On 2026/8/31 8:9:41, Paul wrote:
[]

AI Overview

[]
Thanks for comprehensive report; lots to ponder there.

One of the major difficulties I find in choosing video (and audio)
editors, is finding any certainty that conversion is _not_ involved. The majority of the editing I can see doing involves just cutting and
splicing segments, but in virtually all cases, I feel that some
conversion is involved.

Yes, I do realise that (for example, just extracting a section of a
video) headers will need to be regenerated, and you'd also be limited to cutting at iframes if the videos are of that type; however, most
software I've seen either does, or doesn't show that it isn't, do some recoding.--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()ALIS-Ch++(p)Ar++T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

There are things that we should be free by law to say but choose not
to. A right to offend doesn't mean a duty to offend.
- Timothy Garton Ash, RT 2016/4/9-15

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On Mon, 8/31/2026 1:36 PM, J. P. Gilliver wrote:

On 2026/8/31 8:9:41, Paul wrote:
[]

AI Overview

[]
Thanks for comprehensive report; lots to ponder there.

One of the major difficulties I find in choosing video (and audio)
editors, is finding any certainty that conversion is _not_ involved. The majority of the editing I can see doing involves just cutting and
splicing segments, but in virtually all cases, I feel that some
conversion is involved.

Yes, I do realise that (for example, just extracting a section of a
video) headers will need to be regenerated, and you'd also be limited to cutting at iframes if the videos are of that type; however, most
software I've seen either does, or doesn't show that it isn't, do some recoding.--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()ALIS-Ch++(p)Ar++T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

There are things that we should be free by law to say but choose not
to. A right to offend doesn't mean a duty to offend.
- Timothy Garton Ash, RT 2016/4/9-15

There are separate tools that do various kind of lossless
splices. You might find mention of them on videohelp.

# Don't forget to scroll down!

https://www.videohelp.com/software/sections/video-editors-lossless

You can prepare videos that are forward and backward encoded,
which improves their job/shuttle behavior. A benefit of the
extra info that might involve, is you can make splices in the
middle of a GOP, rather than on GOP boundaries. And those splices
are "adjusted" to smooth over the discontinuity, because the
math works in both the forward and the reverse direction, and the
math works better that way.

These are kind of specialist topics, in that you the adventurer,
have to know how to check just how lossless the methods are. One
way you can guess at it, is use ffprobe, dump the interleaved
audio and video streams, measure the size of the video change
on each frame, look at the "pacing" of the various frames,
do the splice, re-examine the pacing and "see if one frame
has become bloated" indicating a re-encode and a lot of
change happened in one frame.

It's one thing to buy such a product, quite another to
get a result out of it. You need to have sharp eyes, and
recognize things are happening in your video edit. For
example, a lot of things are processed as Progressive today,
but if you ever worked with Interleaved material, you can
get the odd and even frames in the wrong order, which
"looks weird" and would then be something you the editor
have to recognize and fix :-) The work is partly touchy-feely
like that. When you've made a mistake and it affected
the quality, it might not be the re-encode after all.

Generally speaking, it's a garbage in garbage out enterprise.
You cannot start with materials on the knife edge of acceptable,
and go around doing lossless splices like you were Mother
Theresa and end up with an iMax quality result. Find better
source material, and use "ordinary techniques" and if there
is a little bit of re-encode loss, it's not likely to be
a problem. Shoot with your 8K Red camera, and reduce the
output resolution to the DVD standard. Should be "as sharp
as a tack".

I have only one good sample from an 8K Red camera. It's a video
clip of Hong Kong at night. It's maybe 7-10 seconds long.
The file is *1GB* in size. Now, that's "quality" (quantity).
Plenty of bits to throw away later :-) Is that camera
a rolling shutter or a global shutter ? It would not do, to
have your vid ruined by side effects of rolling shutter. A
global shutter camera can shoot a rotating fan blade without
distorting it.

Paul


--- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On 2026/9/1 3:5:53, Paul wrote:

On Mon, 8/31/2026 1:36 PM, J. P. Gilliver wrote:

On 2026/8/31 8:9:41, Paul wrote:
[]

AI Overview

[]
Thanks for comprehensive report; lots to ponder there.

One of the major difficulties I find in choosing video (and audio)
editors, is finding any certainty that conversion is _not_ involved. The
majority of the editing I can see doing involves just cutting and
splicing segments, but in virtually all cases, I feel that some
conversion is involved.

Yes, I do realise that (for example, just extracting a section of a
video) headers will need to be regenerated, and you'd also be limited to
cutting at iframes if the videos are of that type; however, most
software I've seen either does, or doesn't show that it isn't, do some
recoding.--

[]

There are separate tools that do various kind of lossless
splices. You might find mention of them on videohelp.

# Don't forget to scroll down!

https://www.videohelp.com/software/sections/video-editors-lossless

Thanks for that; starred, and I will have a look sometime.

And you then get straight into discussion of editing that is anything
but the sort I anticipate! But your input _is_ appreciated!

You can prepare videos that are forward and backward encoded,
which improves their job/shuttle behavior. A benefit of the
extra info that might involve, is you can make splices in the
middle of a GOP, rather than on GOP boundaries. And those splices
are "adjusted" to smooth over the discontinuity, because the
math works in both the forward and the reverse direction, and the
math works better that way.

(Although I _can_ guess what it means in this context, I associate the abbreviation GOP with "people who like guns" or something like that!)

These are kind of specialist topics, in that you the adventurer,
have to know how to check just how lossless the methods are. One
way you can guess at it, is use ffprobe, dump the interleaved
audio and video streams, measure the size of the video change
on each frame, look at the "pacing" of the various frames,
do the splice, re-examine the pacing and "see if one frame
has become bloated" indicating a re-encode and a lot of
change happened in one frame.

Steady on: statistically, I've only got another 10-20 years' life left
(I'm 66), and don't _think_ I'll be messing with the ffcomponents :-)

It's one thing to buy such a product, quite another to
get a result out of it. You need to have sharp eyes, and
recognize things are happening in your video edit. For
example, a lot of things are processed as Progressive today,
but if you ever worked with Interleaved material, you can

I grew up in the days of interleaved (I even remember system A, i. e.
"405 lines"!).

get the odd and even frames in the wrong order, which
"looks weird" and would then be something you the editor
have to recognize and fix :-) The work is partly touchy-feely

I think I do recognise it. Hairy edges (on moving things) and the like.
(Though either it's less common now, or YouTube - which is where I get
most of my vintage material - have better input processing.)

like that. When you've made a mistake and it affected
the quality, it might not be the re-encode after all.

Generally speaking, it's a garbage in garbage out enterprise.
You cannot start with materials on the knife edge of acceptable,
and go around doing lossless splices like you were Mother
Theresa and end up with an iMax quality result. Find better

(I don't think she had an h.) Definitely not. Although I've seen some impressive examples, I'm not generally a fan of upscaling; I know that's
not quite what you're talking of, but it's related - you can't make good
from bad. (Sadly, my cine films from the 1970s have deteriorated
sufficiently - colour, dirt - that higher resolution than I got from my
WinAit isn't justified.)

source material, and use "ordinary techniques" and if there
is a little bit of re-encode loss, it's not likely to be
a problem. Shoot with your 8K Red camera, and reduce the
output resolution to the DVD standard. Should be "as sharp
as a tack".

I have only one good sample from an 8K Red camera. It's a video
clip of Hong Kong at night. It's maybe 7-10 seconds long.
The file is *1GB* in size. Now, that's "quality" (quantity).

(Presumably raw, uncompressed?) I presume it's material like that that
they run on endless loops in the shops selling huge TVs; certainly night
views of electronics-rich cities seem to be popular.

Plenty of bits to throw away later :-) Is that camera
a rolling shutter or a global shutter ? It would not do, to
have your vid ruined by side effects of rolling shutter. A
global shutter camera can shoot a rotating fan blade without
distorting it.

(Aircraft propellers too, presumably.) Though needing high frame rate. I remember when high-"shutter"-speed cameras started to be available,
noticing their excessive (IMO) use on motoring programmes; you got a
series of freeze-frames when the car flashed by, which I found
distracting; presumably what I'd had before - and which hadn't imposed
itself on my perception - was motion blur. (Obviously for that sort of
use high frame rate wasn't available, it being a broadcast TV prog., so
limited to 25/50 [here] FPS.)>

Paul

John
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()ALIS-Ch++(p)Ar++T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"Bugger," said Pooh, feeling very annoyed.

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On 31/08/2026 18:36, J. P. Gilliver wrote:

On 2026/8/31 8:9:41, Paul wrote:
[]

AI Overview

[]
Thanks for comprehensive report; lots to ponder there.

One of the major difficulties I find in choosing video (and audio)
editors, is finding any certainty that conversion is _not_ involved. The majority of the editing I can see doing involves just cutting and
splicing segments, but in virtually all cases, I feel that some
conversion is involved.

Yes, I do realise that (for example, just extracting a section of a
video) headers will need to be regenerated, and you'd also be limited to cutting at iframes if the videos are of that type; however, most
software I've seen either does, or doesn't show that it isn't, do some recoding.--

I use VideoReDo for editing out continuity and commercials from off-air recordings. It regenerates i/p/b frames at the edit points, up to the
next GOP boundary, but otherwise it copies without modifying the data.
It works flawlessly.

There is a problem: it was written by a two-man team. One of the men
left the team and a bit later the other man died unexpectedly, without
making provision for handing on the code. Obviously future development
won't happen, which isn't really a problem because the latest version
can handle MPEG (SD), H264 (HD) and H265 (UHD formats). But because the software has a licence key (which you have to buy), there is the worry
that the licence server which validates existing installations, may one
day die. The ex-employee is trying to keep things going as long as
possible, but there is a worry that one day users may get a nasty
surprise. Sadly the widow of the head developer has no interest in
cooperating or it selling the software to anyone who can keep things going.

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On 2026-09-01 17:48, NY wrote:

On 31/08/2026 18:36, J. P. Gilliver wrote:

On 2026/8/31 8:9:41, Paul wrote:
[]

ÿÿÿÿ AI Overview

[]
Thanks for comprehensive report; lots to ponder there.

One of the major difficulties I find in choosing video (and audio)
editors, is finding any certainty that conversion is _not_ involved. The
majority of the editing I can see doing involves just cutting and
splicing segments, but in virtually all cases, I feel that some
conversion is involved.

Yes, I do realise that (for example, just extracting a section of a
video) headers will need to be regenerated, and you'd also be limited to
cutting at iframes if the videos are of that type; however, most
software I've seen either does, or doesn't show that it isn't, do some
recoding.--

I use VideoReDo for editing out continuity and commercials from off-air recordings. It regenerates i/p/b frames at the edit points, up to the
next GOP boundary, but otherwise it copies without modifying the data.
It works flawlessly.

There is a problem: it was written by a two-man team. One of the men
left the team and a bit later the other man died unexpectedly, without making provision for handing on the code. Obviously future development
won't happen, which isn't really a problem because the latest version
can handle MPEG (SD), H264 (HD) and H265 (UHD formats). But because the software has a licence key (which you have to buy), there is the worry
that the licence server which validates existing installations, may one
day die. The ex-employee is trying to keep things going as long as
possible, but there is a worry that one day users may get a nasty
surprise. Sadly the widow of the head developer has no interest in cooperating or it selling the software to anyone who can keep things going.

Perfect example of why closed source is bad?

--
Cheers, Carlos.
ES??, EU??;

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On 2026/9/1 16:48:55, NY wrote:
[]

I use VideoReDo for editing out continuity and commercials from off-air recordings. It regenerates i/p/b frames at the edit points, up to the
next GOP boundary, but otherwise it copies without modifying the data.
It works flawlessly.

Sounded exactly what I wanted ...

There is a problem: it was written by a two-man team. One of the men
left the team and a bit later the other man died unexpectedly, without making provision for handing on the code. Obviously future development
won't happen, which isn't really a problem because the latest version
can handle MPEG (SD), H264 (HD) and H265 (UHD formats). But because the software has a licence key (which you have to buy), there is the worry
that the licence server which validates existing installations, may one
day die. The ex-employee is trying to keep things going as long as
possible, but there is a worry that one day users may get a nasty
surprise. Sadly the widow of the head developer has no interest in cooperating or it selling the software to anyone who can keep things going.

... until I read that :-( . I'll have to have a look at the page Paul mentioned.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()ALIS-Ch++(p)Ar++T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Thay have a saying for it: /Geiz ist geil/, which roughly translates
as, "It's sexy to be stingly". - Joe Fattorini, RT insert 2016/9/10-16

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)