagination, Apple has you by the balls, dude.
Apple makes computers that I find to be far superior for me to use.
That's laughable. If I can do what I'm doing with a commodity mini PC, macOS is just a snob luxury brand, nothing more. A cash cow. You're
the payee. (But again, there are specific things Macs can do that are pretty damn elite, too, just not common enough to be relevant here.)
And my professional experience doing computer support work has taught
me that those who also use Macs require far far less support from me.
Sure, I buy it, it's easier to use because it holds your hand. It's a
nice friend. Some people like a little more pizzazz.
I'm happier with a commodity computer, but then again I don't want >>>>> a laptop, so there's just no reason I'd possibly have to use
something other than what I am. To directly answer your question,
advocating a Mac requires knowing something about its competition.
I've forgotten more about personal computers than you'll ever know.
My ass. I know a lot, too, sir. You're not the only game in town.
You're arrogant. It shows, too, when you're dismissive of realities
of the market for computer tech. You play up Apple's viability in
ways that only a real fanboy could possibly do, it's so funny,
hardcore people just see the Mac universe and laugh. The best
software for Mac is made by Microsoft (Office for Mac)*, and Windows
affords adaptation as much as one could want, Apple is merely the
shepherd of its cult, not really innovating, not really creating
anything except hardware concepts that price most people out.
* Notwithstanding the Unix nature of macOS, and specific professional
apps that 99% of users don't have.
Microsoft Office is... ...adequate for it's purpose.
Without MS producing Office for Mac, I wouldn't really see the Mac
platform as a viable entity. Of course, MS is happy to provide it, as
they are friendly to Linux as well.
But name one piece of software for Windows that you can't find an
equivalent or better replacement for it for use with macOS.
It depends on parameters, if we're including stuff that's actually Unix software, macOS is as good as Windows or Linux. If we're limiting the discussion to Apple-GUI-centric apps, Apple wins the elite video editing game hands down, pretty much wins Adobe, and even MS Office is better onSo you cannot name a single piece of Windows software you use that is
Mac than its own OS platform, but it breaks down in being something for
an audience that wants the best overall software *without* treating
macOS as Unix. In other words, the best Mac experience really comes
from high-end applications and its Unix compatibility, not from everyday apps you download, which are crapware, it's why I would never spend a
dime on Apple junk again. Windows is a behemoth but it's a universe of available software, at the end of the day, and beats out Apple's cult,
and even Linux, which is the best OS, but doesn't have quite the
software selection to match the Windows native platform.
And you posted this in CSMA...
...why?
Alan, now now, did you click the link?
Nope. Why would I?
If you weren't a snob and a bore.
Nope. It's that I have no interest in buying a computer that can't
run macOS.
Wow. That's dedication. Literally Apple controls what computers that
would be and you're cool with it.
Obviously.
They make a product I find extremely pleasant and efficient to use.
I know how to use both kinds with great facility. I have a PC across the room for me I use for troubleshooting client issues from time to time,
but I accessing using the (as always with Microsoft) very poorly named "Windows" application on my Mac.
It used to be called "Microsoft Remote Desktop" but apparently a name
that transparent was a problem, so they changed it to something that
would be less descriptive of its actual function.
And my professional experience doing computer support work has taught
me that those who also use Macs require far far less support from me.
Sure, I buy it, it's easier to use because it holds your hand. It's a
nice friend. Some people like a little more pizzazz.
What more "pizzazz" to you get, Joel?
I'm happier with a commodity computer, but then again I don't
want a laptop, so there's just no reason I'd possibly have to use >>>>>> something other than what I am. To directly answer your question, >>>>>> advocating a Mac requires knowing something about its competition.
I've forgotten more about personal computers than you'll ever know.
My ass. I know a lot, too, sir. You're not the only game in town.
You're arrogant. It shows, too, when you're dismissive of realities
of the market for computer tech. You play up Apple's viability in
ways that only a real fanboy could possibly do, it's so funny,
hardcore people just see the Mac universe and laugh. The best
software for Mac is made by Microsoft (Office for Mac)*, and Windows
affords adaptation as much as one could want, Apple is merely the
shepherd of its cult, not really innovating, not really creating
anything except hardware concepts that price most people out.
* Notwithstanding the Unix nature of macOS, and specific
professional apps that 99% of users don't have.
Microsoft Office is... ...adequate for it's purpose.
Without MS producing Office for Mac, I wouldn't really see the Mac
platform as a viable entity. Of course, MS is happy to provide it, as
they are friendly to Linux as well.
At this point, they'd get huge backlash if they cancelled it.
And there is no Microsoft Office for Linux, so I don't know what you
mean by "friendly">
But name one piece of software for Windows that you can't find an
equivalent or better replacement for it for use with macOS.
It depends on parameters, if we're including stuff that's actually
Unix software, macOS is as good as Windows or Linux. If we're
limiting the discussion to Apple-GUI-centric apps, Apple wins the
elite video editing game hands down, pretty much wins Adobe, and even
MS Office is better on Mac than its own OS platform, but it breaks
down in being something for an audience that wants the best overall
software *without* treating macOS as Unix. In other words, the best
Mac experience really comes from high-end applications and its Unix
compatibility, not from everyday apps you download, which are
crapware, it's why I would never spend a dime on Apple junk again.
Windows is a behemoth but it's a universe of available software, at
the end of the day, and beats out Apple's cult, and even Linux, which
is the best OS, but doesn't have quite the software selection to match
the Windows native platform.
So you cannot name a single piece of Windows software you use that is
better than anything you could get to replace it on macOS.
Got it.
On 8/18/2026 3:09 PM, Alan wrote:
And you posted this in CSMA...
...why?
Alan, now now, did you click the link?
Nope. Why would I?
If you weren't a snob and a bore.
Nope. It's that I have no interest in buying a computer that can't
run macOS.
Wow. That's dedication. Literally Apple controls what computers
that would be and you're cool with it.
Obviously.
They make a product I find extremely pleasant and efficient to use.
I know how to use both kinds with great facility. I have a PC across
the room for me I use for troubleshooting client issues from time to
time, but I accessing using the (as always with Microsoft) very poorly
named "Windows" application on my Mac.
It used to be called "Microsoft Remote Desktop" but apparently a name
that transparent was a problem, so they changed it to something that
would be less descriptive of its actual function.
Sounds like what they'd do with such a thing, I guess.
And my professional experience doing computer support work has
taught me that those who also use Macs require far far less support
from me.
Sure, I buy it, it's easier to use because it holds your hand. It's
a nice friend. Some people like a little more pizzazz.
What more "pizzazz" to you get, Joel?
Windows and Linux are more oriented toward making things happen, not
just costing money to exist and somewhat adequately serving functions of software.
My ass. I know a lot, too, sir. You're not the only game in town. >>>>> You're arrogant. It shows, too, when you're dismissive ofI'm happier with a commodity computer, but then again I don't
want a laptop, so there's just no reason I'd possibly have to use >>>>>>> something other than what I am. To directly answer your
question, advocating a Mac requires knowing something about its >>>>>>> competition.
I've forgotten more about personal computers than you'll ever know. >>>>>
realities of the market for computer tech. You play up Apple's
viability in ways that only a real fanboy could possibly do, it's
so funny, hardcore people just see the Mac universe and laugh. The >>>>> best software for Mac is made by Microsoft (Office for Mac)*, and
Windows affords adaptation as much as one could want, Apple is
merely the shepherd of its cult, not really innovating, not really
creating anything except hardware concepts that price most people out. >>>>>
* Notwithstanding the Unix nature of macOS, and specific
professional apps that 99% of users don't have.
Microsoft Office is... ...adequate for it's purpose.
Without MS producing Office for Mac, I wouldn't really see the Mac
platform as a viable entity. Of course, MS is happy to provide it,
as they are friendly to Linux as well.
At this point, they'd get huge backlash if they cancelled it.
They like it, they should, it's a stellar product, unlike the native
Office, I find that something else. I have the apps but don't use them
when LibreOffice is available.
And there is no Microsoft Office for Linux, so I don't know what you
mean by "friendly">
Friendly in being cross-platform generally, not that they spend so much
time on Linux development, but it's a side project with WSL 2 and interoperability of Windows and any Unix platform.
But name one piece of software for Windows that you can't find an
equivalent or better replacement for it for use with macOS.
It depends on parameters, if we're including stuff that's actually
Unix software, macOS is as good as Windows or Linux. If we're
limiting the discussion to Apple-GUI-centric apps, Apple wins the
elite video editing game hands down, pretty much wins Adobe, and even
MS Office is better on Mac than its own OS platform, but it breaks
down in being something for an audience that wants the best overall
software *without* treating macOS as Unix. In other words, the best
Mac experience really comes from high-end applications and its Unix
compatibility, not from everyday apps you download, which are
crapware, it's why I would never spend a dime on Apple junk again.
Windows is a behemoth but it's a universe of available software, at
the end of the day, and beats out Apple's cult, and even Linux, which
is the best OS, but doesn't have quite the software selection to
match the Windows native platform.
So you cannot name a single piece of Windows software you use that is
better than anything you could get to replace it on macOS.
Got it.
It's not a matter of naming apps, it's a matter of experiencing anAnd you've never...
overall better ecosystem, not being the odd ball as it were.
And my professional experience doing computer support work has
taught me that those who also use Macs require far far less support >>>>> from me.
Sure, I buy it, it's easier to use because it holds your hand. It's
a nice friend. Some people like a little more pizzazz.
What more "pizzazz" to you get, Joel?
Windows and Linux are more oriented toward making things happen, not
just costing money to exist and somewhat adequately serving functions
of software.
Another non-answer answer.
But name one piece of software for Windows that you can't find an
equivalent or better replacement for it for use with macOS.
It depends on parameters, if we're including stuff that's actually
Unix software, macOS is as good as Windows or Linux. If we're
limiting the discussion to Apple-GUI-centric apps, Apple wins the
elite video editing game hands down, pretty much wins Adobe, and
even MS Office is better on Mac than its own OS platform, but it
breaks down in being something for an audience that wants the best
overall software *without* treating macOS as Unix. In other words,
the best Mac experience really comes from high-end applications and
its Unix compatibility, not from everyday apps you download, which
are crapware, it's why I would never spend a dime on Apple junk
again. Windows is a behemoth but it's a universe of available
software, at the end of the day, and beats out Apple's cult, and
even Linux, which is the best OS, but doesn't have quite the
software selection to match the Windows native platform.
So you cannot name a single piece of Windows software you use that is
better than anything you could get to replace it on macOS.
Got it.
It's not a matter of naming apps, it's a matter of experiencing an
overall better ecosystem, not being the odd ball as it were.
And you've never...
...NOT EVEN ONCE...
...articulated...
(Have you looked that up yet?)
...a single way the ecosystem is "better".
On 8/18/2026 5:05 PM, Alan wrote:
And my professional experience doing computer support work has
taught me that those who also use Macs require far far less
support from me.
Sure, I buy it, it's easier to use because it holds your hand.
It's a nice friend. Some people like a little more pizzazz.
What more "pizzazz" to you get, Joel?
Windows and Linux are more oriented toward making things happen, not
just costing money to exist and somewhat adequately serving functions
of software.
Another non-answer answer.
macOS apps are, occasionally, great, but largely mediocre. But if I
were judging this on MS Office, the Mac would be the better platform.
It's ironic, I guess. I liked the feel of Office developed for the Mac ecosystem, and yet I only want Outlook out of what I paid for 365 on Windows.
But name one piece of software for Windows that you can't find an >>>>>> equivalent or better replacement for it for use with macOS.
It depends on parameters, if we're including stuff that's actually
Unix software, macOS is as good as Windows or Linux. If we're
limiting the discussion to Apple-GUI-centric apps, Apple wins the
elite video editing game hands down, pretty much wins Adobe, and
even MS Office is better on Mac than its own OS platform, but it
breaks down in being something for an audience that wants the best
overall software *without* treating macOS as Unix. In other words, >>>>> the best Mac experience really comes from high-end applications and >>>>> its Unix compatibility, not from everyday apps you download, which
are crapware, it's why I would never spend a dime on Apple junk
again. Windows is a behemoth but it's a universe of available
software, at the end of the day, and beats out Apple's cult, and
even Linux, which is the best OS, but doesn't have quite the
software selection to match the Windows native platform.
So you cannot name a single piece of Windows software you use that
is better than anything you could get to replace it on macOS.
Got it.
It's not a matter of naming apps, it's a matter of experiencing an
overall better ecosystem, not being the odd ball as it were.
And you've never...
...NOT EVEN ONCE...
...articulated...
(Have you looked that up yet?)
...a single way the ecosystem is "better".
It's just what I experienced with macOS versus Windows or Linux.So you haven't looked up what "articulate" means.
macOS apps are, occasionally, great, but largely mediocre. But if I
were judging this on MS Office, the Mac would be the better platform.
It's ironic, I guess. I liked the feel of Office developed for the
Mac ecosystem, and yet I only want Outlook out of what I paid for 365
on Windows.
Give an example of a macOS app that is "mediocre" compared to what you
can get on Window or Linux.
Just one.
But name one piece of software for Windows that you can't find an >>>>>>> equivalent or better replacement for it for use with macOS.
It depends on parameters, if we're including stuff that's actually >>>>>> Unix software, macOS is as good as Windows or Linux. If we're
limiting the discussion to Apple-GUI-centric apps, Apple wins the >>>>>> elite video editing game hands down, pretty much wins Adobe, and
even MS Office is better on Mac than its own OS platform, but it
breaks down in being something for an audience that wants the best >>>>>> overall software *without* treating macOS as Unix. In other
words, the best Mac experience really comes from high-end
applications and its Unix compatibility, not from everyday apps
you download, which are crapware, it's why I would never spend a
dime on Apple junk again. Windows is a behemoth but it's a
universe of available software, at the end of the day, and beats
out Apple's cult, and even Linux, which is the best OS, but
doesn't have quite the software selection to match the Windows
native platform.
So you cannot name a single piece of Windows software you use that
is better than anything you could get to replace it on macOS.
Got it.
It's not a matter of naming apps, it's a matter of experiencing an
overall better ecosystem, not being the odd ball as it were.
And you've never...
...NOT EVEN ONCE...
...articulated...
(Have you looked that up yet?)
...a single way the ecosystem is "better".
It's just what I experienced with macOS versus Windows or Linux.
So you haven't looked up what "articulate" means.
I'm asking you for something SPECIFIC, doofus.
On 8/18/2026 5:41 PM, Alan wrote:
macOS apps are, occasionally, great, but largely mediocre. But if I
were judging this on MS Office, the Mac would be the better platform.
It's ironic, I guess. I liked the feel of Office developed for the
Mac ecosystem, and yet I only want Outlook out of what I paid for 365
on Windows.
Give an example of a macOS app that is "mediocre" compared to what you
can get on Window or Linux.
Just one.
IRC client.
But name one piece of software for Windows that you can't find >>>>>>>> an equivalent or better replacement for it for use with macOS.
It depends on parameters, if we're including stuff that's
actually Unix software, macOS is as good as Windows or Linux. If >>>>>>> we're limiting the discussion to Apple-GUI-centric apps, Apple
wins the elite video editing game hands down, pretty much wins
Adobe, and even MS Office is better on Mac than its own OS
platform, but it breaks down in being something for an audience >>>>>>> that wants the best overall software *without* treating macOS as >>>>>>> Unix. In other words, the best Mac experience really comes from >>>>>>> high-end applications and its Unix compatibility, not from
everyday apps you download, which are crapware, it's why I would >>>>>>> never spend a dime on Apple junk again. Windows is a behemoth but >>>>>>> it's a universe of available software, at the end of the day, and >>>>>>> beats out Apple's cult, and even Linux, which is the best OS, but >>>>>>> doesn't have quite the software selection to match the Windows
native platform.
So you cannot name a single piece of Windows software you use that >>>>>> is better than anything you could get to replace it on macOS.
Got it.
It's not a matter of naming apps, it's a matter of experiencing an
overall better ecosystem, not being the odd ball as it were.
And you've never...
...NOT EVEN ONCE...
...articulated...
(Have you looked that up yet?)
...a single way the ecosystem is "better".
It's just what I experienced with macOS versus Windows or Linux.
So you haven't looked up what "articulate" means.
I don't need to look up a word I'm familiar with, Alan.
I'm asking you for something SPECIFIC, doofus.
Win and Lin don't have the lackadaisical motif, the drowned in LSD Steve Jobs ugh I can't use this crapware anymore syndrome (that costs $2000).
macOS apps are, occasionally, great, but largely mediocre. But if I
were judging this on MS Office, the Mac would be the better
platform. It's ironic, I guess. I liked the feel of Office
developed for the Mac ecosystem, and yet I only want Outlook out of
what I paid for 365 on Windows.
Give an example of a macOS app that is "mediocre" compared to what
you can get on Window or Linux.
Just one.
IRC client.
Really? Which IRC client (not actually an individual application)?
But name one piece of software for Windows that you can't find >>>>>>>>> an equivalent or better replacement for it for use with macOS. >>>>>>>>It depends on parameters, if we're including stuff that's
actually Unix software, macOS is as good as Windows or Linux. >>>>>>>> If we're limiting the discussion to Apple-GUI-centric apps,
Apple wins the elite video editing game hands down, pretty much >>>>>>>> wins Adobe, and even MS Office is better on Mac than its own OS >>>>>>>> platform, but it breaks down in being something for an audience >>>>>>>> that wants the best overall software *without* treating macOS as >>>>>>>> Unix. In other words, the best Mac experience really comes from >>>>>>>> high-end applications and its Unix compatibility, not from
everyday apps you download, which are crapware, it's why I would >>>>>>>> never spend a dime on Apple junk again. Windows is a behemoth >>>>>>>> but it's a universe of available software, at the end of the
day, and beats out Apple's cult, and even Linux, which is the >>>>>>>> best OS, but doesn't have quite the software selection to match >>>>>>>> the Windows native platform.
So you cannot name a single piece of Windows software you use
that is better than anything you could get to replace it on macOS. >>>>>>>
Got it.
It's not a matter of naming apps, it's a matter of experiencing an >>>>>> overall better ecosystem, not being the odd ball as it were.
And you've never...
...NOT EVEN ONCE...
...articulated...
(Have you looked that up yet?)
...a single way the ecosystem is "better".
It's just what I experienced with macOS versus Windows or Linux.
So you haven't looked up what "articulate" means.
I don't need to look up a word I'm familiar with, Alan.
You don't seem to understand what it means.
I'm asking you for something SPECIFIC, doofus.
Win and Lin don't have the lackadaisical motif, the drowned in LSD
Steve Jobs ugh I can't use this crapware anymore syndrome (that costs
$2000).
None of that is "SPECIFIC", doofus.
On 8/18/2026 5:54 PM, Alan wrote:
macOS apps are, occasionally, great, but largely mediocre. But if
I were judging this on MS Office, the Mac would be the better
platform. It's ironic, I guess. I liked the feel of Office
developed for the Mac ecosystem, and yet I only want Outlook out of >>>>> what I paid for 365 on Windows.
Give an example of a macOS app that is "mediocre" compared to what
you can get on Window or Linux.
Just one.
IRC client.
Really? Which IRC client (not actually an individual application)?
I owned a MacBook with Snow Leopard, at one time. I ended up buying CrossOver to use mIRC.
But name one piece of software for Windows that you can't find >>>>>>>>>> an equivalent or better replacement for it for use with macOS. >>>>>>>>>It depends on parameters, if we're including stuff that's
actually Unix software, macOS is as good as Windows or Linux. >>>>>>>>> If we're limiting the discussion to Apple-GUI-centric apps, >>>>>>>>> Apple wins the elite video editing game hands down, pretty much >>>>>>>>> wins Adobe, and even MS Office is better on Mac than its own OS >>>>>>>>> platform, but it breaks down in being something for an audience >>>>>>>>> that wants the best overall software *without* treating macOS >>>>>>>>> as Unix. In other words, the best Mac experience really comes >>>>>>>>> from high-end applications and its Unix compatibility, not from >>>>>>>>> everyday apps you download, which are crapware, it's why I
would never spend a dime on Apple junk again. Windows is a
behemoth but it's a universe of available software, at the end >>>>>>>>> of the day, and beats out Apple's cult, and even Linux, which >>>>>>>>> is the best OS, but doesn't have quite the software selection >>>>>>>>> to match the Windows native platform.
So you cannot name a single piece of Windows software you use >>>>>>>> that is better than anything you could get to replace it on macOS. >>>>>>>>
Got it.
It's not a matter of naming apps, it's a matter of experiencing >>>>>>> an overall better ecosystem, not being the odd ball as it were.
And you've never...
...NOT EVEN ONCE...
...articulated...
(Have you looked that up yet?)
...a single way the ecosystem is "better".
It's just what I experienced with macOS versus Windows or Linux.
So you haven't looked up what "articulate" means.
I don't need to look up a word I'm familiar with, Alan.
You don't seem to understand what it means.
Articulate like make one's thoughts spoken out loud in a recognizable way.
I'm asking you for something SPECIFIC, doofus.
Win and Lin don't have the lackadaisical motif, the drowned in LSD
Steve Jobs ugh I can't use this crapware anymore syndrome (that costs
$2000).
None of that is "SPECIFIC", doofus.
It isn't specific. It's most of the crap apps that exist for your lameThis is more word salad from you that means nothing.
OS. Microsoft Office and presumably Adobe's stuff notwithstanding, and video editing.
Give an example of a macOS app that is "mediocre" compared to what
you can get on Window or Linux.
Just one.
IRC client.
Really? Which IRC client (not actually an individual application)?
I owned a MacBook with Snow Leopard, at one time. I ended up buying
CrossOver to use mIRC.
<https://computercity.com/software/macos/irc-client-for-mac>
Show how mIRC is better than all of those.
I'm asking you for something SPECIFIC, doofus.
Win and Lin don't have the lackadaisical motif, the drowned in LSD
Steve Jobs ugh I can't use this crapware anymore syndrome (that
costs $2000).
None of that is "SPECIFIC", doofus.
It isn't specific. It's most of the crap apps that exist for your
lame OS. Microsoft Office and presumably Adobe's stuff
notwithstanding, and video editing.
This is more word salad from you that means nothing.
This is more word salad from you that means nothing.
On 8/18/2026 6:09 PM, Alan wrote:
Give an example of a macOS app that is "mediocre" compared to what >>>>>> you can get on Window or Linux.
Just one.
IRC client.
Really? Which IRC client (not actually an individual application)?
I owned a MacBook with Snow Leopard, at one time. I ended up buying
CrossOver to use mIRC.
<https://computercity.com/software/macos/irc-client-for-mac>
Show how mIRC is better than all of those.
I wasn't comparing it to them at that time. I use IRCCloud, mostly,
now, but have mIRC available for specific functions. In that time when
I had macOS, the several OS X apps I tried for IRC were all lame.
I'm asking you for something SPECIFIC, doofus.
Win and Lin don't have the lackadaisical motif, the drowned in LSD
Steve Jobs ugh I can't use this crapware anymore syndrome (that
costs $2000).
None of that is "SPECIFIC", doofus.
It isn't specific. It's most of the crap apps that exist for your
lame OS. Microsoft Office and presumably Adobe's stuff
notwithstanding, and video editing.
This is more word salad from you that means nothing.
I could try to research the names, of specific apps, to give you anObjectively, you'd rather make vague claims you never support with any specificity.
answer, but I'd rather just not care about Apple and let them be lame
away from me.
Alan wrote on 8/18/2026 5:09 PM:
This is more word salad from you that means nothing.
Nobody can even follow this thread. However, I believe you are
correct. In the end, apple stuff is far superior to all others. Only
fools would buy and use anything else.
Thank you for enlightening all these ignorant people. You can relax now Alan.
Remember folks ... only buy stuff from apple. It's the best. It makes
Alan happy too.
It makes me happy. It makes God happy. Think!
On 8/18/2026 2:08 PM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
You're not getting the point. Microsoft doesn't license 11 Pro on a commodity mini PC, the license is *used by* the manufacturer in a way
that somehow qualifies as being OK to use, because MS doesn't really
care, they know where the money in Windows is, this is merely reusing licenses in a semi-sketchy but largely tolerated way. It's not good
enough for me, as a cognizant consumer, but Microsoft provides a very
simple solution as I explained (the "change product key" function in settings).
That's a 6+8+2 core, with a turbo of 115W (and cooling for 50 watts).
https://www.asus.com/ca-en/laptops/for-home/vivobook/asus-vivobook-s-16-oled-s5606/
Windows 11 Pro
Joel W. Crump <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
On 8/18/2026 2:08 PM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
[Lots and lots deleted.]
You're not getting the point. Microsoft doesn't license 11 Pro on a
commodity mini PC, the license is *used by* the manufacturer in a way
that somehow qualifies as being OK to use, because MS doesn't really
care, they know where the money in Windows is, this is merely reusing
licenses in a semi-sketchy but largely tolerated way. It's not good
enough for me, as a cognizant consumer, but Microsoft provides a very
simple solution as I explained (the "change product key" function in
settings).
I'm "not getting the point", because you don't *have* a point, you
only have FUD.
You have no way of knowing whether or not Microsoft sells Windows 11
Pro to Mini-PC manufacturers.
You *claim* that Mini-PC manufacturers get their licences in some kind
of 'gray' way from other parties which no longer need those licenses,
but you provide no proof of said claim. None, zilch, nada.
If you are convinced that the Pro license which came with your Mini-PC
was dodgy and therefor you were willing to spend $200 on a legit
license, then that's of course your prerogative. Accusing the whole
Mini-PC industry for using dodgy licences, is not.
Once more: EOD.
On 2026-08-18 15:32, Hank Rogers wrote:
Alan wrote on 8/18/2026 5:09 PM:
This is more word salad from you that means nothing.
Nobody can even follow this thread. However, I believe you are
correct. In the end, apple stuff is far superior to all others. Only
fools would buy and use anything else.
Thank you for enlightening all these ignorant people. You can relax
now Alan.
Remember folks ... only buy stuff from apple. It's the best. It
makes Alan happy too.
It makes me happy. It makes God happy. Think!
No one is FORCING you to read this thread, are they?
You're not getting the point. Microsoft doesn't license 11 Pro on a
commodity mini PC, the license is *used by* the manufacturer in a way
that somehow qualifies as being OK to use, because MS doesn't really
care, they know where the money in Windows is, this is merely reusing
licenses in a semi-sketchy but largely tolerated way. It's not good
enough for me, as a cognizant consumer, but Microsoft provides a very
simple solution as I explained (the "change product key" function in
settings).
I'm "not getting the point", because you don't *have* a point, you
only have FUD.
You have no way of knowing whether or not Microsoft sells Windows 11
Pro to Mini-PC manufacturers.
You *claim* that Mini-PC manufacturers get their licences in some kind
of 'gray' way from other parties which no longer need those licenses,
but you provide no proof of said claim. None, zilch, nada.
If you are convinced that the Pro license which came with your Mini-PC
was dodgy and therefor you were willing to spend $200 on a legit
license, then that's of course your prerogative. Accusing the whole
Mini-PC industry for using dodgy licences, is not.
Once more: EOD.
On 08/19/2026 11:40 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
Joel W. Crump <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
You're not getting the point. Microsoft doesn't license 11 Pro on a
commodity mini PC, the license is *used by* the manufacturer in a way
that somehow qualifies as being OK to use, because MS doesn't really
care, they know where the money in Windows is, this is merely reusing
licenses in a semi-sketchy but largely tolerated way. It's not good
enough for me, as a cognizant consumer, but Microsoft provides a very
simple solution as I explained (the "change product key" function in
settings).
I'm "not getting the point", because you don't *have* a point, you
only have FUD.
You have no way of knowing whether or not Microsoft sells Windows 11
Pro to Mini-PC manufacturers.
You *claim* that Mini-PC manufacturers get their licences in some kind
of 'gray' way from other parties which no longer need those licenses,
but you provide no proof of said claim. None, zilch, nada.
If you are convinced that the Pro license which came with your Mini-PC
was dodgy and therefor you were willing to spend $200 on a legit
license, then that's of course your prerogative. Accusing the whole
Mini-PC industry for using dodgy licences, is not.
Once more: EOD.
Yes, its all FUD without proof of source.
It's unlikely organizations sell unused or no longer in service os to
third party markets. Organizations contract for a preset number of licenses. Unused licenses are a wasted asset. Perpetual licenses stay
vaild forever, subscription licenses are valid for the duration of the subscription, unused subscriptions(also a wasted expense) until the next renewal where the quantity(# subscriptions) can be reduced.
Unused are not resold. They are retained to meet current or future
software audits(internal and external for compliance).
Volume license resellers do have options for unused licenses and market
for resale at discount pricing...but only after approval from MSFT.
- which is why certain editions of Windows and Office periodically
appear for consumer purchase. These are direct to consumer, not to OEM retailers of hardware for sale to consumers.
In summary, the concept of organizations selling to Mini-pc
manufacturers is as you've stated...FUD.
Give an example of a macOS app that is "mediocre" compared to
what you can get on Window or Linux.
Just one.
IRC client.
Really? Which IRC client (not actually an individual application)?
I owned a MacBook with Snow Leopard, at one time. I ended up buying
CrossOver to use mIRC.
<https://computercity.com/software/macos/irc-client-for-mac>
Show how mIRC is better than all of those.
I wasn't comparing it to them at that time. I use IRCCloud, mostly,
now, but have mIRC available for specific functions. In that time
when I had macOS, the several OS X apps I tried for IRC were all lame.
Really? What are these "specific functions"...
...and what apps did yo try?
I'm asking you for something SPECIFIC, doofus.
Win and Lin don't have the lackadaisical motif, the drowned in LSD >>>>>> Steve Jobs ugh I can't use this crapware anymore syndrome (that
costs $2000).
None of that is "SPECIFIC", doofus.
It isn't specific. It's most of the crap apps that exist for your
lame OS. Microsoft Office and presumably Adobe's stuff
notwithstanding, and video editing.
This is more word salad from you that means nothing.
I could try to research the names, of specific apps, to give you an
answer, but I'd rather just not care about Apple and let them be lame
away from me.
Objectively, you'd rather make vague claims you never support with any specificity.
On 8/18/2026 8:42 PM, Alan wrote:
Give an example of a macOS app that is "mediocre" compared to >>>>>>>> what you can get on Window or Linux.
Just one.
IRC client.
Really? Which IRC client (not actually an individual application)?
I owned a MacBook with Snow Leopard, at one time. I ended up
buying CrossOver to use mIRC.
<https://computercity.com/software/macos/irc-client-for-mac>
Show how mIRC is better than all of those.
I wasn't comparing it to them at that time. I use IRCCloud, mostly,
now, but have mIRC available for specific functions. In that time
when I had macOS, the several OS X apps I tried for IRC were all lame.
Really? What are these "specific functions"...
IRCCloud isn't terrific for channel operator functions, I sometimes load mIRC briefly to do something in that regard.
...and what apps did yo try?
As if I'd remember after 16 years?
I'm asking you for something SPECIFIC, doofus.
Win and Lin don't have the lackadaisical motif, the drowned in
LSD Steve Jobs ugh I can't use this crapware anymore syndrome
(that costs $2000).
None of that is "SPECIFIC", doofus.
It isn't specific. It's most of the crap apps that exist for your
lame OS. Microsoft Office and presumably Adobe's stuff
notwithstanding, and video editing.
This is more word salad from you that means nothing.
I could try to research the names, of specific apps, to give you an
answer, but I'd rather just not care about Apple and let them be lame
away from me.
Objectively, you'd rather make vague claims you never support with any
specificity.
Why would I think Mac software has changed enough to impress me (with a
few exceptions, perhaps)?
On 8/19/2026 1:18 PM, ....winston wrote:
On 08/19/2026 11:40 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
Joel W. Crump <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
You're not getting the point. Microsoft doesn't license 11 Pro on a
commodity mini PC, the license is *used by* the manufacturer in a way
that somehow qualifies as being OK to use, because MS doesn't really
care, they know where the money in Windows is, this is merely reusing
licenses in a semi-sketchy but largely tolerated way. It's not good
enough for me, as a cognizant consumer, but Microsoft provides a very
simple solution as I explained (the "change product key" function in
settings).
I'm "not getting the point", because you don't *have* a point, you
only have FUD.
You have no way of knowing whether or not Microsoft sells Windows 11
Pro to Mini-PC manufacturers.
You *claim* that Mini-PC manufacturers get their licences in some kind >>> of 'gray' way from other parties which no longer need those licenses,
but you provide no proof of said claim. None, zilch, nada.
If you are convinced that the Pro license which came with your Mini-PC >>> was dodgy and therefor you were willing to spend $200 on a legit
license, then that's of course your prerogative. Accusing the whole
Mini-PC industry for using dodgy licences, is not.
Once more: EOD.
Yes, its all FUD without proof of source.
It's unlikely organizations sell unused or no longer in service os to third party markets. Organizations contract for a preset number of licenses. Unused licenses are a wasted asset. Perpetual licenses stay vaild forever, subscription licenses are valid for the duration of the subscription, unused subscriptions(also a wasted expense) until the next renewal where the quantity(# subscriptions) can be reduced.
Unused are not resold. They are retained to meet current or future software audits(internal and external for compliance).
Volume license resellers do have options for unused licenses and market for resale at discount pricing...but only after approval from MSFT.
- which is why certain editions of Windows and Office periodically appear for consumer purchase. These are direct to consumer, not to OEM retailers of hardware for sale to consumers.
In summary, the concept of organizations selling to Mini-pc manufacturers is as you've stated...FUD.
Wow, even a so-called expert is wrong. I'm amazed that you are unaware of this phenomenon, but you obviously are. You're wrong.
On Fri, 8/21/2026 5:09 PM, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 8/19/2026 1:18 PM, ....winston wrote:
On 08/19/2026 11:40 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
Joel W. Crump <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
You're not getting the point. Microsoft doesn't license 11 Pro on a >>>>> commodity mini PC, the license is *used by* the manufacturer in a way >>>>> that somehow qualifies as being OK to use, because MS doesn't really >>>>> care, they know where the money in Windows is, this is merely reusing >>>>> licenses in a semi-sketchy but largely tolerated way. It's not good >>>>> enough for me, as a cognizant consumer, but Microsoft provides a very >>>>> simple solution as I explained (the "change product key" function in >>>>> settings).
I'm "not getting the point", because you don't *have* a point, you >>>> only have FUD.
You have no way of knowing whether or not Microsoft sells Windows 11 >>>> Pro to Mini-PC manufacturers.
You *claim* that Mini-PC manufacturers get their licences in some kind >>>> of 'gray' way from other parties which no longer need those licenses,
but you provide no proof of said claim. None, zilch, nada.
If you are convinced that the Pro license which came with your Mini-PC >>>> was dodgy and therefor you were willing to spend $200 on a legit
license, then that's of course your prerogative. Accusing the whole
Mini-PC industry for using dodgy licences, is not.
Once more: EOD.
Yes, its all FUD without proof of source.
It's unlikely organizations sell unused or no longer in service os to third party markets. Organizations contract for a preset number of licenses. Unused licenses are a wasted asset. Perpetual licenses stay vaild forever, subscription licenses are valid for the duration of the subscription, unused subscriptions(also a wasted expense) until the next renewal where the quantity(# subscriptions) can be reduced.
Unused are not resold. They are retained to meet current or future software audits(internal and external for compliance).
Volume license resellers do have options for unused licenses and market for resale at discount pricing...but only after approval from MSFT.
- which is why certain editions of Windows and Office periodically appear for consumer purchase. These are direct to consumer, not to OEM retailers of hardware for sale to consumers.
In summary, the concept of organizations selling to Mini-pc manufacturers is as you've stated...FUD.
Wow, even a so-called expert is wrong. I'm amazed that you are unaware of this phenomenon, but you obviously are. You're wrong.
He's in the business and he has connections. Why wouldn't he know ?
I don't have connections and I don't know what's going on. I know
there is:
MasGrave
( example of activity level https://github.com/topics/massgravel )
Companies selling licenses for $20 on Internet (they will replace, if one is bad)
( Not the same thing as MasGrave )
Since there is no sign of the $20 licenses invalidating themselves (like
some sort of KMS failure from the past), the implication is that the license itself
is perfectly valid (where ever it came from).
At the current time, there are efforts to cut into this practice,
but the article making this statement provided no proof it was
even possible to do that.
What we do know, is if a *company* defrauds Microsoft to the tune of >$500K, Microsoft sends the lawyers after them. For example, even mom & pop computer stores (I have scummy stores in town like that), they can install Windows
and apply a KMS license and do that... 2000 times. If enough people have license failures and contact Microsoft to identify mom & pop, then the lawyers show up at the door. But it's not worth gassing up the
lawyer car, unless the proceeds of the crime are large enough. If you
or I did one illegal thing, it costs too much to chase us down. But smaller operations have been chased down.
If there was "legal leverage" Microsoft could use against
the $20 items, that leverage would have been used by now.
This is an example of a masgrave thread. Notice there are claims
Microsoft Support even uses it, to fix licensing issues. That's
because it has component parts, and it is "carrying out the
ceremony of activation", and the activation is also recorded
on the Microsoft server. That means, if you reinstalled, the
OS would activate again automatically, without any additional
effort. Nuking and paving the OS then, removes some of the possibilities
of a script having malware in it.
https://www.reddit.com/r/WindowsLTSC/comments/1omt5s2/is_masgrave_really_safe/
I wouldn't do that, as it's not worth the bother. Just make sure
any scripts you might download, are legit ones and not altered.
No, I don't know where they are stored. References have been made
to it on USENET, in the past.
Paul
Joel W. Crump wrote on 8/21/2026 4:42 PM:
On 8/18/2026 8:42 PM, Alan wrote:
I owned a MacBook with Snow Leopard, at one time. I ended upGive an example of a macOS app that is "mediocre" compared to >>>>>>>>> what you can get on Window or Linux.
Just one.
IRC client.
Really? Which IRC client (not actually an individual application)? >>>>>>
buying CrossOver to use mIRC.
<https://computercity.com/software/macos/irc-client-for-mac>
Show how mIRC is better than all of those.
I wasn't comparing it to them at that time. I use IRCCloud, mostly,
now, but have mIRC available for specific functions. In that time
when I had macOS, the several OS X apps I tried for IRC were all lame.
Really? What are these "specific functions"...
IRCCloud isn't terrific for channel operator functions, I sometimes
load mIRC briefly to do something in that regard.
...and what apps did yo try?
As if I'd remember after 16 years?
I'm asking you for something SPECIFIC, doofus.
Win and Lin don't have the lackadaisical motif, the drowned in >>>>>>>> LSD Steve Jobs ugh I can't use this crapware anymore syndrome >>>>>>>> (that costs $2000).
None of that is "SPECIFIC", doofus.
It isn't specific. It's most of the crap apps that exist for your >>>>>> lame OS. Microsoft Office and presumably Adobe's stuff
notwithstanding, and video editing.
This is more word salad from you that means nothing.
I could try to research the names, of specific apps, to give you an
answer, but I'd rather just not care about Apple and let them be
lame away from me.
Objectively, you'd rather make vague claims you never support with
any specificity.
Why would I think Mac software has changed enough to impress me (with
a few exceptions, perhaps)?
Apple software doesn't change much. Except to add bling and visual eye candy. Sometimes at the expense of what little functionality it
previously had. But it still sells. That is called success.
That's the thing, the licenses the China semi-OEMs are using are that kind of license, not sold directly by MS and while MS tolerates the practice not truthfully following the license agreement as it was originally sold. That's why I would pay MS directly for a legit license, because to me the validity of intellectual property matters, to others this would simply be paying to get the same thing they already had, and that's fine for most people.
To verify that I'm right is trivially easy with PowerShell, buy one of these devices and check what its license is, then buy the license as I did, replace it with "change product key" in Windows settings, and magically the same PowerShell command will show it as a "retail" license.
That's the thing, the licenses the China semi-OEMs are using are that kind of license, not sold directly by MS and while MS tolerates the practice not truthfully following the license agreement as it was originally sold. That's why I would pay MS directly for a legit license, because to me the validity of intellectual property matters, to others this would simply be paying to get the same thing they already had, and that's fine for most people.
To verify that I'm right is trivially easy with PowerShell, buy one of these devices and check what its license is, then buy the license as I did, replace it with "change product key" in Windows settings, and magically the same PowerShell command will show it as a "retail" license.
Your Mini-PC should have a license key recorded in the ACPI MSDM table.
You can use a Linux like ACPIdump or similar, to dump that table entry.
So not only is the OS activated by the licensing process - instead of
a COA (Certificate Of Authenticity), the machine has the license key
stored in the BIOS. And that means every machine has a custom BIOS image (with the difference being that key).
If you reinstall your OS, you might inadvertently discover that the activation that happens during that install, is actually using
the ACPI MSDM one. So now that you're juggling two keys, if
you ever reinstall, you have to think about which key is
now running the OS.
If there wasn't an ACPI MSDM table in the BIOS, that's the point
I would begin to wonder where the license came from.
If I buy a retail motherboard and build my own PC, those
BIOS do not have the ACPI MSDM entry. But anyone shipping
a computer with a license, in the Win 11 era (since Win8),
that key is in the BIOS. In effect, that's the COA.
If I buy a retail motherboard and build my own PC, those
BIOS do not have the ACPI MSDM entry. But anyone shipping
a computer with a license, in the Win 11 era (since Win8),
that key is in the BIOS. In effect, that's the COA.
Paul
On 2026/8/22 2:33:55, Paul wrote:
If I buy a retail motherboard and build my own PC, thoseI've always assumed that Macrium-imaging my C: partition, along with any other partitions (including hidden, unlettered, etc.) on the disc (SSD) (other than D: which I made and is most of the disc, which I backup differently), would allow me to restore a working - and licenced, if the existing is (I bought the laptop from a small shop with W10 installed) - system in the event of disaster, such as disc failure or very bad
BIOS do not have the ACPI MSDM entry. But anyone shipping
a computer with a license, in the Win 11 era (since Win8),
that key is in the BIOS. In effect, that's the COA.
malware. Is that true - if I were to install a new SSD, boot the Macrium
CD, and restore all the partitions to it from the Macrium backup, would
that still work with what's in the BIOS?
On 8/19/2026 11:40 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
You *claim* that Mini-PC manufacturers get their licences in some kind
of 'gray' way from other parties which no longer need those licenses,
but you provide no proof of said claim. None, zilch, nada.
If you are convinced that the Pro license which came with your Mini-PC
was dodgy and therefor you were willing to spend $200 on a legit
license, then that's of course your prerogative. Accusing the whole
Mini-PC industry for using dodgy licences, is not.
Once more: EOD.
It's only "EOD" when I'm done refuting your lunacy. Why do you think
these devices are priced so low with 11 Pro included?
idea what they'd cost if they were getting 11 Pro sourced directly from MS?
Joel W. Crump <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
On 8/19/2026 11:40 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
You *claim* that Mini-PC manufacturers get their licences in some kind
of 'gray' way from other parties which no longer need those licenses,
but you provide no proof of said claim. None, zilch, nada.
If you are convinced that the Pro license which came with your Mini-PC
was dodgy and therefor you were willing to spend $200 on a legit
license, then that's of course your prerogative. Accusing the whole
Mini-PC industry for using dodgy licences, is not.
Once more: EOD.
It's only "EOD" when I'm done refuting your lunacy. Why do you think
these devices are priced so low with 11 Pro included?
which devices? Provide links of mini-PCs being sold with Pro for low
prices.
On 8/22/2026 9:24 AM, Chris wrote:
which devices? Provide links of mini-PCs being sold with Pro for low
prices.
https://www.amazon.com/Getorli-Desktop-Computer-Business-Education/dp/ B0GTM4FCS4?th=1
That one is the same brand and basic specs as the one I have.
On 2026/8/22 2:33:55, Paul wrote:
[]
If I buy a retail motherboard and build my own PC, thoseI've always assumed that Macrium-imaging my C: partition, along with any other partitions (including hidden, unlettered, etc.) on the disc (SSD) (other than D: which I made and is most of the disc, which I backup differently), would allow me to restore a working - and licenced, if the existing is (I bought the laptop from a small shop with W10 installed) - system in the event of disaster, such as disc failure or very bad
BIOS do not have the ACPI MSDM entry. But anyone shipping
a computer with a license, in the Win 11 era (since Win8),
that key is in the BIOS. In effect, that's the COA.
Paul
malware. Is that true - if I were to install a new SSD, boot the Macrium
CD, and restore all the partitions to it from the Macrium backup, would
that still work with what's in the BIOS?
On Sat, 8/22/2026 7:39 AM, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
On 2026/8/22 2:33:55, Paul wrote:
If I buy a retail motherboard and build my own PC, thoseI've always assumed that Macrium-imaging my C: partition, along with any
BIOS do not have the ACPI MSDM entry. But anyone shipping
a computer with a license, in the Win 11 era (since Win8),
that key is in the BIOS. In effect, that's the COA.
other partitions (including hidden, unlettered, etc.) on the disc (SSD)
(other than D: which I made and is most of the disc, which I backup
differently), would allow me to restore a working - and licenced, if the
existing is (I bought the laptop from a small shop with W10 installed) -
system in the event of disaster, such as disc failure or very bad
malware. Is that true - if I were to install a new SSD, boot the Macrium
CD, and restore all the partitions to it from the Macrium backup, would
that still work with what's in the BIOS?
When the activation happens for that OS, it is recorded on the Microsoft server using a hardware ID.
If you restore from backup, it's my guess the internal state of the
OS is consistent with how it was before. There will be missing things,
such as Windows.edb (Search Indexer file), but everything else will be there. The index will then rebuild itself over the next day or so. The reason
it might be missing, is it won't quiesce during a hot backup (VSS
doesn't work properly for it). Since it is automatically regenerated,
no one cares.
Let us say for a moment, some part that forms the "licensed" state
on the restored PC was missing, then the OS can "check in" using
its hardware ID, and a record of the activation is on the server. Whether
it ever does that, or does that on a regular basis, I don't know.
Probably not, or there would be the occasional report of a failure
related to it.
There is a huge matrix of cha-cha about the license situation,
and nobody wants to read all that this morning :-)
Roughly the "worst situation" happens when you buy a PC
off Ebay which claims to have W10 or W11 on it. It may
arrive seemingly licensed, then a few days later you see
the watermark in the corner. The license in that case,
could include a reference to an MSA that is not the same
as the MSA you're using this morning, and Tech Support
is going to have trouble circling any squares. That's the
situation where the "Joel algorithm" might be required.
A new license, because absolutely nobody can figure out
what the hell the seller did to the PC. Officially Refurbished
PCs usually arrive in firm footing and don't do that, whereas
an Ebay machine "could have lived in a bad neighbourhood" :-)
The Ebay seller could be "double plus incompetent", considering
the ways the situation could be resolved.
I didn't in any way mean to say that the licenses the mini PCs come
with wouldn't *work* - but that if one wants to follow MS's licensing agreements, they are being reused in an invalid way. But it is tolerated.
On 2026/8/22 2:33:55, Paul wrote:
[]
If I buy a retail motherboard and build my own PC, thoseI've always assumed that Macrium-imaging my C: partition, along with any other partitions (including hidden, unlettered, etc.) on the disc (SSD) (other than D: which I made and is most of the disc, which I backup differently), would allow me to restore a working - and licenced, if the existing is (I bought the laptop from a small shop with W10 installed) - system in the event of disaster, such as disc failure or very bad
BIOS do not have the ACPI MSDM entry. But anyone shipping
a computer with a license, in the Win 11 era (since Win8),
that key is in the BIOS. In effect, that's the COA.
Paul
malware. Is that true - if I were to install a new SSD, boot the Macrium
CD, and restore all the partitions to it from the Macrium backup, would
that still work with what's in the BIOS?
On 8/19/2026 11:40 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
You're not getting the point. Microsoft doesn't license 11 Pro on a
commodity mini PC, the license is *used by* the manufacturer in a way
that somehow qualifies as being OK to use, because MS doesn't really
care, they know where the money in Windows is, this is merely reusing
licenses in a semi-sketchy but largely tolerated way. It's not good
enough for me, as a cognizant consumer, but Microsoft provides a very
simple solution as I explained (the "change product key" function in
settings).
I'm "not getting the point", because you don't *have* a point, you
only have FUD.
You have no way of knowing whether or not Microsoft sells Windows 11
Pro to Mini-PC manufacturers.
You *claim* that Mini-PC manufacturers get their licences in some kind of 'gray' way from other parties which no longer need those licenses,
but you provide no proof of said claim. None, zilch, nada.
If you are convinced that the Pro license which came with your Mini-PC was dodgy and therefor you were willing to spend $200 on a legit
license, then that's of course your prerogative. Accusing the whole
Mini-PC industry for using dodgy licences, is not.
Once more: EOD.
It's only "EOD" when I'm done refuting your lunacy. Why do you think
these devices are priced so low with 11 Pro included? Do you have any
idea what they'd cost if they were getting 11 Pro sourced directly from MS?
Joel W. Crump <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
On 8/19/2026 11:40 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
You're not getting the point. Microsoft doesn't license 11 Pro on a
commodity mini PC, the license is *used by* the manufacturer in a way
that somehow qualifies as being OK to use, because MS doesn't really
care, they know where the money in Windows is, this is merely reusing
licenses in a semi-sketchy but largely tolerated way. It's not good
enough for me, as a cognizant consumer, but Microsoft provides a very
simple solution as I explained (the "change product key" function in
settings).
I'm "not getting the point", because you don't *have* a point, you
only have FUD.
You have no way of knowing whether or not Microsoft sells Windows 11 >>> Pro to Mini-PC manufacturers.
You *claim* that Mini-PC manufacturers get their licences in some kind >>> of 'gray' way from other parties which no longer need those licenses,
but you provide no proof of said claim. None, zilch, nada.
If you are convinced that the Pro license which came with your Mini-PC >>> was dodgy and therefor you were willing to spend $200 on a legit
license, then that's of course your prerogative. Accusing the whole
Mini-PC industry for using dodgy licences, is not.
Once more: EOD.
It's only "EOD" when I'm done refuting your lunacy. Why do you think
these devices are priced so low with 11 Pro included? Do you have any
idea what they'd cost if they were getting 11 Pro sourced directly from MS?
*My* lunacy!? You're the one continuously rambling on with your FUD
and innuendo, without any kind of proof, while ignoring the responses
from people who have way, way more expertise and experience in the
matter. You didn't even seem to know where an OEM license is stored
these days!
As to price: An *OEM* Pro license - i.e. in *bulk* would be marginally more expensive than a Home one. Face it, for Joe User, Pro doesn't offer
all that much more than Home.
But feel free to rant on. It seems on this topic (or any topic?),
nobody can stop you.
As long as someone passes the popcorn, I'm fine.
On Sat, 8/22/2026 7:39 AM, J. P. Gilliver wrote:ny
On 2026/8/22 2:33:55, Paul wrote:
[]
If I buy a retail motherboard and build my own PC, thoseI've always assumed that Macrium-imaging my C: partition, along with a
BIOS do not have the ACPI MSDM entry. But anyone shipping
a computer with a license, in the Win 11 era (since Win8),
that key is in the BIOS. In effect, that's the COA.
Paul
)other partitions (including hidden, unlettered, etc.) on the disc (SSD
he(other than D: which I made and is most of the disc, which I backup
differently), would allow me to restore a working - and licenced, if t
-existing is (I bought the laptop from a small shop with W10 installed)
umsystem in the event of disaster, such as disc failure or very bad
malware. Is that true - if I were to install a new SSD, boot the Macri
dCD, and restore all the partitions to it from the Macrium backup, woul
tthat still work with what's in the BIOS?
When the activation happens for that OS, it is recorded on the Microsof
server using a hardware ID.
If you restore from backup, it's my guess the internal state of thethere.
OS is consistent with how it was before. There will be missing things,
such as Windows.edb (Search Indexer file), but everything else will be
The index will then rebuild itself over the next day or so. The reason
it might be missing, is it won't quiesce during a hot backup (VSS
doesn't work properly for it). Since it is automatically regenerated,
no one cares.
Let us say for a moment, some part that forms the "licensed" stateer
on the restored PC was missing, then the OS can "check in" using
its hardware ID, and a record of the activation is on the server. Wheth
it ever does that, or does that on a regular basis, I don't know.
Probably not, or there would be the occasional report of a failure
related to it.
There is a huge matrix of cha-cha about the license situation,
and nobody wants to read all that this morning :-)
Roughly the "worst situation" happens when you buy a PC
off Ebay which claims to have W10 or W11 on it. It may
arrive seemingly licensed, then a few days later you see
the watermark in the corner. The license in that case,
could include a reference to an MSA that is not the same--
as the MSA you're using this morning, and Tech Support
is going to have trouble circling any squares. That's the
situation where the "Joel algorithm" might be required.
A new license, because absolutely nobody can figure out
what the hell the seller did to the PC. Officially Refurbished
PCs usually arrive in firm footing and don't do that, whereas
an Ebay machine "could have lived in a bad neighbourhood" :-)
The Ebay seller could be "double plus incompetent", considering
the ways the situation could be resolved.
Paul
On 2026/8/22 17:58:29, Paul wrote:
When the activation happens for that OS, it is recorded on the Microsoft
server using a hardware ID.
I didn't do the activation; I presume the shop man did it, as (a) it was
a working/running Windows when I got it, and (b) the actual hardware I'm pretty sure predates W10.
If you restore from backup, it's my guess the internal state of the
OS is consistent with how it was before. There will be missing things,
such as Windows.edb (Search Indexer file), but everything else will be there.
The index will then rebuild itself over the next day or so. The reason
it might be missing, is it won't quiesce during a hot backup (VSS
doesn't work properly for it). Since it is automatically regenerated,
no one cares.
If "hot backup" means one done from within Windows, I don't do that: I
make my Macrium backups by cold-booting from the Macrium (6) CD.
Let us say for a moment, some part that forms the "licensed" state
on the restored PC was missing, then the OS can "check in" using
its hardware ID, and a record of the activation is on the server. Whether
it ever does that, or does that on a regular basis, I don't know.
Probably not, or there would be the occasional report of a failure
related to it.
Roughly the "worst situation" happens when you buy a PC
off Ebay which claims to have W10 or W11 on it. It may
arrive seemingly licensed, then a few days later you see
the watermark in the corner. The license in that case,
(No such problems; it's been fine - apart from that weird thing with the
left ctrl key - since I've had it. OK, it's frozen a couple of times in
the last month or so, but that's due to the heat [like most UK homes, I
do not have A/C; I now have it propped up with a big old desk fan
blowing under it].)
On 8/22/2026 9:24 AM, Chris wrote:
Joel W. Crump <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
On 8/19/2026 11:40 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
You *claim* that Mini-PC manufacturers get their licences in some kind >>>> of 'gray' way from other parties which no longer need those licenses,
but you provide no proof of said claim. None, zilch, nada.
If you are convinced that the Pro license which came with your Mini-PC >>>> was dodgy and therefor you were willing to spend $200 on a legit
license, then that's of course your prerogative. Accusing the whole
Mini-PC industry for using dodgy licences, is not.
Once more: EOD.
It's only "EOD" when I'm done refuting your lunacy. Why do you think
these devices are priced so low with 11 Pro included?
which devices? Provide links of mini-PCs being sold with Pro for low
prices.
https://www.amazon.com/Getorli-Desktop-Computer-Business-Education/dp/B0GTM4FCS4?th=1
That one is the same brand and basic specs as the one I have.
which devices? Provide links of mini-PCs being sold with Pro for low
prices.
https://www.amazon.com/Getorli-Desktop-Computer-Business-Education/dp/B0GTM4FCS4?th=1
That one is the same brand and basic specs as the one I have.
It mentions "OS/ 11 Pro". Which may mean Windows 11 or something else.
On 08/22/2026 4:54 PM, J. P. Gilliver wrote:So why do you think Paul mentioned "hot", if it doesn't make any
On 2026/8/22 17:58:29, Paul wrote:
When the activation happens for that OS, it is recorded on the Microsoft >>> server using a hardware ID.
I didn't do the activation; I presume the shop man did it, as (a) it was
a working/running Windows when I got it, and (b) the actual hardware I'm
pretty sure predates W10.
Does not matter.
If you restore from backup, it's my guess the internal state of the
OS is consistent with how it was before. There will be missing things,
such as Windows.edb (Search Indexer file), but everything else will be there.
The index will then rebuild itself over the next day or so. The reason
it might be missing, is it won't quiesce during a hot backup (VSS
doesn't work properly for it). Since it is automatically regenerated,
no one cares.
If "hot backup" means one done from within Windows, I don't do that: I
make my Macrium backups by cold-booting from the Macrium (6) CD.
Does not matter - Macrium in Windows or Macrium created media.
Let us say for a moment, some part that forms the "licensed" state
on the restored PC was missing, then the OS can "check in" using
its hardware ID, and a record of the activation is on the server. Whether >>> it ever does that, or does that on a regular basis, I don't know.
Probably not, or there would be the occasional report of a failure
related to it.
Re-validation is uncommon, relatively non-existent for consumer(OEM,
Retail Consumer, and either with digital licenses).
Re-verification(not the same as validation/re-validation) which isThat would cover replacement of the SSD, if I ever have to, I take it.
periodic background process occurs automatically for enterprise volume and/or subscription editions, or when major hardware changes exist(for
all types - enterprise, subscription, consumer(retail, OEM).
- i.e. the latter(for consumer hardware changes is why digital
licensing with a linked MSA is useful).
Roughly the "worst situation" happens when you buy a PC
off Ebay which claims to have W10 or W11 on it. It may
arrive seemingly licensed, then a few days later you see
the watermark in the corner. The license in that case,
(No such problems; it's been fine - apart from that weird thing with the
left ctrl key - since I've had it. OK, it's frozen a couple of times in
the last month or so, but that's due to the heat [like most UK homes, I
do not have A/C; I now have it propped up with a big old desk fan
blowing under it].)
Left CTRL key => Not license related.
On 8/23/2026 4:48 AM, Chris wrote:
which devices? Provide links of mini-PCs being sold with Pro for low
prices.
https://www.amazon.com/Getorli-Desktop-Computer-Business-Education/dp/B0GTM4FCS4?th=1
That one is the same brand and basic specs as the one I have.
It mentions "OS/ 11 Pro". Which may mean Windows 11 or something else.
It is Win11, they can't advertise it quite like HP or Dell would, but that's certainly what these devices come with.
On Sun, 8/23/2026 4:56 AM, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 8/23/2026 4:48 AM, Chris wrote:
which devices? Provide links of mini-PCs being sold with Pro for low >>>>> prices.
https://www.amazon.com/Getorli-Desktop-Computer-Business-Education/dp/B0GTM4FCS4?th=1
That one is the same brand and basic specs as the one I have.
It mentions "OS/ 11 Pro". Which may mean Windows 11 or something else.
It is Win11, they can't advertise it quite like HP or Dell would, but that's certainly what these devices come with.
They cannot seem to remotely advertise like a Dell or a HP.
Here is an HP take on a mini-PC :-)
https://ca.pcmag.com/desktop-pcs/4122/hp-z2-mini-g1a
Operating System Windows 11 Pro
3.4" by 7.9" by 6.6"
"Smells like a steak and seats thirty five"
On 2026/8/23 5:13:25, ....winston wrote:
On 08/22/2026 4:54 PM, J. P. Gilliver wrote:So why do you think Paul mentioned "hot", if it doesn't make any
On 2026/8/22 17:58:29, Paul wrote:
If you restore from backup, it's my guess the internal state of the
OS is consistent with how it was before. There will be missing things, >>>> such as Windows.edb (Search Indexer file), but everything else will be there.
The index will then rebuild itself over the next day or so. The reason >>>> it might be missing, is it won't quiesce during a hot backup (VSS
doesn't work properly for it). Since it is automatically regenerated,
no one cares.
If "hot backup" means one done from within Windows, I don't do that: I
make my Macrium backups by cold-booting from the Macrium (6) CD.
Does not matter - Macrium in Windows or Macrium created media.
difference? Or do you not think that's what he was referring to (in
which case what _do_ you think he meant)?
Let us say for a moment, some part that forms the "licensed" state
on the restored PC was missing, then the OS can "check in" using
its hardware ID, and a record of the activation is on the server. Whether >>>> it ever does that, or does that on a regular basis, I don't know.
Probably not, or there would be the occasional report of a failure
related to it.
Re-validation is uncommon, relatively non-existent for consumer(OEM,
Retail Consumer, and either with digital licenses).
How do I tell which I have? Bottom right of my screen (desktop) says
Windows 10 Home
Build 19041.vb_release.191206-1406
Winver shows
Version 22H2 (OS Build 19045.7683) ... Windows 10 Home ...
On 08/23/2026 4:59 AM, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
On 2026/8/23 5:13:25, ....winston wrote:
On 08/22/2026 4:54 PM, J. P. Gilliver wrote:So why do you think Paul mentioned "hot", if it doesn't make any
On 2026/8/22 17:58:29, Paul wrote:
If you restore from backup, it's my guess the internal state of the
OS is consistent with how it was before. There will be missing things, >>>>> such as Windows.edb (Search Indexer file), but everything else will be there.
The index will then rebuild itself over the next day or so. The reason >>>>> it might be missing, is it won't quiesce during a hot backup (VSS
doesn't work properly for it). Since it is automatically regenerated, >>>>> no one cares.
If "hot backup" means one done from within Windows, I don't do that: I >>>> make my Macrium backups by cold-booting from the Macrium (6) CD.
Does not matter - Macrium in Windows or Macrium created media.
difference? Or do you not think that's what he was referring to (in
which case what _do_ you think he meant)?
That's what he meant(Hot backup = done in Windows).
The image(all partitions - System, MSR, Windows, Recovery) restored(or cloned) to the new SSD is structurally the same. Windows, upon use, will recover or recreate what it needs.
[]How do I tell which I have? Bottom right of my screen (desktop) says
Looking in the wrong place.
Admin Command Prompt, type the following and press Enter.
slmgr /dli
On 8/23/2026 6:16 AM, Paul wrote:
On Sun, 8/23/2026 4:56 AM, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 8/23/2026 4:48 AM, Chris wrote:
which devices? Provide links of mini-PCs being sold with Pro for low >>>>>> prices.
https://www.amazon.com/Getorli-Desktop-Computer-Business-Education/dp/B0GTM4FCS4?th=1
That one is the same brand and basic specs as the one I have.
It mentions "OS/ 11 Pro". Which may mean Windows 11 or something else.
It is Win11, they can't advertise it quite like HP or Dell would, but that's certainly what these devices come with.
They cannot seem to remotely advertise like a Dell or a HP.
Here is an HP take on a mini-PC :-)
https://ca.pcmag.com/desktop-pcs/4122/hp-z2-mini-g1a
Operating System Windows 11 Pro
3.4" by 7.9" by 6.6"
"Smells like a steak and seats thirty five"
Christ. I mean, it might be OK for some particular application, but it's a lot to
spend for what it really is. The appeal of the mini PC to me is that they've made a
viable PC a commodity, this HP model is not consistent with that, though it is "cool", at least.
On Sun, 8/23/2026 7:29 AM, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 8/23/2026 6:16 AM, Paul wrote:
On Sun, 8/23/2026 4:56 AM, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 8/23/2026 4:48 AM, Chris wrote:
It is Win11, they can't advertise it quite like HP or Dell would, but that's certainly what these devices come with.which devices? Provide links of mini-PCs being sold with Pro for low >>>>>>> prices.
https://www.amazon.com/Getorli-Desktop-Computer-Business-Education/dp/B0GTM4FCS4?th=1
That one is the same brand and basic specs as the one I have.
It mentions "OS/ 11 Pro". Which may mean Windows 11 or something else. >>>>
They cannot seem to remotely advertise like a Dell or a HP.
Here is an HP take on a mini-PC :-)
https://ca.pcmag.com/desktop-pcs/4122/hp-z2-mini-g1a
Operating System Windows 11 Pro
3.4" by 7.9" by 6.6"
"Smells like a steak and seats thirty five"
Christ. I mean, it might be OK for some particular application, but it's a lot to
spend for what it really is. The appeal of the mini PC to me is that they've made a
viable PC a commodity, this HP model is not consistent with that, though it is "cool", at least.
The mini-PC will span from $300 to over $4000 or so.
The RAM shortage of next year, will have something to say about
what volume of those will ship.
On 8/22/2026 3:49 PM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
Joel W. Crump <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
On 8/19/2026 11:40 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
You're not getting the point. Microsoft doesn't license 11 Pro on a >>>> commodity mini PC, the license is *used by* the manufacturer in a way >>>> that somehow qualifies as being OK to use, because MS doesn't really >>>> care, they know where the money in Windows is, this is merely reusing >>>> licenses in a semi-sketchy but largely tolerated way. It's not good >>>> enough for me, as a cognizant consumer, but Microsoft provides a very >>>> simple solution as I explained (the "change product key" function in >>>> settings).
I'm "not getting the point", because you don't *have* a point, you >>> only have FUD.
You have no way of knowing whether or not Microsoft sells Windows 11 >>> Pro to Mini-PC manufacturers.
You *claim* that Mini-PC manufacturers get their licences in some kind
of 'gray' way from other parties which no longer need those licenses,
but you provide no proof of said claim. None, zilch, nada.
If you are convinced that the Pro license which came with your Mini-PC
was dodgy and therefor you were willing to spend $200 on a legit
license, then that's of course your prerogative. Accusing the whole
Mini-PC industry for using dodgy licences, is not.
Once more: EOD.
It's only "EOD" when I'm done refuting your lunacy. Why do you think
these devices are priced so low with 11 Pro included? Do you have any
idea what they'd cost if they were getting 11 Pro sourced directly from MS?
*My* lunacy!? You're the one continuously rambling on with your FUD
and innuendo, without any kind of proof, while ignoring the responses
from people who have way, way more expertise and experience in the
matter. You didn't even seem to know where an OEM license is stored
these days!
As to price: An *OEM* Pro license - i.e. in *bulk* would be marginally more expensive than a Home one. Face it, for Joe User, Pro doesn't offer all that much more than Home.
But feel free to rant on. It seems on this topic (or any topic?),
nobody can stop you.
As long as someone passes the popcorn, I'm fine.
It's not "FUD", to begin with, this is a standard practice beyond the
China semi-OEMs, you can buy a single gray-market license for 11 Pro
online for a small sum. The only catch is that it violates MS's
original agreement with whomever purchased the license. It will work, though.
Joel W. Crump <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
On 8/22/2026 3:49 PM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
Joel W. Crump <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
On 8/19/2026 11:40 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
You're not getting the point. Microsoft doesn't license 11 Pro on a >>>>>> commodity mini PC, the license is *used by* the manufacturer in a way >>>>>> that somehow qualifies as being OK to use, because MS doesn't really >>>>>> care, they know where the money in Windows is, this is merely reusing >>>>>> licenses in a semi-sketchy but largely tolerated way. It's not good >>>>>> enough for me, as a cognizant consumer, but Microsoft provides a very >>>>>> simple solution as I explained (the "change product key" function in >>>>>> settings).
I'm "not getting the point", because you don't *have* a point, you >>>>> only have FUD.
You have no way of knowing whether or not Microsoft sells Windows 11 >>>>> Pro to Mini-PC manufacturers.
You *claim* that Mini-PC manufacturers get their licences in some kind
of 'gray' way from other parties which no longer need those licenses, >>>>> but you provide no proof of said claim. None, zilch, nada.
If you are convinced that the Pro license which came with your Mini-PC
was dodgy and therefor you were willing to spend $200 on a legit
license, then that's of course your prerogative. Accusing the whole
Mini-PC industry for using dodgy licences, is not.
Once more: EOD.
It's only "EOD" when I'm done refuting your lunacy. Why do you think
these devices are priced so low with 11 Pro included? Do you have any >>>> idea what they'd cost if they were getting 11 Pro sourced directly from MS?
*My* lunacy!? You're the one continuously rambling on with your FUD
and innuendo, without any kind of proof, while ignoring the responses
from people who have way, way more expertise and experience in the
matter. You didn't even seem to know where an OEM license is stored
these days!
As to price: An *OEM* Pro license - i.e. in *bulk* would be marginally >>> more expensive than a Home one. Face it, for Joe User, Pro doesn't offer >>> all that much more than Home.
But feel free to rant on. It seems on this topic (or any topic?),
nobody can stop you.
As long as someone passes the popcorn, I'm fine.
It's not "FUD", to begin with, this is a standard practice beyond the
China semi-OEMs, you can buy a single gray-market license for 11 Pro
online for a small sum. The only catch is that it violates MS's
original agreement with whomever purchased the license. It will work,
though.
'Nice' dodge/divert. You were not talking about "you can buy a single gray-market license for 11 Pro", but about (Chinese) Mini-PC
manufacturers supplying gray-market licenses with their devices, i.e.
not a single license, but many of them, in bulk. You still haven't
provided any proof of *that*.
In the meantime, Winston has explained that the cost difference
between an OEM bulk license for Pro versus Home is about $15 per
license, big deal.
QED.
HTH. HAND. EOD. NL.
Joel W. Crump <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:[...]
It's only "EOD" when I'm done refuting your lunacy. Why do you think these devices are priced so low with 11 Pro included?
which devices? Provide links of mini-PCs being sold with Pro for low
prices.
On 8/22/2026 3:49 PM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
Joel W. Crump <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
On 8/19/2026 11:40 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
You're not getting the point. Microsoft doesn't license 11 Pro on a >>>> commodity mini PC, the license is *used by* the manufacturer in a way >>>> that somehow qualifies as being OK to use, because MS doesn't really >>>> care, they know where the money in Windows is, this is merely reusing >>>> licenses in a semi-sketchy but largely tolerated way. It's not good >>>> enough for me, as a cognizant consumer, but Microsoft provides a very >>>> simple solution as I explained (the "change product key" function in >>>> settings).
I'm "not getting the point", because you don't *have* a point, you >>> only have FUD.
You have no way of knowing whether or not Microsoft sells Windows 11 >>> Pro to Mini-PC manufacturers.
You *claim* that Mini-PC manufacturers get their licences in some kind
of 'gray' way from other parties which no longer need those licenses,
but you provide no proof of said claim. None, zilch, nada.
If you are convinced that the Pro license which came with your Mini-PC
was dodgy and therefor you were willing to spend $200 on a legit
license, then that's of course your prerogative. Accusing the whole
Mini-PC industry for using dodgy licences, is not.
Once more: EOD.
It's only "EOD" when I'm done refuting your lunacy. Why do you think
these devices are priced so low with 11 Pro included? Do you have any
idea what they'd cost if they were getting 11 Pro sourced directly from MS?
*My* lunacy!? You're the one continuously rambling on with your FUD
and innuendo, without any kind of proof, while ignoring the responses
from people who have way, way more expertise and experience in the
matter. You didn't even seem to know where an OEM license is stored
these days!
As to price: An *OEM* Pro license - i.e. in *bulk* would be marginally more expensive than a Home one. Face it, for Joe User, Pro doesn't offer all that much more than Home.
But feel free to rant on. It seems on this topic (or any topic?),
nobody can stop you.
As long as someone passes the popcorn, I'm fine.
It's not "FUD", to begin with, this is a standard practice beyond the
China semi-OEMs, you can buy a single gray-market license for 11 Pro
online for a small sum. The only catch is that it violates MS's
original agreement with whomever purchased the license. It will work, though.
On 8/23/2026 3:27 PM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
Joel W. Crump <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
On 8/22/2026 3:49 PM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
Joel W. Crump <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
On 8/19/2026 11:40 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
You're not getting the point. Microsoft doesn't license 11 Pro on a >>>>>> commodity mini PC, the license is *used by* the manufacturer in a way >>>>>> that somehow qualifies as being OK to use, because MS doesn't really >>>>>> care, they know where the money in Windows is, this is merely reusing >>>>>> licenses in a semi-sketchy but largely tolerated way. It's not good >>>>>> enough for me, as a cognizant consumer, but Microsoft provides a very >>>>>> simple solution as I explained (the "change product key" function in >>>>>> settings).
I'm "not getting the point", because you don't *have* a point, you >>>>> only have FUD.
You have no way of knowing whether or not Microsoft sells Windows 11
Pro to Mini-PC manufacturers.
You *claim* that Mini-PC manufacturers get their licences in some kind
of 'gray' way from other parties which no longer need those licenses, >>>>> but you provide no proof of said claim. None, zilch, nada.
If you are convinced that the Pro license which came with your Mini-PC
was dodgy and therefor you were willing to spend $200 on a legit
license, then that's of course your prerogative. Accusing the whole >>>>> Mini-PC industry for using dodgy licences, is not.
Once more: EOD.
It's only "EOD" when I'm done refuting your lunacy. Why do you think >>>> these devices are priced so low with 11 Pro included? Do you have any >>>> idea what they'd cost if they were getting 11 Pro sourced directly from MS?
*My* lunacy!? You're the one continuously rambling on with your FUD >>> and innuendo, without any kind of proof, while ignoring the responses
from people who have way, way more expertise and experience in the
matter. You didn't even seem to know where an OEM license is stored
these days!
As to price: An *OEM* Pro license - i.e. in *bulk* would be marginally
more expensive than a Home one. Face it, for Joe User, Pro doesn't offer >>> all that much more than Home.
But feel free to rant on. It seems on this topic (or any topic?),
nobody can stop you.
As long as someone passes the popcorn, I'm fine.
It's not "FUD", to begin with, this is a standard practice beyond the
China semi-OEMs, you can buy a single gray-market license for 11 Pro
online for a small sum. The only catch is that it violates MS's
original agreement with whomever purchased the license. It will work,
though.
'Nice' dodge/divert. You were not talking about "you can buy a single gray-market license for 11 Pro", but about (Chinese) Mini-PC
manufacturers supplying gray-market licenses with their devices, i.e.
not a single license, but many of them, in bulk. You still haven't
provided any proof of *that*.
In the meantime, Winston has explained that the cost difference
between an OEM bulk license for Pro versus Home is about $15 per
license, big deal.
QED.
HTH. HAND. EOD. NL.
Microsoft may have reduced the prices for Pro sold through OEMs, since I last researched it, but these aren't technically OEMs, not by the
Microsoft standard. They're entities in China's mainland. I mean, the thing is that you really can use what they provide, the same as buying a gray-market license from Bleeping Computer or some such, it's not valid according to the original license agreement but who cares, it's a matter
of activating the OS on a device, MS will let you do it. I simply had
some extra money to spend on a valid license and wanted to actually
support the development of the platform, God forbid anyone ever paid for
it, Microsoft is a billion-dollar corporation, they don't need the
money, blah blah, they do need it because they're a business like any
other, cash flow goes both ways, I'm willing to pay my fair share.
At Sat, 22 Aug 2026 16:29:40 -0400, "Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
On 8/22/2026 3:49 PM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
Joel W. Crump <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
On 8/19/2026 11:40 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
You're not getting the point. Microsoft doesn't license 11 Pro on a >>>>>> commodity mini PC, the license is *used by* the manufacturer in a way >>>>>> that somehow qualifies as being OK to use, because MS doesn't really >>>>>> care, they know where the money in Windows is, this is merely reusing >>>>>> licenses in a semi-sketchy but largely tolerated way. It's not good >>>>>> enough for me, as a cognizant consumer, but Microsoft provides a very >>>>>> simple solution as I explained (the "change product key" function in >>>>>> settings).
I'm "not getting the point", because you don't *have* a point, you >>>>> only have FUD.
You have no way of knowing whether or not Microsoft sells Windows 11 >>>>> Pro to Mini-PC manufacturers.
You *claim* that Mini-PC manufacturers get their licences in some kind
of 'gray' way from other parties which no longer need those licenses, >>>>> but you provide no proof of said claim. None, zilch, nada.
If you are convinced that the Pro license which came with your Mini-PC
was dodgy and therefor you were willing to spend $200 on a legit
license, then that's of course your prerogative. Accusing the whole
Mini-PC industry for using dodgy licences, is not.
Once more: EOD.
It's only "EOD" when I'm done refuting your lunacy. Why do you think
these devices are priced so low with 11 Pro included? Do you have any >>>> idea what they'd cost if they were getting 11 Pro sourced directly from MS?
*My* lunacy!? You're the one continuously rambling on with your FUD
and innuendo, without any kind of proof, while ignoring the responses
from people who have way, way more expertise and experience in the
matter. You didn't even seem to know where an OEM license is stored
these days!
As to price: An *OEM* Pro license - i.e. in *bulk* would be marginally >>> more expensive than a Home one. Face it, for Joe User, Pro doesn't offer >>> all that much more than Home.
But feel free to rant on. It seems on this topic (or any topic?),
nobody can stop you.
As long as someone passes the popcorn, I'm fine.
It's not "FUD", to begin with, this is a standard practice beyond the
China semi-OEMs, you can buy a single gray-market license for 11 Pro
online for a small sum. The only catch is that it violates MS's
original agreement with whomever purchased the license. It will work,
though.
Bullshit.
On 8/23/2026 3:27 PM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
Joel W. Crump <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
On 8/22/2026 3:49 PM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
Joel W. Crump <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
On 8/19/2026 11:40 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
You're not getting the point. Microsoft doesn't license 11 Pro on a >>>>>>> commodity mini PC, the license is *used by* the manufacturer in a way >>>>>>> that somehow qualifies as being OK to use, because MS doesn't really >>>>>>> care, they know where the money in Windows is, this is merely reusing >>>>>>> licenses in a semi-sketchy but largely tolerated way. It's not good >>>>>>> enough for me, as a cognizant consumer, but Microsoft provides a very >>>>>>> simple solution as I explained (the "change product key" function in >>>>>>> settings).
I'm "not getting the point", because you don't *have* a point, you >>>>>> only have FUD.
You have no way of knowing whether or not Microsoft sells Windows 11
Pro to Mini-PC manufacturers.
You *claim* that Mini-PC manufacturers get their licences in some kind
of 'gray' way from other parties which no longer need those licenses, >>>>>> but you provide no proof of said claim. None, zilch, nada.
If you are convinced that the Pro license which came with your Mini-PC
was dodgy and therefor you were willing to spend $200 on a legit
license, then that's of course your prerogative. Accusing the whole >>>>>> Mini-PC industry for using dodgy licences, is not.
Once more: EOD.
It's only "EOD" when I'm done refuting your lunacy. Why do you think >>>>> these devices are priced so low with 11 Pro included? Do you have any >>>>> idea what they'd cost if they were getting 11 Pro sourced directly from MS?
*My* lunacy!? You're the one continuously rambling on with your FUD >>>> and innuendo, without any kind of proof, while ignoring the responses
from people who have way, way more expertise and experience in the
matter. You didn't even seem to know where an OEM license is stored
these days!
As to price: An *OEM* Pro license - i.e. in *bulk* would be marginally >>>> more expensive than a Home one. Face it, for Joe User, Pro doesn't offer >>>> all that much more than Home.
But feel free to rant on. It seems on this topic (or any topic?),
nobody can stop you.
As long as someone passes the popcorn, I'm fine.
It's not "FUD", to begin with, this is a standard practice beyond the
China semi-OEMs, you can buy a single gray-market license for 11 Pro
online for a small sum. The only catch is that it violates MS's
original agreement with whomever purchased the license. It will work,
though.
'Nice' dodge/divert. You were not talking about "you can buy a single
gray-market license for 11 Pro", but about (Chinese) Mini-PC
manufacturers supplying gray-market licenses with their devices, i.e.
not a single license, but many of them, in bulk. You still haven't
provided any proof of *that*.
In the meantime, Winston has explained that the cost difference
between an OEM bulk license for Pro versus Home is about $15 per
license, big deal.
QED.
HTH. HAND. EOD. NL.
Microsoft may have reduced the prices for Pro sold through OEMs, since I last
researched it, but these aren't technically OEMs, not by the Microsoft standard.
They're entities in China's mainland. I mean, the thing is that you really can
use what they provide, the same as buying a gray-market license from Bleeping
Computer or some such, it's not valid according to the original license agreement
but who cares, it's a matter of activating the OS on a device, MS will let you do it.
I simply had some extra money to spend on a valid license and wanted to actually
support the development of the platform, God forbid anyone ever paid for it, Microsoft is a billion-dollar corporation, they don't need the money, blah blah,
they do need it because they're a business like any other, cash flow goes both
ways, I'm willing to pay my fair share.
On Sun, 8/23/2026 3:39 PM, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 8/23/2026 3:27 PM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
Joel W. Crump <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
On 8/22/2026 3:49 PM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
Joel W. Crump <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
On 8/19/2026 11:40 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
You're not getting the point. Microsoft doesn't license 11 Pro on a >>>>>>>> commodity mini PC, the license is *used by* the manufacturer in a way >>>>>>>> that somehow qualifies as being OK to use, because MS doesn't really >>>>>>>> care, they know where the money in Windows is, this is merely reusing >>>>>>>> licenses in a semi-sketchy but largely tolerated way. It's not good >>>>>>>> enough for me, as a cognizant consumer, but Microsoft provides a very >>>>>>>> simple solution as I explained (the "change product key" function in >>>>>>>> settings).
I'm "not getting the point", because you don't *have* a point, you >>>>>>> only have FUD.
You have no way of knowing whether or not Microsoft sells Windows 11
Pro to Mini-PC manufacturers.
You *claim* that Mini-PC manufacturers get their licences in some kind
of 'gray' way from other parties which no longer need those licenses, >>>>>>> but you provide no proof of said claim. None, zilch, nada.
If you are convinced that the Pro license which came with your Mini-PC
was dodgy and therefor you were willing to spend $200 on a legit >>>>>>> license, then that's of course your prerogative. Accusing the whole >>>>>>> Mini-PC industry for using dodgy licences, is not.
Once more: EOD.
It's only "EOD" when I'm done refuting your lunacy. Why do you think >>>>>> these devices are priced so low with 11 Pro included? Do you have any >>>>>> idea what they'd cost if they were getting 11 Pro sourced directly from MS?
*My* lunacy!? You're the one continuously rambling on with your FUD >>>>> and innuendo, without any kind of proof, while ignoring the responses >>>>> from people who have way, way more expertise and experience in the
matter. You didn't even seem to know where an OEM license is stored
these days!
As to price: An *OEM* Pro license - i.e. in *bulk* would be marginally
more expensive than a Home one. Face it, for Joe User, Pro doesn't offer >>>>> all that much more than Home.
But feel free to rant on. It seems on this topic (or any topic?), >>>>> nobody can stop you.
As long as someone passes the popcorn, I'm fine.
It's not "FUD", to begin with, this is a standard practice beyond the
China semi-OEMs, you can buy a single gray-market license for 11 Pro
online for a small sum. The only catch is that it violates MS's
original agreement with whomever purchased the license. It will work, >>>> though.
'Nice' dodge/divert. You were not talking about "you can buy a single >>> gray-market license for 11 Pro", but about (Chinese) Mini-PC
manufacturers supplying gray-market licenses with their devices, i.e.
not a single license, but many of them, in bulk. You still haven't
provided any proof of *that*.
In the meantime, Winston has explained that the cost difference
between an OEM bulk license for Pro versus Home is about $15 per
license, big deal.
QED.
HTH. HAND. EOD. NL.
Microsoft may have reduced the prices for Pro sold through OEMs, since I last
researched it, but these aren't technically OEMs, not by the Microsoft standard.
They're entities in China's mainland. I mean, the thing is that you really can
use what they provide, the same as buying a gray-market license from Bleeping
Computer or some such, it's not valid according to the original license agreement
but who cares, it's a matter of activating the OS on a device, MS will let you do it.
I simply had some extra money to spend on a valid license and wanted to actually
support the development of the platform, God forbid anyone ever paid for it,
Microsoft is a billion-dollar corporation, they don't need the money, blah blah,
they do need it because they're a business like any other, cash flow goes both
ways, I'm willing to pay my fair share.
Using a Linux OS...
"Inspect the /sys/firmware/acpi/tables/MSDM file"
That should have the key.
https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/troubleshoot/windows-client/licensing-and-activation/validate-oem-activation-key
"OA3TOOL /Validate
It runs a validation pass to make sure that:
the MSDM table exists.
the MSDM table header includes all the required fields.
the MSDM table entries exist and comply with the correct formats.
OA3TOOL /CheckEdition
Does a cross-check between the injected DPK and the target Windows edition if they match.
"
According to that then, the thing is a "table", even if on printing it out you can only see the license key.
I don't have any machines with an MSDM here, so I can't do any of this.
But the approaches here, may show you more than just a key.
https://dev.to/moonlitpath1/how-linux-figures-out-what-hardware-you-have-291o
On 8/23/2026 3:27 PM, Frank Slootweg wrote:[...]
Joel W. Crump <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
On 8/22/2026 3:49 PM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
It's only "EOD" when I'm done refuting your lunacy. Why do you
think these devices are priced so low with 11 Pro included? Do
you have any idea what they'd cost if they were getting 11 Pro
sourced directly from MS?
*My* lunacy!? You're the one continuously rambling on with your FUD >>> and innuendo, without any kind of proof, while ignoring the responses
from people who have way, way more expertise and experience in the
matter. You didn't even seem to know where an OEM license is stored
these days!
As to price: An *OEM* Pro license - i.e. in *bulk* would be marginally
more expensive than a Home one. Face it, for Joe User, Pro doesn't offer >>> all that much more than Home.
But feel free to rant on. It seems on this topic (or any topic?),
nobody can stop you.
As long as someone passes the popcorn, I'm fine.
It's not "FUD", to begin with, this is a standard practice beyond the
China semi-OEMs, you can buy a single gray-market license for 11 Pro
online for a small sum. The only catch is that it violates MS's
original agreement with whomever purchased the license. It will work,
though.
'Nice' dodge/divert. You were not talking about "you can buy a single gray-market license for 11 Pro", but about (Chinese) Mini-PC
manufacturers supplying gray-market licenses with their devices, i.e.
not a single license, but many of them, in bulk. You still haven't
provided any proof of *that*.
In the meantime, Winston has explained that the cost difference
between an OEM bulk license for Pro versus Home is about $15 per
license, big deal.
QED.
HTH. HAND. EOD. NL.
Microsoft may have reduced the prices for Pro sold through OEMs, since I last researched it, but these aren't technically OEMs, not by the
Microsoft standard.
They're entities in China's mainland.
They're entities in China's mainland. I mean, the
thing is that you really can use what they provide, the same as buying a gray-market license from Bleeping Computer or some such, it's not valid according to the original license agreement but who cares, it's a matter
of activating the OS on a device, MS will let you do it. I simply had
some extra money to spend on a valid license and wanted to actually
support the development of the platform, God forbid anyone ever paid for
it, Microsoft is a billion-dollar corporation, they don't need the
money, blah blah, they do need it because they're a business like any
other, cash flow goes both ways, I'm willing to pay my fair share.
Joel W. Crump <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
On 8/23/2026 3:27 PM, Frank Slootweg wrote:[...]
Joel W. Crump <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
On 8/22/2026 3:49 PM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
It's only "EOD" when I'm done refuting your lunacy. Why do you
think these devices are priced so low with 11 Pro included? Do
you have any idea what they'd cost if they were getting 11 Pro
sourced directly from MS?
*My* lunacy!? You're the one continuously rambling on with
your FUD
and innuendo, without any kind of proof, while ignoring the
responses from people who have way, way more expertise and
experience in the matter. You didn't even seem to know where an
OEM license is stored these days!
As to price: An *OEM* Pro license - i.e. in *bulk* would be
marginally
more expensive than a Home one. Face it, for Joe User, Pro
doesn't offer all that much more than Home.
But feel free to rant on. It seems on this topic (or any
topic?),
nobody can stop you.
As long as someone passes the popcorn, I'm fine.
It's not "FUD", to begin with, this is a standard practice
beyond the China semi-OEMs, you can buy a single gray-market
license for 11 Pro online for a small sum. The only catch is
that it violates MS's original agreement with whomever purchased
the license. It will work, though.
'Nice' dodge/divert. You were not talking about "you can buy a
single
gray-market license for 11 Pro", but about (Chinese) Mini-PC manufacturers supplying gray-market licenses with their devices,
i.e. not a single license, but many of them, in bulk. You still
haven't provided any proof of *that*.
In the meantime, Winston has explained that the cost difference between an OEM bulk license for Pro versus Home is about $15 per
license, big deal.
QED.
HTH. HAND. EOD. NL.
Microsoft may have reduced the prices for Pro sold through OEMs,
since I last researched it, but these aren't technically OEMs, not
by the Microsoft standard.
Yes, they *are* OEMs. Just because you say they're not, still
without
providing any proof, does not make that so.
They're entities in China's mainland.
Duh! Of course they are, but that doesn't mean they're not OEMs.
[Usual FUD, innuendo, etc. without any proof:]
They're entities in China's mainland. I mean, the
thing is that you really can use what they provide, the same as
buying a gray-market license from Bleeping Computer or some such,
it's not valid according to the original license agreement but who
cares, it's a matter of activating the OS on a device, MS will let
you do it. I simply had some extra money to spend on a valid
license and wanted to actually support the development of the
platform, God forbid anyone ever paid for it, Microsoft is a
billion-dollar corporation, they don't need the money, blah blah,
they do need it because they're a business like any other, cash
flow goes both ways, I'm willing to pay my fair share.
Because you keep on harping about this "gray-market license"
nonsense,
just for kicks, I checked the alleged 'gray-market' Pro license of my
wife's (Beelink EQR5) Mini-PC and compared it to the (obviously legit)
Home license of my HP laptop.
'slmgr /dli' outputs:
Name: Windows(R), Core edition
Description: Windows(R) Operating System, OEM_DM channel
Partial Product Key: [redacted]
License Status: Licensed
Name: Windows(R), Professional edition
Description: Windows(R) Operating System, OEM_DM channel
Partial Product Key: [redacted]
License Status: Licensed
So that is clear proof that the Pro license is a legit *OEM*
license,
as everybody, except you, said from the get go.
See John's (J. P. Gilliver) post for a similar 'slmgr /dli' example
and Winston's post for the explanation of what the 'DM' part means.
So, if you respond again, provide *P R O O F* of your claims, or
kindly STFU.
At 24 Aug 2026 15:14:09 GMT, Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid>
wrote:
Joel W. Crump <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
On 8/23/2026 3:27 PM, Frank Slootweg wrote:[...]
Joel W. Crump <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
On 8/22/2026 3:49 PM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
It's only "EOD" when I'm done refuting your lunacy. Why do you
think these devices are priced so low with 11 Pro included? Do
you have any idea what they'd cost if they were getting 11 Pro
sourced directly from MS?
*My* lunacy!? You're the one continuously rambling on with
your FUD
and innuendo, without any kind of proof, while ignoring the
responses from people who have way, way more expertise and
experience in the matter. You didn't even seem to know where an
OEM license is stored these days!
As to price: An *OEM* Pro license - i.e. in *bulk* would be
marginally
more expensive than a Home one. Face it, for Joe User, Pro
doesn't offer all that much more than Home.
But feel free to rant on. It seems on this topic (or any
topic?),
nobody can stop you.
As long as someone passes the popcorn, I'm fine.
It's not "FUD", to begin with, this is a standard practice
beyond the China semi-OEMs, you can buy a single gray-market
license for 11 Pro online for a small sum. The only catch is
that it violates MS's original agreement with whomever purchased
the license. It will work, though.
'Nice' dodge/divert. You were not talking about "you can buy a
single
gray-market license for 11 Pro", but about (Chinese) Mini-PC
manufacturers supplying gray-market licenses with their devices,
i.e. not a single license, but many of them, in bulk. You still
haven't provided any proof of *that*.
In the meantime, Winston has explained that the cost difference
between an OEM bulk license for Pro versus Home is about $15 per
license, big deal.
QED.
HTH. HAND. EOD. NL.
Microsoft may have reduced the prices for Pro sold through OEMs,
since I last researched it, but these aren't technically OEMs, not
by the Microsoft standard.
Yes, they *are* OEMs. Just because you say they're not, still
without
providing any proof, does not make that so.
They're entities in China's mainland.
Duh! Of course they are, but that doesn't mean they're not OEMs.
[Usual FUD, innuendo, etc. without any proof:]
They're entities in China's mainland. I mean, the
thing is that you really can use what they provide, the same as
buying a gray-market license from Bleeping Computer or some such,
it's not valid according to the original license agreement but who
cares, it's a matter of activating the OS on a device, MS will let
you do it. I simply had some extra money to spend on a valid
license and wanted to actually support the development of the
platform, God forbid anyone ever paid for it, Microsoft is a
billion-dollar corporation, they don't need the money, blah blah,
they do need it because they're a business like any other, cash
flow goes both ways, I'm willing to pay my fair share.
Because you keep on harping about this "gray-market license"
nonsense,
just for kicks, I checked the alleged 'gray-market' Pro license of my
wife's (Beelink EQR5) Mini-PC and compared it to the (obviously legit)
Home license of my HP laptop.
'slmgr /dli' outputs:
Name: Windows(R), Core edition
Description: Windows(R) Operating System, OEM_DM channel
Partial Product Key: [redacted]
License Status: Licensed
Name: Windows(R), Professional edition
Description: Windows(R) Operating System, OEM_DM channel
Partial Product Key: [redacted]
License Status: Licensed
So that is clear proof that the Pro license is a legit *OEM*
license,
as everybody, except you, said from the get go.
See John's (J. P. Gilliver) post for a similar 'slmgr /dli' example
and Winston's post for the explanation of what the 'DM' part means.
So, if you respond again, provide *P R O O F* of your claims, or
kindly STFU.
He won't. He's the same guy that said playing a certain video
on his computer ruined his video card, or his TV, or something
like that.
Microsoft may have reduced the prices for Pro sold through OEMs, since I
last researched it, but these aren't technically OEMs, not by the
Microsoft standard.
Yes, they *are* OEMs. Just because you say they're not, still without providing any proof, does not make that so.
They're entities in China's mainland.
Duh! Of course they are, but that doesn't mean they're not OEMs.
[Usual FUD, innuendo, etc. without any proof:]
They're entities in China's mainland. I mean, the
thing is that you really can use what they provide, the same as buying a
gray-market license from Bleeping Computer or some such, it's not valid
according to the original license agreement but who cares, it's a matter
of activating the OS on a device, MS will let you do it. I simply had
some extra money to spend on a valid license and wanted to actually
support the development of the platform, God forbid anyone ever paid for
it, Microsoft is a billion-dollar corporation, they don't need the
money, blah blah, they do need it because they're a business like any
other, cash flow goes both ways, I'm willing to pay my fair share.
Because you keep on harping about this "gray-market license" nonsense, just for kicks, I checked the alleged 'gray-market' Pro license of my
wife's (Beelink EQR5) Mini-PC and compared it to the (obviously legit)
Home license of my HP laptop.
He's the same guy that said playing a certain video
on his computer ruined his video card, or his TV, or something
like that.
On 8/24/2026 2:19 PM, vallor wrote:
He's the same guy that said playing a certain video
on his computer ruined his video card, or his TV, or something
like that.
I was using NVIDIA under Linux with proprietary drivers, and playing the pirated video on my TV as a second monitor made it permanently have a blurring effect on the TV as a second screen. Even completely replacing the distro with another one didn't fix it. NVIDIA is not to be fucked with.
Joel W. Crump <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
Microsoft may have reduced the prices for Pro sold through OEMs, since I
last researched it, but these aren't technically OEMs, not by the
Microsoft standard.
Yes, they *are* OEMs. Just because you say they're not, still without providing any proof, does not make that so.
Location does not matter.They're entities in China's mainland.
Duh! Of course they are, but that doesn't mean they're not OEMs.
[Usual FUD, innuendo, etc. without any proof:]
They're entities in China's mainland. I mean, the
thing is that you really can use what they provide, the same as buying a
gray-market license from Bleeping Computer or some such, it's not valid
according to the original license agreement but who cares, it's a matter
of activating the OS on a device, MS will let you do it. I simply had
some extra money to spend on a valid license and wanted to actually
support the development of the platform, God forbid anyone ever paid for
it, Microsoft is a billion-dollar corporation, they don't need the
money, blah blah, they do need it because they're a business like any
other, cash flow goes both ways, I'm willing to pay my fair share.
Because you keep on harping about this "gray-market license" nonsense, just for kicks, I checked the alleged 'gray-market' Pro license of my
wife's (Beelink EQR5) Mini-PC and compared it to the (obviously legit)
Home license of my HP laptop.
'slmgr /dli' outputs:
Name: Windows(R), Core edition
Description: Windows(R) Operating System, OEM_DM channel
Partial Product Key: [redacted]
License Status: License
Name: Windows(R), Professional edition
Description: Windows(R) Operating System, OEM_DM channel
Partial Product Key: [redacted]
License Status: Licensed
So that is clear proof that the Pro license is a legit *OEM* license,
as everybody, except you, said from the get go.
See John's (J. P. Gilliver) post for a similar 'slmgr /dli' example
and Winston's post for the explanation of what the 'DM' part means.
So, if you respond again, provide *P R O O F* of your claims, or
kindly STFU.
On Mon, 8/24/2026 8:28 PM, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 8/24/2026 2:19 PM, vallor wrote:
He's the same guy that said playing a certain video
on his computer ruined his video card, or his TV, or something
like that.
I was using NVIDIA under Linux with proprietary drivers, and playing the pirated video on my TV as a second monitor made it permanently have a blurring effect on the TV as a second screen. Even completely replacing the distro with another one didn't fix it. NVIDIA is not to be fucked with.
Questions:
1) Main monitor connection type (HDMI?) and resolution setting ?
2) Secondary monitor (TV) connection type (HDMI?) and resolution setting ?
1920x1080 @ 60p or above likely requires HDCP for HDMI. And
if you are attempting 4K output, only HDCP 2.1 or so. Blurring
of a picture, is a kind of "defeat" for attempting capture
of Hollywood content during high-res playback. If a TV did not
have HDCP, the connection could be set up to be unencrypted,
and the "blurring thing" is an indicator that you need
HDCP to make the blur go away. Instead of the TV, connect
a monitor with HDMI + HDCP and play the title again.
If the TV had HDMI and HDCP and was operating at
rates requiring that level of protection (signal encryption),
then the treatment of your TV set should be consistent from
one OS to another.
On 08/24/2026 11:14 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
Joel W. Crump <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
Microsoft may have reduced the prices for Pro sold through OEMs, since I >>> last researched it, but these aren't technically OEMs, not by the
Microsoft standard.
Another invalid assumption by JC.
The prices for Home Pro sold by Microsoft to OEM has not been reduced.
It's always been quite low, 15-20% of the retail cost. Each os since
Win95 has only had a no change or marginal increase - some os like 98 through Vista were the same for years.
As noted its always been a slightly higher than the cost of the os to employees.
Yes, they *are* OEMs. Just because you say they're not, still without
providing any proof, does not make that so.
Agreed as you noted, they are OEMS.
They're entities in China's mainland.
Location does not matter.
They're entities in China's mainland. I mean, the
thing is that you really can use what they provide, the same as buying a >>> gray-market license from Bleeping Computer or some such, it's not valid
according to the original license agreement but who cares, it's a matter >>> of activating the OS on a device, MS will let you do it. I simply had
some extra money to spend on a valid license and wanted to actually
support the development of the platform, God forbid anyone ever paid for >>> it, Microsoft is a billion-dollar corporation, they don't need the
money, blah blah, they do need it because they're a business like any
other, cash flow goes both ways, I'm willing to pay my fair share.
Because you keep on harping about this "gray-market license" nonsense,
just for kicks, I checked the alleged 'gray-market' Pro license of my
wife's (Beelink EQR5) Mini-PC and compared it to the (obviously legit)
Home license of my HP laptop.
'slmgr /dli' outputs:
Name: Windows(R), Core edition
Description: Windows(R) Operating System, OEM_DM channel
Partial Product Key: [redacted]
License Status: License
Name: Windows(R), Professional edition
Description: Windows(R) Operating System, OEM_DM channel
Partial Product Key: [redacted]
License Status: Licensed
So that is clear proof that the Pro license is a legit *OEM* license,
as everybody, except you, said from the get go.
See John's (J. P. Gilliver) post for a similar 'slmgr /dli' example
and Winston's post for the explanation of what the 'DM' part means.
So, if you respond again, provide *P R O O F* of your claims, or
kindly STFU.
Without validation for JC, it would be reasonable to assume that when(or
if) slmgr /dli or slmgr /dlv is performed on that(JC's) device, it will report one of the valid licensing types.
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