According to Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid>:

I know that the DRM used by Adobe Digital Editions can be broken (for
backup purposes). I assume that something similar can be done with the >Amazon system.

Yup. There is a calibre plugin.

I wondered, though, if an ebook can be resold or transferred to another >user, legally, ie, keeping the DRM. Something similar to what a library >does.

In the US at least, the answer is no. For Kindle books there is a technical issue that the DRM includes the serial number of the device. If you have several devices on your Kindle account, the copies downloaded to each have different serial numbers.

The major issue is that this has been litigated in court and the answer was a firm no. A decade ago Redigi tried to make an aftermarket in iTunes downloads. They tried very hard to make it work and prevent sellers from keeping a copy but the record labels sued and won and Redigi is no more. Publishers claim that
you don't buy e-books, you only license them, and the terms of the license say it's specific to you, no resale or sublicense. The Amazon lend a book to a friend feature is a narrow carveout in the license, not a general lending right.

I think this is absurd, and it is clearly an end run around the well settled first sale principle that says once you've bought a physical book, you can do anything with it you want other than make copies. That's why libraries exist; publishers claim they love libraries but if the law let them they would put the same restrictions on paper books that they do on e-books.

The law is somewhat different in other countries, but I don't know any that have first sale for e-books.
--
Regards,
John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly

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On 2025-05-08 19:14, John Levine wrote:

According to Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid>:

I know that the DRM used by Adobe Digital Editions can be broken (for
backup purposes). I assume that something similar can be done with the
Amazon system.

Yup. There is a calibre plugin.

I wondered, though, if an ebook can be resold or transferred to another
user, legally, ie, keeping the DRM. Something similar to what a library
does.

In the US at least, the answer is no. For Kindle books there is a technical issue that the DRM includes the serial number of the device. If you have several devices on your Kindle account, the copies downloaded to each have different serial numbers.

The major issue is that this has been litigated in court and the answer was a firm no. A decade ago Redigi tried to make an aftermarket in iTunes downloads.
They tried very hard to make it work and prevent sellers from keeping a copy but the record labels sued and won and Redigi is no more. Publishers claim that
you don't buy e-books, you only license them, and the terms of the license say
it's specific to you, no resale or sublicense. The Amazon lend a book to a friend feature is a narrow carveout in the license, not a general lending right.

Ah. I see.

But if I'm only getting a license to read the book while I am alive, the
price should be significantly smaller than for the paper book, which can
be inherited, or resold or gifted, for centuries.

I think this is absurd, and it is clearly an end run around the well settled first sale principle that says once you've bought a physical book, you can do anything with it you want other than make copies. That's why libraries exist; publishers claim they love libraries but if the law let them they would put the
same restrictions on paper books that they do on e-books.

The law is somewhat different in other countries, but I don't know any that have first sale for e-books.

I don't know what exactly the law says here, in for dummies version.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

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According to rbowman <bowman@montana.com>:

Paperback $9.99
Hardcover $21.24
Kindle $11.99

I have no idea how many others may have an inverted pricing structure.

It's first sale. They're selling the books which they have bought from
the publisher, but renting you the e-book as the publisher's agent. They
have a lot more flexibility in pricing physical books.

--
Regards,
John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly

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On 2025-05-09 03:19, John Levine wrote:

According to rbowman <bowman@montana.com>:

Paperback $9.99
Hardcover $21.24
Kindle $11.99


I have no idea how many others may have an inverted pricing structure.

It's first sale. They're selling the books which they have bought from
the publisher, but renting you the e-book as the publisher's agent. They have a lot more flexibility in pricing physical books.

I haven't noticed this with Kobo. I can not say "they don't do this",
only that I haven't noticed.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

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On 2025-05-09 02:48, rbowman wrote:

On Thu, 8 May 2025 22:42:31 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:

But if I'm only getting a license to read the book while I am alive, the
price should be significantly smaller than for the paper book, which can
be inherited, or resold or gifted, for centuries.

amazon.com/Termination-Shock-Novel-Neal-Stephenson-ebook/dp/B08WLWC6GZ

Paperback $13.49
Hardcover $14.50
Kindle $17.99

Clicking around randomly, most Kindle versions are cheaper than print.

amazon.com/dp/B0079XPUOW

Antoher exception

Paperback $9.99
Hardcover $21.24
Kindle $11.99

I have no idea how many others may have an inverted pricing structure.
Why? Not only does the print edition have to be manufactured but they have
to ship it to me.

Indeed.

When CDs were introduced they were mostly targeting the hi-brow and audiophile market. When they entered the general market I assumed they
would be cheaper than cassettes. Copying to tape is time consuming even at 100x the playback speed in a loop bin duplicator. CDs are literally
stamped out.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compact_disc#Manufacture,_cost,_and_pricing

Sometimes I'm naive. It's new! It's better! It has to cost more even
though it costs us less! That's the American way!

Yeah, pricing is nuts, everywhere. The strategy is charge as most as the client is prepared to pay.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

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On 2025-05-09, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

On Fri, 9 May 2025 12:31:47 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:

Yeah, pricing is nuts, everywhere. The strategy is charge as most as the
client is prepared to pay.

I never had much interest in statistics or economics but both were
required courses. I recall much ink devoted to graphing marginal cost
versus marginal revenue and similar techniques to maximize profits.

That was the first course I stopped attending as part of my slide
out the bottom of academia.

The more depressing part of statistics was trying to find the sweet point between QA costs and the costs of replacing defective units. At what frequency should you test widgets to insure the defective products don't exceed 5% of the output if the cost of replacing those 5% is less than the cost of more frequent testing?

Reminds me of that story of the firm that ordered parts from a Japanese supplier, specifying a 1% defect rate. Upon receiving the shipment, they
found a few parts in a plastic bag sitting on top of the rest of the order. They called up the supplier for an explanation and were told: "You requested
a 1% defect rate. For your convenience we've packed the defective parts separately."

I have the feeling a lot of quants and their figurative slide rules can be replaced by AI.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Growth for the sake of
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | growth is the ideology
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | of the cancer cell.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Edward Abbey

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