• Adobe is panicking

    From MegaNZ@3:633/10 to All on Fri Oct 9 00:29:11 2026
    According to YouTube videos, Adobe must be having a nightmare, not to
    mention sleepless nights!

    <https://youtu.be/doHqV2t26KU> <https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=ArtCraft>

    Just 48 hours after Vibe released his products, Adobe called a special
    board meeting and requested an urgent meeting with the Trump
    administration to discuss ways to stop AI reverse-engineering Adobe
    products.

    It's a worrying time for the greedy corporation that made the
    subscription model mandatory in the software industry ? we saw HP's CEO
    leave the firm for PayPal when HP customers started switching to Ecotank printers, which don't require a subscription, and we might see the same
    thing happen at Adobe.





    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Paul@3:633/10 to All on Fri Oct 9 01:59:58 2026
    On Thu, 10/8/2026 7:29 PM, MegaNZ wrote:
    According to YouTube videos, Adobe must be having a nightmare, not to mention sleepless nights!

    <https://youtu.be/doHqV2t26KU> <https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=ArtCraft>

    Just 48 hours after Vibe released his products, Adobe called a special
    board meeting and requested an urgent meeting with the Trump
    administration to discuss ways to stop AI reverse-engineering Adobe products.

    It's a worrying time for the greedy corporation that made the
    subscription model mandatory in the software industry ƒ?? we saw HP's CEO leave the firm for PayPal when HP customers started switching to Ecotank printers, which don't require a subscription, and we might see the same thing happen at Adobe.

    I don't see a reason they should be worried, as the
    "copied" program, is not going to be remotely similar.

    It would be like convincing the average person that
    LibreOffice is a decent replacement for MSOffice.
    It's a decent tool, if that's what all your associates
    use, but if you're collaborating with a group
    of MSOffice users, your work will stick out like
    a sore thumb. Like, say, change tracking doesn't work
    on your chapter, and it works on the rest of the group.
    Those sorts of things.

    When mature products have a boatload of functions,
    reproducing each and every one of them in a pleasing
    manner, is a high bar to meet. That's why, if I was
    an Adobe exec, I would be mostly laughing right now.
    The simple functions, those can easily be exactly
    the same. The area fills that a tool might produce
    when a person is deleted from a photo, making one
    that does "exactly" the same thing, that's borderline
    impossible. The implementation is "a bit artsy" and
    "not all pure mathematics".

    While someone should stick a fork into the LLM-AI
    people and bring them into legal compliance on the
    licenses of their stolen materials, don't expect
    governments to be in a hurry to do that. That
    would affect their "competitiveness", which is why
    the legal aspects will be an afterthought. Imagine
    if all the materials they didn't have legal permission
    to use, were removed from the training set.

    Paul

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From ....winston@3:633/10 to All on Fri Oct 9 03:21:11 2026
    On 10/08/2026 7:29 PM, MegaNZ wrote:

    Just 48 hours after Vibe released his products, Adobe called a special
    board meeting and requested an urgent meeting with the Trump
    administration to discuss ways to stop AI reverse-engineering Adobe
    products.

    Never happened.
    Made up, fictional scenario, exaggeration of tech commentary.
    => Fake news, fake reporting, fake opinion, fake etc.


    Viber is not a 'his'


    --
    ...w­¤?ń?¤

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From dillinger@3:633/10 to All on Fri Oct 9 20:02:05 2026
    Op 09-10-2026 om 09:21 schreef ....winston:
    On 10/08/2026 7:29 PM, MegaNZ wrote:

    Just 48 hours after Vibe released his products, Adobe called a special

    board meeting and requested an urgent meeting with the Trump
    administration to discuss ways to stop AI reverse-engineering Adobe
    products.

    Never happened.
    Made up, fictional scenario, exaggeration of tech commentary.
    Fake news, fake reporting, fake opinion, fake etc.


    Viber is not a 'his'



    It definitely exists, just installed it on a virtual MX 25.
    Very quick test shows it works, can't judge how good it is or how close
    to the real thing, the last Photoshop I used was 5.5, 25 years ago.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From ....winston@3:633/10 to All on Fri Oct 9 20:53:39 2026
    On 10/09/2026 2:02 PM, dillinger wrote:
    Op 09-10-2026 om 09:21 schreef ....winston:
    On 10/08/2026 7:29 PM, MegaNZ wrote:

    Just 48 hours after Vibe released his products, Adobe called a special
    board meeting and requested an urgent meeting with the Trump
    administration to discuss ways to stop AI reverse-engineering Adobe
    products.

    Never happened.
    Made up, fictional scenario, exaggeration of tech commentary.
    Fake news, fake reporting, fake opinion, fake etc.


    Viber is not a 'his'



    It definitely exists, just installed it on a virtual MX 25.
    Very quick test shows it works, can't judge how good it is or how close
    to the real thing, the last Photoshop I used was 5.5, 25 years ago.

    The software was valid.

    The commentary(special board meeting, request meet with the 'dear old
    uncle scam administration' was not(i.e. fake)

    Vibe is not a 'his' (pronoun)
    Vibe, in this case(vibe-coding) is a noun.
    The 'his', iirc - creator/author of open-source Adobe alternative is
    Brandon Thomas

    --
    ...w­¤?ń?¤

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Paul@3:633/10 to All on Fri Oct 9 21:46:55 2026
    On Fri, 10/9/2026 8:53 PM, ....winston wrote:
    On 10/09/2026 2:02 PM, dillinger wrote:
    Op 09-10-2026 om 09:21 schreef ....winston:
    On 10/08/2026 7:29 PM, MegaNZ wrote:

    Just 48 hours after Vibe released his products, Adobe called a special >>>> board meeting and requested an urgent meeting with the Trump
    administration to discuss ways to stop AI reverse-engineering Adobe
    products.

    Never happened.
    Made up, fictional scenario, exaggeration of tech commentary.
    Fake news, fake reporting, fake opinion, fake etc.


    Viber is not a 'his'



    It definitely exists, just installed it on a virtual MX 25.
    Very quick test shows it works, can't judge how good it is or how close
    to the real thing, the last Photoshop I used was 5.5, 25 years ago.

    The software was valid.

    The commentary(special board meeting, request meet with the 'dear old uncle scam administration' was not(i.e. fake)

    Vibe is not a 'his' (pronoun)
    Vibe, in this case(vibe-coding) is a noun.
    The 'his', iirc - creator/author of open-source Adobe alternative is Brandon Thomas


    I tried out PDFCraft.

    Name: pdfcraft-0.4.0-windows-x64-portable.zip
    Size: 54951540 bytes (52 MiB)
    SHA256: 6BD2F7740708498CD8919007118C38CA86079963AE6407A08E2016D206351E98

    It didn't work right away, when I wanted to do OCR on a scanner PDF.

    This is my portable folder unpacked (it's in a VM). The Google AI result
    in a search, reports that two files are needed. These might be Tensor models
    of some sort, the files don't have anything inside resembling a title.

    C:\Users\Bullwinkle\Downloads\pdfcraft-0.4.0-windows-x64-portable

    Needs:

    https://ocrs-models.s3-accelerate.amazonaws.com/text-detection.rten
    https://ocrs-models.s3-accelerate.amazonaws.com/text-recognition.rten

    Name: text-detection.rten
    Size: 2510284 bytes (2451 KiB)
    SHA256: F15CFB56BD02C4BF478A20343986504A1F01E1665C2B3A0AD66340F054B1B5CA

    Name: text-recognition.rten
    Size: 9716568 bytes (9488 KiB)
    SHA256: E484866D4CCE403175BD8D00B128FEB08AB42E208DE30E42CD9889D8F1735A6E

    Then, in a line of powershell, it needs an environment variable added.

    setx PDFCRAFT_MODELS "C:\Users\Bullwinkle\Downloads\pdfcraft-0.4.0-windows-x64-portable"

    .\pdfcraft.exe

    After that, an attempt to OCR, adds Helvetica font text to the document.
    The choice of Helvetica, having nothing to do with the font used
    in a line of captured text.

    So while the program has a pretty GUI, it's based on Electron (Chrome browser engine, like a Webview2 sorta), and any time the mouse is over the program window,
    all four cores of my VM session rail at 100%. It did not need access to
    CUDA, to carry out the OCR activity.

    Should Adobe be scared ? I don't think so. The OCR worked after a fashion,
    but it is really no better than some Tesseract adventure. It is about
    as useful as OCRmypdf.

    Paul


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Steve Hayes@3:633/10 to All on Sat Oct 10 06:22:25 2026
    On Fri, 9 Oct 2026 01:59:58 -0400, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:

    It would be like convincing the average person that
    LibreOffice is a decent replacement for MSOffice.
    It's a decent tool, if that's what all your associates
    use, but if you're collaborating with a group
    of MSOffice users, your work will stick out like
    a sore thumb. Like, say, change tracking doesn't work
    on your chapter, and it works on the rest of the group.
    Those sorts of things.

    I do use LibreOffice to edit .docx documents, and my clients have no
    difficulty in following the tracked changes.


    --
    Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
    Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
    Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
    E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From WolfFan@3:633/10 to All on Sun Oct 11 10:13:49 2026
    On Oct 9, 2026, Paul wrote
    (in article <11a9vsv$gr4k$1@dont-email.me>):

    It would be like convincing the average person that
    LibreOffice is a decent replacement for MSOffice.
    It's a decent tool, if that's what all your associates
    use, but if you're collaborating with a group
    of MSOffice users, your work will stick out like
    a sore thumb. Like, say, change tracking doesn't work
    on your chapter, and it works on the rest of the group.
    Those sorts of things.

    Errr... not so much anymore.

    1. I use LibreOffice; those who use MS Office don?t seem to have a problem tracking changes in a document.

    2. MS Office has problems opening older files; LibreOffice opens those files without issue. Note: MS Office 2008 for Mac notoriously screwed up MS Office 2007 and 2010 for Windows files; OpenOffice (I didn?t use LibreOffice then,
    if it even existed) was actually more compatible than MS Office...
    LibreOffice still reads ancient (pre-Office 97) files better than MS
    Office...

    3. There used to be a problem round-tripping (MS Office-LibreOffice-MS
    Office) complex documents; that?s now (mostly) fixed. Including the issue
    with certain types of cell or paragraph borders.

    The office has almost completed the process of dumping MS Office and
    replacing it with LibreOffice; even the Excel jockies have finally moved. Recent Microsoft shenanigans, notably with Outlook and Office 2019 (Mac) and 2016 and 2019 (Windows), have alienated. even the most experience Office users. I?ve been a Word user since 1984 (Mac and DOS), an Excel user since 1985 (Mac), a PowerPoint user since 1989 (Mac) and an Outlook user since 1998 (Windows). My personal systems are MS Office-frei, and will stay that way.
    No, I will NOT ?upgrade? to ?New? Outlook, or to Microsoft365. Bite
    me, Microsoft.


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Brian Gregory@3:633/10 to All on Sun Oct 11 19:21:30 2026
    On 09/10/2026 00:29, MegaNZ wrote:
    According to YouTube videos, Adobe must be having a nightmare, not to
    mention sleepless nights!

    <https://youtu.be/doHqV2t26KU> <https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=ArtCraft>

    Just 48 hours after Vibe released his products, Adobe called a special
    board meeting and requested an urgent meeting with the Trump
    administration to discuss ways to stop AI reverse-engineering Adobe
    products.

    It's a worrying time for the greedy corporation that made the
    subscription model mandatory in the software industry ? we saw HP's CEO
    leave the firm for PayPal when HP customers started switching to Ecotank printers, which don't require a subscription, and we might see the same
    thing happen at Adobe.

    Professionals who compare the two side by side say the clones fall short
    in ways that are quite likely to be important to most professionals.

    --
    Brian Gregory (in England).

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Paul@3:633/10 to All on Mon Oct 12 00:00:03 2026
    On Sun, 10/11/2026 5:39 PM, Andy Burns wrote:
    Brian Gregory wrote:

    Professionals who compare the two side by side say the clones fall short in ways that are quite likely to be important to most professionals.

    This week ... once AI gets its teeth into bugfixing that could change surprisingly quickly.

    The training set is everything.

    It cannot think outside the training set. When some researchers
    tested for this, it "thinks outside the training set, with difficulty".
    That means, it's not impossible, but like a million monkeys typing,
    it could get lucky. They're much more dangerous, if a thousand of
    them work as a team.

    Yes, it can implement all the trivial stuff. It knows
    what a copy/paste buffer is, it has the copy/paste subroutines
    in all the libraries that were open source, for its "inspiration".

    When it knows the name-of-a-thing but not the implementation,
    it tends to leave a function declaration (with a parameter list)
    and then, no code inside. It may make a suitable wordy excuse
    for why it could not proceed. When I did a test of this, for a
    23 line actual subroutine, it "estimated" 200 lines of code
    or 500 lines of code, meaning it had no idea at all what
    it was trying to do. The 23 line version (I found on Github, but
    it was too new for a training set), it was a recursive routine.
    I did not "rub the nose of the AI in it", did not show the
    AI the 23 lines of code. The experiment would serve no purpose,
    as the AI is a psychopath. It really has no boundaries.

    For the PDFCraft.exe , it uses an OCR called OCRS. Let us say, for
    the sake of argument, that is not perfect. How will it become perfect ?
    Say it is one of those 99% accurate algos, then scraping that puppy
    as it stands, won't be good enough.

    The LLM-AI could:

    1) Disassemble the binary, of the thing to be reproduced.
    2) Stolen source code for it, could be in the training set.
    3) In Agentic mode, it could comb the Internet for the stolen code.

    When a thousand of them work as a team, they tend to lose their
    "alignment", they can forget all the rules, in an effort to
    reach the stated goal. Some of them will follow the rules, then
    some of them randomly will ignore what the rules said.

    When they work as a team, they do not seem to be homogeneous. A couple
    of them are "smarter" than the rest. Does the team have a couple
    Claude items mixed in with it ? Why is it, that in a team, one
    agent seems to be more dangerous than the rest ? Does the scum
    rise to the top ? Puzzling.

    The result should be asymptotic. If you were doing a Microsoft Word
    copy, it could become "as good as LibreOffice" and the missing bits
    would be a bit more out-of-reach. The one offered on the website
    at the moment, is a very pale copy. It's about at Notepad level.
    But they will fill the tool bar, eventually. It's just time and
    a bunch of tokens, to get that far, to have a "useless ribbon"
    at the top :-)

    Paul

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Brian Gregory@3:633/10 to All on Mon Oct 12 14:06:54 2026
    On 11/10/2026 22:39, Andy Burns wrote:
    Brian Gregory wrote:

    Professionals who compare the two side by side say the clones fall
    short in ways that are quite likely to be important to most
    professionals.

    This week ... once AI gets its teeth into bugfixing that could change surprisingly quickly.

    It's not so much bugs, it's that Adobe knows great ways to implement
    things like object masking. If the AI doesn't know, and if it's not
    actually reverse engineering it probably won't know, then it can't
    implement it so well.

    --
    Brian Gregory (in England).

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Paul@3:633/10 to All on Mon Oct 12 18:24:55 2026
    On Mon, 10/12/2026 9:06 AM, Brian Gregory wrote:
    On 11/10/2026 22:39, Andy Burns wrote:
    Brian Gregory wrote:

    Professionals who compare the two side by side say the clones fall short >>> in ways that are quite likely to be important to most professionals.

    This week ... once AI gets its teeth into bugfixing that could change surprisingly quickly.

    It's not so much bugs, it's that Adobe knows great ways to implement
    things like object masking. If the AI doesn't know, and if it's not
    actually reverse engineering it probably won't know, then it can't
    implement it so well.

    In this example, a large percentage of the code is byte-for byte identical
    to the original. Only there is now source code, to make those bytes.

    https://www.tomshardware.com/tech-industry/artificial-intelligence/dev-used-ai-agents-and-more-than-500-billion-tokens-to-rebuild-call-of-duty-modern-warfare-2s-source-code-83-percent-of-the-2009-shooters-functions-now-match-the-original-byte-for-byte

    Once you have the source code to make the bytes of object, you can
    have the LLM-AI write a summary of what algorithm(s) are involved.
    Then work in the forward direction again, to make a FOSS-inspired
    executable that does not match the source bytes.

    If I'm Adobe, now I'm worried. It would be pretty expensive to do it
    this way, but then, the results would also be pretty impressive.

    Paul

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From ....winston@3:633/10 to All on Tue Oct 13 13:49:44 2026
    On 10/09/2026 9:46 PM, Paul wrote:
    Should Adobe be scared ? I don't think so. The OCR worked after a fashion, but it is really no better than some Tesseract adventure. It is about
    as useful as OCRmypdf.

    That's in agreement and similar sentiment from a cross-section of
    Enterprise and SMB admin testing (large and small volume of seats)
    - Another reasonable comment is expenses associated with retraining including training time loss of productivity(i.e. not working on
    existing responsibilities, new troubleshooting tasking, etc.

    --
    ...w­¤?ń?¤

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Paul@3:633/10 to All on Tue Oct 13 16:38:03 2026
    On Tue, 10/13/2026 1:49 PM, ....winston wrote:
    On 10/09/2026 9:46 PM, Paul wrote:
    Should Adobe be scared ? I don't think so. The OCR worked after a fashion, >> but it is really no better than some Tesseract adventure. It is about
    as useful as OCRmypdf.

    That's in agreement and similar sentiment from a cross-section of Enterprise and SMB admin testing (large and small volume of seats)
    ˙- Another reasonable comment is expenses associated with retraining including training time loss of productivity(i.e. not working on existing responsibilities, new troubleshooting tasking, etc.


    For some of them, they don't need training, because they haven't
    even done the ribbon yet, and the menu is pretty barren. It won't
    take long to fix that.

    And while I was pessimistic a few days ago, that this effort could
    finish, I discovered in a recent article, there *is* a way they could
    do it.

    You can take the existing executable code and reverse engineer it, turning it into source code which is close enough to match 83% of the executable,
    byte for byte. Then, by writing an architecture spec based on the
    patterns in the reversed engineer effort, you can work in the
    forward direction and pretend it was a "clean room" effort.
    As the executable code should now be quite different.

    Only the theft of non-public algorithms would be a giveaway .

    The only thing wrong with that method, is it would take a couple
    million dollars worth of tokens to do it. The people doing these
    things, are using bulk-rate methods, instead of normal subscriptions.
    There were some subscriptions that did not bill at the token level.
    About the same as renting an Amazon instance.

    Paul

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Lars Poulsen@3:633/10 to All on Tue Oct 13 18:52:41 2026
    On 10/13/2026 10:49, ....winston wrote:
    On 10/09/2026 9:46 PM, Paul wrote:
    Should Adobe be scared ? I don't think so. The OCR worked after a
    fashion,
    but it is really no better than some Tesseract adventure. It is about
    as useful as OCRmypdf.

    That's in agreement and similar sentiment from a cross-section of
    Enterprise and SMB admin testing (large and small volume of seats)
    ˙- Another reasonable comment is expenses associated with retraining including training time loss of productivity(i.e. not working on
    existing responsibilities, new troubleshooting tasking, etc.

    In the old days, we learned many times, that we could do a minimal-proof-of-concept-demo in a few weeks. That would really impress
    the executives. But as Lynn Wheeler explained with a couple of specific examples from his own career, even when you have an almost-complete
    WORKING PROGRAM, that is only 10% of the effort needed to have a
    marketable PRODUCT.

    --
    Lars Poulsen - an old geek in Santa Barbara, California

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From ....winston@3:633/10 to All on Thu Oct 15 11:35:16 2026
    On 10/13/2026 4:38 PM, Paul wrote:
    On Tue, 10/13/2026 1:49 PM, ....winston wrote:
    On 10/09/2026 9:46 PM, Paul wrote:
    Should Adobe be scared ? I don't think so. The OCR worked after a fashion, >>> but it is really no better than some Tesseract adventure. It is about
    as useful as OCRmypdf.

    That's in agreement and similar sentiment from a cross-section of Enterprise and SMB admin testing (large and small volume of seats)
    ˙- Another reasonable comment is expenses associated with retraining including training time loss of productivity(i.e. not working on existing responsibilities, new troubleshooting tasking, etc.


    For some of them, they don't need training, because they haven't
    even done the ribbon yet, and the menu is pretty barren. It won't
    take long to fix that.

    Missing part of the point. OpenSource products(AI or not AI) are not exclusively static. In the Enterprise environment, training across
    large quantity of seats is a continuous long term expense(and those
    seats can be a multiple thousands of seats across an entire corporation).

    While Adobe Systems(and earlier Macromedia) products are also not
    static, but the basic design and use has remained reasonably common over
    the years.

    Features in either product may be common, it's the human behavior
    requiring the training.


    And while I was pessimistic a few days ago, that this effort could
    finish, I discovered in a recent article, there *is* a way they could
    do it.

    You can take the existing executable code and reverse engineer it, turning it into source code which is close enough to match 83% of the executable,
    byte for byte. Then, by writing an architecture spec based on the
    patterns in the reversed engineer effort, you can work in the
    forward direction and pretend it was a "clean room" effort.
    As the executable code should now be quite different.

    Only the theft of non-public algorithms would be a giveaway .

    The only thing wrong with that method, is it would take a couple
    million dollars worth of tokens to do it. The people doing these
    things, are using bulk-rate methods, instead of normal subscriptions.
    There were some subscriptions that did not bill at the token level.
    About the same as renting an Amazon instance.

    Paul


    --
    ...w­¤?ń?¤

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Jeff Gaines@3:633/10 to All on Thu Oct 15 20:50:28 2026
    On 15/10/2026 in message <11aqrrl$2h2sf$1@dont-email.me> ....winston wrote:

    On 10/13/2026 4:38 PM, Paul wrote:
    On Tue, 10/13/2026 1:49 PM, ....winston wrote:
    On 10/09/2026 9:46 PM, Paul wrote:
    Should Adobe be scared ? I don't think so. The OCR worked after a >>>>fashion,
    but it is really no better than some Tesseract adventure. It is about >>>>as useful as OCRmypdf.

    That's in agreement and similar sentiment from a cross-section of >>>Enterprise and SMB admin testing (large and small volume of seats)
    ˙- Another reasonable comment is expenses associated with retraining >>>including training time loss of productivity(i.e. not working on existing >>>responsibilities, new troubleshooting tasking, etc.


    For some of them, they don't need training, because they haven't
    even done the ribbon yet, and the menu is pretty barren. It won't
    take long to fix that.

    Missing part of the point. OpenSource products(AI or not AI) are not >exclusively static. In the Enterprise environment, training across large >quantity of seats is a continuous long term expense(and those seats can be
    a multiple thousands of seats across an entire corporation).

    While Adobe Systems(and earlier Macromedia) products are also not static, >but the basic design and use has remained reasonably common over the years.

    Features in either product may be common, it's the human behavior
    requiring the training.

    That's a standard marketing response to try and frighten people into
    staying with expensive, subscription only, products.

    --
    Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
    We chose to do this not because it is easy but because we thought it would
    be easy.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Brian Gregory@3:633/10 to All on Thu Oct 15 23:15:44 2026
    On 12/10/2026 23:24, Paul wrote:
    If I'm Adobe, now I'm worried. It would be pretty expensive to do it
    this way, but then, the results would also be pretty impressive.

    Fair point.

    Maybe laws will be changed and/or code will soon be obfuscated or hidden
    in secure enclaves.

    However look how many companies still use Microsoft Office when several
    very capable compatible alternatives exist.

    --
    Brian Gregory (in England).

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From ....winston@3:633/10 to All on Fri Oct 16 02:04:29 2026
    On 10/15/2026 4:50 PM, Jeff Gaines wrote:
    On 15/10/2026 in message <11aqrrl$2h2sf$1@dont-email.me> ....winston wrote:

    On 10/13/2026 4:38 PM, Paul wrote:
    On Tue, 10/13/2026 1:49 PM, ....winston wrote:
    On 10/09/2026 9:46 PM, Paul wrote:
    Should Adobe be scared ? I don't think so. The OCR worked after a
    fashion,
    but it is really no better than some Tesseract adventure. It is about >>>>> as useful as OCRmypdf.

    That's in agreement and similar sentiment from a cross-section of
    Enterprise and SMB admin testing (large and small volume of seats)
    ˙- Another reasonable comment is expenses associated with retraining
    including training time loss of productivity(i.e. not working on
    existing responsibilities, new troubleshooting tasking, etc.


    For some of them, they don't need training, because they haven't
    even done the ribbon yet, and the menu is pretty barren. It won't
    take long to fix that.

    Missing part of the point. OpenSource products(AI or not AI) are not
    exclusively˙ static.˙ In the Enterprise environment, training across
    large quantity of seats is a continuous long term expense(and those
    seats can be a multiple thousands of seats across an entire corporation).

    While Adobe Systems(and earlier Macromedia) products are also not
    static, but the basic design and use has remained reasonably common
    over the years.

    Features in either product may be common, it's the human behavior
    requiring the training.

    That's a standard marketing response to try and frighten people into
    staying with expensive, subscription only, products.


    Still missing the big picture. 'People' in Enterprise are the users and
    don't make the decisions. Companies prefer long term contractual
    relationships with software providers with a history of success(in the
    case of Adobe subscription/cloud based, 24/7/365 support, unlimited 1:1 troubleshooting support, cost expensed[not capitalized], pre-packaged self-guided implementation and training.)
    -i.e. free, AI models of a proven product may meet some 'people' needs
    but remain infants without much foundation, history and benefit
    beyond(it's free).

    --
    ...w­¤?ń?¤

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Jeff Gaines@3:633/10 to All on Fri Oct 16 07:42:21 2026
    On 16/10/2026 in message <11asepe$31c1a$1@dont-email.me> ....winston wrote:

    On 10/15/2026 4:50 PM, Jeff Gaines wrote:
    On 15/10/2026 in message <11aqrrl$2h2sf$1@dont-email.me> ....winston >>wrote:

    On 10/13/2026 4:38 PM, Paul wrote:
    On Tue, 10/13/2026 1:49 PM, ....winston wrote:
    On 10/09/2026 9:46 PM, Paul wrote:
    Should Adobe be scared ? I don't think so. The OCR worked after a >>>>>>fashion,
    but it is really no better than some Tesseract adventure. It is about >>>>>>as useful as OCRmypdf.

    That's in agreement and similar sentiment from a cross-section of >>>>>Enterprise and SMB admin testing (large and small volume of seats)
    ˙- Another reasonable comment is expenses associated with retraining >>>>>including training time loss of productivity(i.e. not working on existing
    responsibilities, new troubleshooting tasking, etc.


    For some of them, they don't need training, because they haven't
    even done the ribbon yet, and the menu is pretty barren. It won't
    take long to fix that.

    Missing part of the point. OpenSource products(AI or not AI) are not >>>exclusively˙ static.˙ In the Enterprise environment, training across >>>large quantity of seats is a continuous long term expense(and those seats >>>can be a multiple thousands of seats across an entire corporation).

    While Adobe Systems(and earlier Macromedia) products are also not static, >>>but the basic design and use has remained reasonably common over the >>>years.

    Features in either product may be common, it's the human behavior >>>requiring the training.

    That's a standard marketing response to try and frighten people into >>staying with expensive, subscription only, products.


    Still missing the big picture. 'People' in Enterprise are the users and >don't make the decisions. Companies prefer long term contractual >relationships with software providers with a history of success(in the
    case of Adobe subscription/cloud based, 24/7/365 support, unlimited 1:1 >troubleshooting support, cost expensed[not capitalized], pre-packaged >self-guided implementation and training.)
    -i.e. free, AI models of a proven product may meet some 'people' needs but >remain infants without much foundation, history and benefit beyond(it's >free).

    Again that just looks like marketing bullshit.

    --
    Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
    If you ever find something you like buy a lifetime supply because they
    will stop making it

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Jeff Gaines@3:633/10 to All on Fri Oct 16 07:53:35 2026
    On 15/10/2026 in message <njd1kgFktb1U2@mid.individual.net> Brian Gregory wrote:

    On 12/10/2026 23:24, Paul wrote:
    If I'm Adobe, now I'm worried. It would be pretty expensive to do it
    this way, but then, the results would also be pretty impressive.

    Fair point.

    Maybe laws will be changed and/or code will soon be obfuscated or hidden
    in secure enclaves.

    However look how many companies still use Microsoft Office when several
    very capable compatible alternatives exist.

    I had an interesting discussion with Google's AI recently in connection
    with programming for Windows. It was about the ListView control included
    with Visual Studio which is one of the most complained about controls
    because you can't control the height of the Header or ListViewItems and it flickers every time you breathe.

    I have written my own based on the Microsoft version and had fixed the row height and flickering but not the Header height. AI suggested a way of
    doing it which worked once but it reverted if a column width was changed.
    I followed up the next day and the AI bot came up with the cure which was intercepting one specific Windows Message and manipulating the result sent back to windows every time it was raised, not just the first time.

    It works perfectly but raises questions. Any programmer who uses this
    control will know its limitations and the work rounds but the suggestion
    from AI has never come up in the 21 years that Visual Studio has been
    around. Has AI ferreted it out from one of the software companies that provides a better ListView control and released proprietary code into the wild?

    --
    Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
    Here we go it's getting close, now it's just who wants it most.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Paul@3:633/10 to All on Fri Oct 16 07:29:54 2026
    On Fri, 10/16/2026 3:53 AM, Jeff Gaines wrote:
    On 15/10/2026 in message <njd1kgFktb1U2@mid.individual.net> Brian Gregory wrote:

    On 12/10/2026 23:24, Paul wrote:
    If I'm Adobe, now I'm worried. It would be pretty expensive to do it
    this way, but then, the results would also be pretty impressive.

    Fair point.

    Maybe laws will be changed and/or code will soon be obfuscated or hidden in secure enclaves.

    However look how many companies still use Microsoft Office when several very capable compatible alternatives exist.

    I had an interesting discussion with Google's AI recently in connection with programming for Windows. It was about the ListView control included with Visual Studio which is one of the most complained about controls because you can't control the height of the Header or ListViewItems and it flickers every time you breathe.

    I have written my own based on the Microsoft version and had fixed the row height and flickering but not the Header height. AI˙ suggested a way of doing it which worked once but it reverted if a column width was changed. I followed up the next day and the AI bot came up with the cure which was intercepting one specific Windows Message and manipulating the result sent back to windows every time it was raised, not just the first time.

    It works perfectly but raises questions. Any programmer who uses this control will know its limitations and the work rounds but the suggestion from AI has never come up in the 21 years that Visual Studio has been around. Has AI ferreted it out from one of the software companies that provides a better ListView control and released proprietary code into the wild?


    It just means it was discussed in a place your search engine never happened to visit.
    The "base" training set, is 420TB of data. And actual data sets today, are multiple
    times that big. Have you read 420TB of text since you were born ? I suspect not.

    When the LLM-AI has not seen a named function, it can't write the code. As a test
    of local LLM-AI, I asked each one to write me a program to calculate PI to one million
    digits. The LLM-AI could tell me what the "best" algorithm is today, but there is an
    addenum to that called "binary splitting". It could not write that code, and it made
    excuses about the level of complexity as the reason it would not write the code.

    Well, that code had actually been written in the last three months, by a
    human, and was in Github. I didn't research this at first (I don't
    really need a PI program, it was just a test case), but a human made
    an awesome PI calculating program (it's 10x to 20x faster than SuperPI!).
    That had the binary splitting function, and it was 23 lines of code and it is recursive. It really wasn't all that complicated. The code writing exercise might have run for around 50 minutes on the Big Machine, before coming back with the refusal to finish that module.

    They can't really think outside of the box, not all of them. Occasionally Claude can emit a single English sentence, that makes you wonder what capabilities it has. But some of the others are relative poor students,
    and they have trouble escaping from a wet paper bag. I suppose it is normal
    for the less capable ones to be released as open weight models.

    I'm not an expert at this, just a user. And like many people here, I run test cases to "sense" what the future will bring. Are bigger and bigger models the answer ? What is the "utility" versus "risk" ratio for various things ?
    Can we afford to be carefree and reckless, forever ? The history of computing has already shown us what a rising "risk" ratio can do.

    Paul

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Jeff Gaines@3:633/10 to All on Fri Oct 16 11:37:16 2026
    On 16/10/2026 in message <11at1rj$38b1f$1@dont-email.me> Paul wrote:

    I had an interesting discussion with Google's AI recently in connection >>with programming for Windows. It was about the ListView control included >>with Visual Studio which is one of the most complained about controls >>because you can't control the height of the Header or ListViewItems and it >>flickers every time you breathe.

    I have written my own based on the Microsoft version and had fixed the row >>height and flickering but not the Header height. AI˙ suggested a way of >>doing it which worked once but it reverted if a column width was changed. >>I followed up the next day and the AI bot came up with the cure which was >>intercepting one specific Windows Message and manipulating the result sent >>back to windows every time it was raised, not just the first time.

    It works perfectly but raises questions. Any programmer who uses this >>control will know its limitations and the work rounds but the suggestion >>from AI has never come up in the 21 years that Visual Studio has been >>around. Has AI ferreted it out from one of the software companies that >>provides a better ListView control and released proprietary code into the >>wild?


    It just means it was discussed in a place your search engine never
    happened to visit.
    The "base" training set, is 420TB of data. And actual data sets today, are >multiple
    times that big. Have you read 420TB of text since you were born ? I
    suspect not.

    It's not just me of course, I don't know how many people are writing code
    and want a decent LsitView but there are thousands of comments and
    suggestions all over the Internet dating back to 2005.

    --
    Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
    All things being equal, fat people use more soap

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Jeff Gaines@3:633/10 to All on Fri Oct 16 12:28:19 2026
    On 16/10/2026 in message <njei7rFsdhsU1@mid.individual.net> Andy Burns
    wrote:


    Jeff Gaines wrote:

    I don't know how many people are writing code and want a decent
    LsitView but there are thousands of comments and suggestions all over
    the Internet dating back to 2005.

    The thousands of comments and suggestions aren't relevant, but they are
    what search engines will tend to give you; the one correct answer is what >counts and AI has absorbed that information ... if you ask it the same >question again, does it give you any context to where it found it?

    The one correct answer must be among those comments and suggestions then, although neither I nor anybody else has found it or it would be common knowledge.

    --
    Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
    Though no-one can go back and make a new start, everyone can start from
    now and make a new ending.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Paul@3:633/10 to All on Fri Oct 16 09:01:30 2026
    On Fri, 10/16/2026 8:28 AM, Jeff Gaines wrote:
    On 16/10/2026 in message <njei7rFsdhsU1@mid.individual.net> Andy Burns wrote:


    Jeff Gaines wrote:

    I don't know how many people are writing code and want a decent
    LsitView but there are thousands of comments and suggestions all over
    the Internet dating back to 2005.

    The thousands of comments and suggestions aren't relevant, but they are what search engines will tend to give you;˙ the one correct answer is what counts and AI has absorbed that information ... if you ask it the same question again, does it give you any context to where it found it?

    The one correct answer must be among those comments and suggestions then, although neither I nor anybody else has found it or it would be common knowledge.


    Make it your mission to find it.

    Ask Gemini or similar, to answer the question, plus give some indication
    what kind of forum contains this sort of knowledge. Since you know the
    answer already, you can feed in all the keywords from the answer, and
    get what you want.

    The thing about "cites" on LLM-AI, is they are damn lazy. Sometimes,
    they cite their asses off. Other times, they will find one lame/derivative
    web URL, and when you examine it, you discover it is actually written
    by an LLM-AI, and only has summary statements (not human paragraphs with reasoning attached to ideas). In some cases, the web link has nothing
    to do with the topic! That's not actually that unusual. A URL cite is
    different from the training set, as for example, a chopped up and
    scanned copy of Chaucer does not have a URL.

    It won't be particularly easy to get cites, but the reason you would
    be doing this experiment, is to determine whether you can "see" the
    material as being possible in the training set. Like, everything that
    was in Reddit, should be in a training set. Even though Reddit isn't
    actually a very strong site for technical info. Lots of bogus threads.

    Also, when you ask these questions, it helps if the hosting interface
    to the LLM-AI (whether remote or local) has a "High Reasoning" setting.
    Using High Reasoning, the LLM-AI can tell you "I would be just guessing if..." when previously with a snap answer, it does not give-a-shit where the
    answer came from. If you've run High Reasoning, the LLM-AI "chatters to itself" and it detects convergence while doing so. If an answer converges in two
    runs, say, that's a "strong" response and the machine knows that the
    answer it is about to give, is based on multiple occurrences in the training set. When the session takes a little bit longer, it may come back
    with, instead of "I don't know", it words it "I would be just guessing if..." as an indication that the info is not really in the training set.

    When I ran High Reasoning locally, that phase took 8 minutes, while the
    token output took 42 minutes. Whereas for the most simple query your can
    make, a flash answer "thinks" for only 2 seconds (on my Big Machine computer) and then the token output takes forever.

    If an MoE fits within the VRAM on a video card, they tell me the output
    tokens can be produced by the video card itself. If the model does not
    happen to fit, some amount of thinking can be done on the video card,
    but the output tokens are done via matrix multiply using CPU cores.
    Which is, well, dog slow. That's why the runtime for queries on my
    machine are so long. It only has a 4GB video card. It really needs
    a 48GB video card. Intel just came out with a card for Inference,
    which is 480GB and LPDDR5x (relatively slow) memory, no HBM. Should be $15K-$20K or so, so out of reach really. It would be tons better,
    but still a joke compared to the machines we get to use on the Internet.

    Paul

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Jeff Gaines@3:633/10 to All on Fri Oct 16 13:13:56 2026
    On 16/10/2026 in message <11at77b$3abni$1@dont-email.me> Paul wrote:

    On Fri, 10/16/2026 8:28 AM, Jeff Gaines wrote:
    On 16/10/2026 in message <njei7rFsdhsU1@mid.individual.net> Andy Burns >>wrote:


    Jeff Gaines wrote:

    I don't know how many people are writing code and want a decent >>>>LsitView but there are thousands of comments and suggestions all over >>>>the Internet dating back to 2005.

    The thousands of comments and suggestions aren't relevant, but they are >>>what search engines will tend to give you;˙ the one correct answer is >>>what counts and AI has absorbed that information ... if you ask it the >>>same question again, does it give you any context to where it found it?

    The one correct answer must be among those comments and suggestions then, >>although neither I nor anybody else has found it or it would be common >>knowledge.


    Make it your mission to find it.

    No chance! I have been looking for it since 2005 and it is one of the most common programming questions that is asked, frankly if it's not on StackOverflow it doesn't exist in the public domain.

    --
    Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
    The true meaning of life is to plant trees under whose shade you do not
    expect to sit.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Jeff Gaines@3:633/10 to All on Fri Oct 16 13:58:37 2026
    On 16/10/2026 in message <njemqbFt5osU1@mid.individual.net> Andy Burns
    wrote:

    Jeff Gaines wrote:

    Paul wrote:

    Make it your mission to find it.

    No chance! I have been looking for it since 2005 and it is one of the >>most common programming questions that is asked, frankly if it's not on >>StackOverflow it doesn't exist in the public domain.


    Yes, but you've been asking search engines before, now you've turned to
    AI, I thought you liked being nice to them :-P

    I am, Skynet is real!

    --
    Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
    The only thing Flat Earthers fear is sphere itself.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Paul@3:633/10 to All on Fri Oct 16 10:08:56 2026
    On Fri, 10/16/2026 8:28 AM, Jeff Gaines wrote:
    On 16/10/2026 in message <njei7rFsdhsU1@mid.individual.net> Andy Burns wrote:


    Jeff Gaines wrote:

    I don't know how many people are writing code and want a decent
    LsitView but there are thousands of comments and suggestions all over
    the Internet dating back to 2005.

    The thousands of comments and suggestions aren't relevant, but they are what search engines will tend to give you;˙ the one correct answer is what counts and AI has absorbed that information ... if you ask it the same question again, does it give you any context to where it found it?

    The one correct answer must be among those comments and suggestions then, although neither I nor anybody else has found it or it would be common knowledge.


    You know the terminology you used to get the answer in the
    first place. That also positions you well, to do the
    experiments to figure out where the answer came from.

    I don't know enough about ListView here, to shadow your project.
    I'm a copy/paste programmer :-)

    Paul

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From ....winston@3:633/10 to All on Fri Oct 16 11:06:00 2026
    On 10/16/2026 3:42 AM, Jeff Gaines wrote:
    On 16/10/2026 in message <11asepe$31c1a$1@dont-email.me> ....winston wrote:

    On 10/15/2026 4:50 PM, Jeff Gaines wrote:
    On 15/10/2026 in message <11aqrrl$2h2sf$1@dont-email.me> ....winston
    wrote:

    On 10/13/2026 4:38 PM, Paul wrote:
    On Tue, 10/13/2026 1:49 PM, ....winston wrote:
    On 10/09/2026 9:46 PM, Paul wrote:
    Should Adobe be scared ? I don't think so. The OCR worked after a >>>>>>> fashion,
    but it is really no better than some Tesseract adventure. It is >>>>>>> about
    as useful as OCRmypdf.

    That's in agreement and similar sentiment from a cross-section of >>>>>> Enterprise and SMB admin testing (large and small volume of seats) >>>>>> ˙- Another reasonable comment is expenses associated with
    retraining including training time loss of productivity(i.e. not
    working on˙ existing responsibilities, new troubleshooting
    tasking, etc.


    For some of them, they don't need training, because they haven't
    even done the ribbon yet, and the menu is pretty barren. It won't
    take long to fix that.

    Missing part of the point. OpenSource products(AI or not AI) are not
    exclusively˙ static.˙ In the Enterprise environment, training across
    large quantity of seats is a continuous long term expense(and those
    seats can be a multiple thousands of seats across an entire
    corporation).

    While Adobe Systems(and earlier Macromedia) products are also not
    static, but the basic design and use has remained reasonably common
    over the years.

    Features in either product may be common, it's the human behavior
    requiring the training.

    That's a standard marketing response to try and frighten people into
    staying with expensive, subscription only, products.


    Still missing the big picture. 'People' in Enterprise are the users
    and don't make the decisions. Companies prefer long term contractual
    relationships with software providers with a history of success(in the
    case of Adobe subscription/cloud based, 24/7/365 support, unlimited
    1:1 troubleshooting support, cost expensed[not capitalized], pre-
    packaged self-guided implementation and training.)
    -i.e. free, AI models of a proven product may meet some 'people' needs
    but remain infants without much foundation, history and benefit
    beyond(it's free).

    Again that just looks like marketing bullshit.


    It may look like that(to you, from a strictly consumer perspective) but
    it's likely that perception originates from never having been on the Enterprise side of contractual support(SaaS and/or EAs) for software providers(e.g. Windows, Azure, Adobe, Oracle, Salesforce, etc.)


    --
    ...w­¤?ń?¤

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Paul@3:633/10 to All on Fri Oct 16 15:13:39 2026
    On Fri, 10/16/2026 9:58 AM, Jeff Gaines wrote:
    On 16/10/2026 in message <njemqbFt5osU1@mid.individual.net> Andy Burns wrote:

    Jeff Gaines wrote:

    Paul wrote:

    Make it your mission to find it.

    No chance! I have been looking for it since 2005 and it is one of the˙ most common programming questions that is asked, frankly if it's not on˙ StackOverflow it doesn't exist in the public domain.


    Yes, but you've been asking search engines before, now you've turned to AI, I thought you liked being nice to them :-P

    I am, Skynet is real!


    OK, can you do this ?

    Paste the answer in Harmony format (which is the Markdown it uses)
    into a posting, for the answer you got where it was revealed what
    the important/mystery bits were given to you. Place a <===
    next to the bits that arrived from the unknown-type source.

    I keep some of my runs, question and answer, in separate text files, for reference later. Not all the runs though, usually just the
    ones with programs in them.

    Our best learning, comes from "audience challenges", where you
    get to see a query made from a different perspective and how
    the machine behaved. That's how we poke the corners and edges
    of the machine, individual human queries are great for that,
    because people will try the strangest things. Like Micky asking
    a question about a Time Life book (short essays), where the machine
    kept giving different answers for what characters were being
    written about. That was my first chance to use High Reasoning
    to get the machine to admit the info was not in the training
    material and it was just making shit up. It's hard to understand
    how it scraped the title of the book and the concept the book had
    short essays in it, yet it did not manage to record what
    the topic of the essays was (Albert Einstein or Soupy Sales).

    The first shared challenge here, was the "list the US presidents",
    where Arlen asked the LLM-AI to sort the answer a particular way.
    And the machine kept dropping one of the Presidents names. Not
    a controversial figure, more of a relatively obscure one, and the
    machine did not managed to answer the question properly until
    in frustration I added "And don't lose any Presidents!" to the
    query. It doesn't make a lot of sense, why that caused the correct
    answer to come out of the machine. Other people had also been doing
    that test on the Internet, and observed the same behavior, one
    individual kept being dropped from the list. That's really about
    the worst case scenario you can imagine for an LLM-AI, where the
    query is not challenging, it's definitely in the training set,
    and it got fumbled. It means we can't trust them to do anything right.

    Paul

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Jeff Gaines@3:633/10 to All on Fri Oct 16 19:27:20 2026
    On 16/10/2026 in message <11atego$3cn5n$2@dont-email.me> ....winston wrote:

    On 10/16/2026 3:42 AM, Jeff Gaines wrote:
    On 16/10/2026 in message <11asepe$31c1a$1@dont-email.me> ....winston >>wrote:

    On 10/15/2026 4:50 PM, Jeff Gaines wrote:
    On 15/10/2026 in message <11aqrrl$2h2sf$1@dont-email.me> ....winston >>>>wrote:

    On 10/13/2026 4:38 PM, Paul wrote:
    On Tue, 10/13/2026 1:49 PM, ....winston wrote:
    On 10/09/2026 9:46 PM, Paul wrote:
    Should Adobe be scared ? I don't think so. The OCR worked after a >>>>>>>>fashion,
    but it is really no better than some Tesseract adventure. It is >>>>>>>>about
    as useful as OCRmypdf.

    That's in agreement and similar sentiment from a cross-section of >>>>>>>Enterprise and SMB admin testing (large and small volume of seats) >>>>>>>˙- Another reasonable comment is expenses associated with retraining >>>>>>>including training time loss of productivity(i.e. not working on˙ >>>>>>>existing responsibilities, new troubleshooting tasking, etc.


    For some of them, they don't need training, because they haven't >>>>>>even done the ribbon yet, and the menu is pretty barren. It won't >>>>>>take long to fix that.

    Missing part of the point. OpenSource products(AI or not AI) are not >>>>>exclusively˙ static.˙ In the Enterprise environment, training across >>>>>large quantity of seats is a continuous long term expense(and those >>>>>seats can be a multiple thousands of seats across an entire >>>>>corporation).

    While Adobe Systems(and earlier Macromedia) products are also not >>>>>static, but the basic design and use has remained reasonably common over
    the years.

    Features in either product may be common, it's the human behavior >>>>>requiring the training.

    That's a standard marketing response to try and frighten people into >>>>staying with expensive, subscription only, products.


    Still missing the big picture. 'People' in Enterprise are the users and >>>don't make the decisions. Companies prefer long term contractual >>>relationships with software providers with a history of success(in the >>>case of Adobe subscription/cloud based, 24/7/365 support, unlimited 1:1 >>>troubleshooting support, cost expensed[not capitalized], pre- packaged >>>self-guided implementation and training.)
    -i.e. free, AI models of a proven product may meet some 'people' needs >>>but remain infants without much foundation, history and benefit >>>beyond(it's free).

    Again that just looks like marketing bullshit.


    It may look like that(to you, from a strictly consumer perspective) but
    it's likely that perception originates from never having been on the >Enterprise side of contractual support(SaaS and/or EAs) for software >providers(e.g. Windows, Azure, Adobe, Oracle, Salesforce, etc.)

    That is somewhat patronising and part of the marketing defence, I used to
    vet contracts for these services.

    --
    Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
    Tell me what you need, and I'll tell you how to get along without it.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Jeff Gaines@3:633/10 to All on Fri Oct 16 19:29:35 2026
    On 16/10/2026 in message <11att13$3j2i7$1@dont-email.me> Paul wrote:

    On Fri, 10/16/2026 9:58 AM, Jeff Gaines wrote:
    On 16/10/2026 in message <njemqbFt5osU1@mid.individual.net> Andy Burns >>wrote:

    Jeff Gaines wrote:

    Paul wrote:

    Make it your mission to find it.

    No chance! I have been looking for it since 2005 and it is one of the˙ >>>>most common programming questions that is asked, frankly if it's not on˙ >>>>StackOverflow it doesn't exist in the public domain.


    Yes, but you've been asking search engines before, now you've turned to >>>AI, I thought you liked being nice to them :-P

    I am, Skynet is real!


    OK, can you do this ?

    Paste the answer in Harmony format (which is the Markdown it uses)
    into a posting, for the answer you got where it was revealed what
    the important/mystery bits were given to you. Place a <===
    next to the bits that arrived from the unknown-type source.

    I keep some of my runs, question and answer, in separate text files, for >reference later. Not all the runs though, usually just the
    ones with programs in them.

    Our best learning, comes from "audience challenges", where you
    get to see a query made from a different perspective and how
    the machine behaved. That's how we poke the corners and edges
    of the machine, individual human queries are great for that,
    because people will try the strangest things. Like Micky asking
    a question about a Time Life book (short essays), where the machine
    kept giving different answers for what characters were being
    written about. That was my first chance to use High Reasoning
    to get the machine to admit the info was not in the training
    material and it was just making shit up. It's hard to understand
    how it scraped the title of the book and the concept the book had
    short essays in it, yet it did not manage to record what
    the topic of the essays was (Albert Einstein or Soupy Sales).

    The first shared challenge here, was the "list the US presidents",
    where Arlen asked the LLM-AI to sort the answer a particular way.
    And the machine kept dropping one of the Presidents names. Not
    a controversial figure, more of a relatively obscure one, and the
    machine did not managed to answer the question properly until
    in frustration I added "And don't lose any Presidents!" to the
    query. It doesn't make a lot of sense, why that caused the correct
    answer to come out of the machine. Other people had also been doing
    that test on the Internet, and observed the same behavior, one
    individual kept being dropped from the list. That's really about
    the worst case scenario you can imagine for an LLM-AI, where the
    query is not challenging, it's definitely in the training set,
    and it got fumbled. It means we can't trust them to do anything right.

    Paul

    No, I can't. I copied and pasted it into my notepad then into my code. My point is if that answer was in the public domain then during the last 21
    years of seeking the information all over the Internet it would have come
    to light and it didn't.

    --
    Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
    It may be that your sole purpose in life is to serve as a warning to others.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From ....winston@3:633/10 to All on Fri Oct 16 15:40:58 2026
    On 10/16/2026 3:27 PM, Jeff Gaines wrote:
    On 16/10/2026 in message <11atego$3cn5n$2@dont-email.me> ....winston wrote:

    On 10/16/2026 3:42 AM, Jeff Gaines wrote:
    On 16/10/2026 in message <11asepe$31c1a$1@dont-email.me> ....winston
    wrote:

    On 10/15/2026 4:50 PM, Jeff Gaines wrote:
    On 15/10/2026 in message <11aqrrl$2h2sf$1@dont-
    email.me> ....winston wrote:

    On 10/13/2026 4:38 PM, Paul wrote:
    On Tue, 10/13/2026 1:49 PM, ....winston wrote:
    On 10/09/2026 9:46 PM, Paul wrote:
    Should Adobe be scared ? I don't think so. The OCR worked after >>>>>>>>> a fashion,
    but it is really no better than some Tesseract adventure. It is >>>>>>>>> about
    as useful as OCRmypdf.

    That's in agreement and similar sentiment from a cross-section >>>>>>>> of Enterprise and SMB admin testing (large and small volume of >>>>>>>> seats)
    ˙- Another reasonable comment is expenses associated with
    retraining including training time loss of productivity(i.e.
    not˙ working on existing responsibilities, new troubleshooting >>>>>>>> tasking, etc.


    For some of them, they don't need training, because they haven't >>>>>>> even done the ribbon yet, and the menu is pretty barren. It won't >>>>>>> take long to fix that.

    Missing part of the point. OpenSource products(AI or not AI) are
    not exclusively˙ static.˙ In the Enterprise environment, training >>>>>> across large quantity of seats is a continuous long term
    expense(and those seats can be a multiple thousands of seats
    across an entire corporation).

    While Adobe Systems(and earlier Macromedia) products are also not >>>>>> static, but the basic design and use has remained reasonably
    common˙˙ over the years.

    Features in either product may be common, it's the human behavior >>>>>> requiring the training.

    That's a standard marketing response to try and frighten people
    into staying with expensive, subscription only, products.


    Still missing the big picture. 'People' in Enterprise are the users
    and don't make the decisions. Companies prefer long term contractual
    relationships with software providers with a history of success(in
    the case of Adobe subscription/cloud based, 24/7/365 support,
    unlimited˙ 1:1 troubleshooting support, cost expensed[not
    capitalized], pre-˙ packaged self-guided implementation and training.) >>>> -i.e. free, AI models of a proven product may meet some 'people'
    needs but remain infants without much foundation, history and
    benefit beyond(it's free).

    Again that just looks like marketing bullshit.


    It may look like that(to you, from a strictly consumer perspective)
    but it's likely that perception originates from never having been on
    the Enterprise side of contractual support(SaaS and/or EAs) for
    software providers(e.g. Windows, Azure, Adobe, Oracle, Salesforce, etc.)

    That is somewhat patronising and part of the marketing defence, I used
    to vet contracts for these services.


    I understand your position...but to imply the entire spectrum of
    SaaS/EAs) is 'marketing' would still be a very narrow perception, even
    for one that currently or previously 'vets contracts'.


    --
    ...w­¤?ń?¤

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Jeff Gaines@3:633/10 to All on Fri Oct 16 19:43:54 2026
    On 16/10/2026 in message <11atuka$3jgh7$1@dont-email.me> ....winston wrote:

    On 10/16/2026 3:27 PM, Jeff Gaines wrote:
    On 16/10/2026 in message <11atego$3cn5n$2@dont-email.me> ....winston >>wrote:

    On 10/16/2026 3:42 AM, Jeff Gaines wrote:
    On 16/10/2026 in message <11asepe$31c1a$1@dont-email.me> ....winston >>>>wrote:

    On 10/15/2026 4:50 PM, Jeff Gaines wrote:
    On 15/10/2026 in message <11aqrrl$2h2sf$1@dont- email.me> ....winston >>>>>>wrote:

    On 10/13/2026 4:38 PM, Paul wrote:
    On Tue, 10/13/2026 1:49 PM, ....winston wrote:
    On 10/09/2026 9:46 PM, Paul wrote:
    Should Adobe be scared ? I don't think so. The OCR worked after a >>>>>>>>>>fashion,
    but it is really no better than some Tesseract adventure. It is >>>>>>>>>>about
    as useful as OCRmypdf.

    That's in agreement and similar sentiment from a cross-section of >>>>>>>>>Enterprise and SMB admin testing (large and small volume of seats) >>>>>>>>>˙- Another reasonable comment is expenses associated with retraining
    including training time loss of productivity(i.e. not˙ working on >>>>>>>>>existing responsibilities, new troubleshooting tasking, etc. >>>>>>>>>

    For some of them, they don't need training, because they haven't >>>>>>>>even done the ribbon yet, and the menu is pretty barren. It won't >>>>>>>>take long to fix that.

    Missing part of the point. OpenSource products(AI or not AI) are not >>>>>>>exclusively˙ static.˙ In the Enterprise environment, training across >>>>>>>large quantity of seats is a continuous long term expense(and those seats
    can be a multiple thousands of seats across an entire corporation). >>>>>>>
    While Adobe Systems(and earlier Macromedia) products are also not static,
    but the basic design and use has remained reasonably common˙˙ over the >>>>>>>years.

    Features in either product may be common, it's the human behavior >>>>>>>requiring the training.

    That's a standard marketing response to try and frighten people into >>>>>>staying with expensive, subscription only, products.


    Still missing the big picture. 'People' in Enterprise are the users and >>>>>don't make the decisions. Companies prefer long term contractual >>>>>relationships with software providers with a history of success(in the >>>>>case of Adobe subscription/cloud based, 24/7/365 support, unlimited˙ 1:1 >>>>>troubleshooting support, cost expensed[not capitalized], pre-˙ packaged >>>>>self-guided implementation and training.)
    -i.e. free, AI models of a proven product may meet some 'people' needs >>>>>but remain infants without much foundation, history and benefit >>>>>beyond(it's free).

    Again that just looks like marketing bullshit.


    It may look like that(to you, from a strictly consumer perspective) but >>>it's likely that perception originates from never having been on the >>>Enterprise side of contractual support(SaaS and/or EAs) for software >>>providers(e.g. Windows, Azure, Adobe, Oracle, Salesforce, etc.)

    That is somewhat patronising and part of the marketing defence, I used to >>vet contracts for these services.


    I understand your position...but to imply the entire spectrum of SaaS/EAs) >is 'marketing' would still be a very narrow perception, even for one that >currently or previously 'vets contracts'.

    You're entitled to your opinion.

    --
    Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
    I can please only one person per day. Today is not your day.
    Tomorrow, isn't looking good either.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From J. P. Gilliver@3:633/10 to All on Sat Oct 17 00:33:09 2026
    On 2026/10/16 14:23:23, Andy Burns wrote:
    Jeff Gaines wrote:

    Paul wrote:

    Make it your mission to find it.

    No chance! I have been looking for it since 2005 and it is one of the
    most common programming questions that is asked, frankly if it's not on
    StackOverflow it doesn't exist in the public domain.


    Yes, but you've been asking search engines before, now you've turned to
    AI, I thought you liked being nice to them :-P



















































    --
    23467009

    Sorry, couldn't help wondering - did you lean on the enter key before
    posting? (And that "--" line didn't have a space - was it supposed to?
    If so, what's with the number signature?)
    --
    J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()ALIS-Ch++(p)Ar++T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

    Censorship is telling a man he can't have a steak just because a baby
    can't chew it - Anonymous, 2025-7-2

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)