On Thu, 01 Jan 2026 15:27:07 -1000, Lynn Wheeler wrote:

I was on Chessin's XTP TAB 2nd part of the 80s and there were some
gov/mil (including SAFENET2) so we took it too X3S3.3 ... but eventually
got told that ISO had rule they could only standardize stuff that
conformed to OSI Model.

XTP didn't because 1) supported internetworking which didn't exist in
OSI, 2) bypassed network/transport interface, 3) went directly to
LAN/MAC interface which doesn't exist in OSI.

For those who were wondering ...

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xpress_Transport_Protocol>

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

According to Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com>:

Why was nobody interested in offering a suitably scalable rival to
TCP/IP? Perhaps because in those days companies wanted to monetize
everything. I?m sure there were alternative protocols available -- for
a price. TCP/IP was the only one whose creators were offering it for
free -- no NDAs, no patent licensing, nothing.

I think the alternatives were X.25 and various "network architectures"
from different vendors, that all looked like SNA. SNA was a complete mess.

The alternative was supposed to be OSI, which suffered greatly from being designed by a large international committee that tended to solve disagreements by adding all the features that anyone wanted. It died of heat death while TCP/IP was good enough and had a lot of interoperating implementations, many of which were (and are) free.



--
Regards,
John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> writes:

I think the alternatives were X.25 and various "network architectures"
from different vendors, that all looked like SNA. SNA was a complete
mess.

On 2026-01-02, Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> wrote:

The Internet That Wasn't. How TCP/IP eclipsed the Open
Systems Interconnection standards to become the global protocol for
computer networking
https://spectrum.ieee.org/osi-the-internet-that-wasnt

Oh, those bad old days, when we all used TCP/IP while getting paid to
implement OSI protocol stacks.

SNA seemed to me to be designed around the IBM32xx transaction
terminals. The entire structure revolved around the assumption that a
network would have a hierarchical structure with ONE central node
coordinating the whole network. This was why it could not be used for
Lynn's "IBM Internal Network", which was built on low-level point-
to-point links emulating IBM2780 RJE terminals, and where the protocol
assumed that the "terminal" was initiating the connection.
For a network to become truly universal, it has to allow connection
between equal peers, what Lynn calls "Internetworking".

SNA could easily have won out, if IBM had been willing to concede
some of these points:
- allow peer-to-peer networks (internetworking) and have a way
for departments (such as research groups) in one company to
connect to groups in other companies, maybe through intermediaries
(neutral brokers).
- allow outsiders to implement the protocol set without exorbitant
royalties.
- cede control of the standard to an independent body.

OSI could have won if
- the registry were optional or if it had been specified FIRST
in an extensible manner
- a non-profit had sponsored a basic reference implementation with
enough features to be useful, and thereafter any new extesnsions
to the protocol set had to be tested/certified/demonstrated to
interwork with that reference

TCP/IP won because
- it had internetworking
- it was all peer-to-peer
- the protocols were open source, developed by working engineers
and graduate student to solve real-world problems
- it HAD to be proven to work before being accepted as "standard

Truth, beauty and the Internet Way:
"We believe in rough concensus and running code!"

Vint Cerf guided the process masterfully. I asked Edge AI ?s Vint Cerf
still alive?

"Yes, Vint Cerf is alive. He is currently 79 years old and remains active
in his role as Google's Chief Internet Evangelist, continuing his
efforts to advance the beneficial use of the Internet. He will turn 80
this year."

Also: https://www.the-independent.com/tech/vint-cerf-father-internet-b2582067.html

--
Lars Poulsen - an old geek in Santa Barbara, California

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> writes:

newspaper article about some of Edson's Internet & TCP/IP IBM battles: https://web.archive.org/web/20000124004147/http://www1.sjmercury.com/svtech/columns/gillmor/docs/dg092499.htm
Also from wayback machine, some additional (IBM missed, Internet &
TCP/IP) references from Ed's website https://web.archive.org/web/20000115185349/http://www.edh.net/bungle.htm

late 80s, a senior disk engineer got a talk scheduled at internal,
world-wide, annual communication group conference, supposedly on 3174 performance. However, his opening was that the communication group was
going to be responsible for the demise of the disk division. The disk
division was seeing drop in disk sales with data fleeing mainframe
datacenters to more distributed computing friendly platforms. The disk
division had come up with a number of solutions, but they were
constantly being vetoed by the communication group (with their corporate ownership of everything that crossed the datacenter walls) trying to
protect their dumb terminal paradigm. Senior disk software executive
partial countermeasure was investing in distributed computing startups
that would use IBM disks (he would periodically ask us to drop in on his investments to see if we could offer any assistance).

The communication group's stranglehold on mainframe datacenters wasn't
just disks and a couple years later, IBM has one of the largest losses
in the history of US companies ... and was being reorganized into the 13
"baby blues" (take-off on the "baby bells" breakup a decade earlier) in preperation for breaking up IBM. https://web.archive.org/web/20101120231857/http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,977353,00.html
https://content.time.com/time/subscriber/article/0,33009,977353-1,00.html
We had already left IBM but get a call from the bowels of Armonk asking
if we could help with the breakup. Before we get started, the board
brings in the former AMEX president as CEO to try and save the company,
who (somewhat) reverses the breakup and uses some of the same techniques
used at RJR (gone 404, but lives on at wayback) https://web.archive.org/web/20181019074906/http://www.ibmemployee.com/RetirementHeist.shtml

other trivia: in the early 80s, I was funded for HSDT project, T1 and
faster computer links (both terrestrial and satellite) and battles with
SNA group (60s, IBM had 2701 supporting T1, 70s with SNA/VTAM and
issues, links were capped at 56kbit ... and I had to mostly resort to
non-IBM hardware). Also was working with NSF director and was suppose to
get $20M to interconnect the NSF Supercomputer centers. Then congress
cuts the budget, some other things happened and eventually there was RFP released (in part based on what we already had running). NSF 28Mar1986 Preliminary Announcement (from old archived a.f.c post): https://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002k.html#12
The OASC has initiated three programs: The Supercomputer Centers Program
to provide Supercomputer cycles; the New Technologies Program to foster
new supercomputer software and hardware developments; and the Networking Program to build a National Supercomputer Access Network - NSFnet.

... IBM internal politics was not allowing us to bid. The NSF director
tried to help by writing the company a letter (3Apr1986, NSF Director to
IBM Chief Scientist and IBM Senior VP and director of Research, copying
IBM CEO) with support from other gov. agencies ... but that just made
the internal politics worse (as did claims that what we already had
operational was at least 5yrs ahead of the winning bid), as regional
networks connect in, NSFnet becomes the NSFNET backbone, precursor to
modern internet. Note RFP had called for T1 links, however winning bid
put in 440kbit/sec links ... then to make it look something like T1,
they put in T1 trunks with telco multiplexors running multiple
440kbit/sec links over T1 trunks.

When director left NSF, he went over to K (H?) street lobby group
(council on competitiveness) and we would try and periodically drop in
on him

--
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On Fri, 2 Jan 2026 14:08:08 -0000 (UTC), Lars Poulsen wrote:

- allow peer-to-peer networks (internetworking) ...

I never came across this usage of ?internetworking? before. From the
textbooks, I always understood it to mean ?connections between
separate, autonomous networks?.

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On Fri, 02 Jan 2026 08:27:29 -1000, Lynn Wheeler wrote:

The disk division had come up with a number of solutions, but they
were constantly being vetoed by the communication group (with their
corporate ownership of everything that crossed the datacenter walls)
trying to protect their dumb terminal paradigm.

IBM were legendary (notorious?) for having just about the biggest
patent hoard of any company back in the day, and for the sheer number
of papers published by their research division.

But my impression of their shipping products was that very little of
this cutting-edge cleverness actually made it into production. SNA
being a case in point.

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

Al Kossow <aek@bitsavers.org> writes:

Chessin came to visit us in the Systems Technology Group at Apple ATG
and we had a nice discussion.

I had wondered whatever happened to XTP.

TCP had minimum 7 packet exchange and XTP defined a reliable transaction
with minimum of 3 packet exchange. Issue was that TCP/IP was part of
kernel distribution requiring physical media (and typically some
expertise for complete system change/upgrade; browsers and webservers
were self contained load&go).

XTP also defined things like trailer protocol where interface hardware
could do CRC as packet flowing through and do the append/check
... helping minimize packet fiddling (as well as other pieces of
protocol offloading, Chessin also liked to draw analogies with SGI
graphic card process pipelining). Problem was that there were lots of
push back (part of claim at the time HTTPS prevailing over IPSEC) for
any kernel change prereq.

topic drift ... 1988, HA/6000 was approved, initially for NYTimes to
migrate their newspaper system off DEC VAXCluster to RS/6000. I rename
it HA/CMP https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_High_Availability_Cluster_Multiprocessing when I start doing technical/scientific cluster scale-up with national
labs (LANL, LLNL, NCAR, etc, also porting LLNL LINCS and NCAR
filesystems to HA/CMP) and commercial cluster scale-up with RDBMS
vendors (Oracle, Sybase, Ingres, Informix) that had VAXCluster support
in same source base with unix (also do DLM supporting VAXCluster
semantics).

Early Jan92, have a meeting with Oracle CEO where IBM AWD executive
Hester tells Ellison that we would have 16-system clusters by mid92 and 128-system clusters by ye92. Mid Jan92, convince IBM FSD to bid HA/CMP
for gov. supercomputers. Late Jan92, cluster scale-up is transferred for announce as IBM Supercomputer (for technical/scientific *ONLY*) and we
are told we can't do clusters with anything that involve more than four
systems (we leave IBM a few months later).

Partially blamed FSD going up to the IBM Kingston supercomputer group to
tell them they were adopting HA/CMP for gov. bids (of course somebody
was going to have to do it eventually). A couple weeks later, 17feb1992, Computerworld news ... IBM establishes laboratory to develop parallel
systems (pg8)
https://archive.org/details/sim_computerworld_1992-02-17_26_7

Not long after leaving IBM, was brought in as consulatnt to small
client/server startup, two former Oracle people (that had worked on
HA/CMP and were in the Ellison/Hester meeting) are there responsible for something call "commerce server" and they want to do payment
transactions. The startup had also invented this stuff they called "SSL"
they want to use, it is now frequently calle "e-commerce". I had
responsibility between web servers and payment networks, including the
payment gateways.

One of the problems with HTTP&HTTPS were transactions built on top of
TCP ... implementation that sort of assumed long lived sessions (made it
easier to install on top kernel TCP/IP protocol stack). As webserver
workload ramped up, web servers were starting to spend 95+% of CPU
running FINWAIT list. NETSCAPE was increasing number of servers and
trying to spread the workload. Eventually NETSCAPE installs a large multiprocessor server from SEQUENT (that had also redone DYNIX FINWAIT processing to eliminate that non-linear increase in CPU overhead).

XTP had provided for piggy-back transaction processing to keep packet
exchange overhead to minimum ... and I showed HTTPS over XTP in the
minimum 3-packet exchange (existing HTTPS had to 1st establish TCP
session, then establish HTTPS, then the transaction, then shutdown
session).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xpress_Transport_Protocol

other trivia: I then did a talk on "Why Internet Isn't Business Critical Dataprocessing" based on documentation, processes and software I had to
do for e-commerce, which (IETF RFC editor) Postel sponsored at ISI/USC.

more trivia: when 1st started doing TCP/IP over high-speed satellite
links, established dynamic adaptive rate-based pacing implementation
... which I also got written into the XTP spec.

--
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On Fri, 02 Jan 2026 13:27:04 -1000, Lynn Wheeler wrote:

XTP had provided for piggy-back transaction processing to keep
packet exchange overhead to minimum ...

And HTTP/3 (aka QUIC) works over UDP for a similar reason, doesn?t it.
How does that compare, efficiency-wise?

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On 2026-01-01 21:25, Lawrence D?Oliveiro wrote:

The Arpanet started switching over from the old NCP protocol it had
been using to this new TCP/IP thing on 1st January 1983 <https://www.tomshardware.com/networking/arpanet-standardized-tcp-ip-on-this-day-in-1983-43-year-old-standard-set-the-foundations-for-todays-internet>.
The transition took six months to complete.

The article says:

In contrast, the open, scalable, and hardware-agnostic TCP/IP
managed to get a clear run at widespread adoption, and succeeded.
One could say it won - not by being the best protocol designed to
connect everything - but by being the only one.

Why was nobody interested in offering a suitably scalable rival to
TCP/IP? Perhaps because in those days companies wanted to monetize everything. I?m sure there were alternative protocols available -- for
a price. TCP/IP was the only one whose creators were offering it for
free -- no NDAs, no patent licensing, nothing.

DECnet anyone?

The case against DECnet was partly the concern that it was designed by
one of the companies competing in the space, even though the DECnet
specs were fully open and anyone could do their own implementation.

Second point was that the address space of DECnet was too small.
Basically just a 16-bit address, compared to the 32 bits in IPv4.

There are some really cool and nice things in DECnet, but there are also
some ugly bits in there. Especially some of the application level
protocols...

Johnny


--- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On 2026-01-04, Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> wrote:

On 2026-01-01 21:25, Lawrence D?Oliveiro wrote:

The Arpanet started switching over from the old NCP protocol it had
been using to this new TCP/IP thing on 1st January 1983
<https://www.tomshardware.com/networking/arpanet-standardized-tcp-ip-on-this-day-in-1983-43-year-old-standard-set-the-foundations-for-todays-internet>.
The transition took six months to complete.

The article says:

In contrast, the open, scalable, and hardware-agnostic TCP/IP
managed to get a clear run at widespread adoption, and succeeded.
One could say it won - not by being the best protocol designed to
connect everything - but by being the only one.

Why was nobody interested in offering a suitably scalable rival to
TCP/IP? Perhaps because in those days companies wanted to monetize
everything. I?m sure there were alternative protocols available -- for
a price. TCP/IP was the only one whose creators were offering it for
free -- no NDAs, no patent licensing, nothing.

DECnet anyone?

The case against DECnet was partly the concern that it was designed by
one of the companies competing in the space, even though the DECnet
specs were fully open and anyone could do their own implementation.

Second point was that the address space of DECnet was too small.
Basically just a 16-bit address, compared to the 32 bits in IPv4.

There are some really cool and nice things in DECnet, but there are also some ugly bits in there. Especially some of the application level protocols...

The address space concern was addressed in DECnet Phase V - which
IIRC was structured with a foundational packet format that matched
low-level ISO protocols. The larger address space also made it possible
to tunnel it across the Internet.

Unfortunately, the structural changes were so large that you could not
mix it with the earlier generations in the same network, so the adoption
rate was rather low. Sort of like the IPv4 to IPv6 transition.

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On 2026-01-04 16:53, Lars Poulsen wrote:

On 2026-01-04, Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> wrote:

On 2026-01-01 21:25, Lawrence D?Oliveiro wrote:

The Arpanet started switching over from the old NCP protocol it had
been using to this new TCP/IP thing on 1st January 1983
<https://www.tomshardware.com/networking/arpanet-standardized-tcp-ip-on-this-day-in-1983-43-year-old-standard-set-the-foundations-for-todays-internet>.
The transition took six months to complete.

The article says:

In contrast, the open, scalable, and hardware-agnostic TCP/IP
managed to get a clear run at widespread adoption, and succeeded.
One could say it won - not by being the best protocol designed to
connect everything - but by being the only one.

Why was nobody interested in offering a suitably scalable rival to
TCP/IP? Perhaps because in those days companies wanted to monetize
everything. I?m sure there were alternative protocols available -- for
a price. TCP/IP was the only one whose creators were offering it for
free -- no NDAs, no patent licensing, nothing.

DECnet anyone?

The case against DECnet was partly the concern that it was designed by
one of the companies competing in the space, even though the DECnet
specs were fully open and anyone could do their own implementation.

Second point was that the address space of DECnet was too small.
Basically just a 16-bit address, compared to the 32 bits in IPv4.

There are some really cool and nice things in DECnet, but there are also
some ugly bits in there. Especially some of the application level
protocols...

The address space concern was addressed in DECnet Phase V - which
IIRC was structured with a foundational packet format that matched
low-level ISO protocols. The larger address space also made it possible
to tunnel it across the Internet.

Unfortunately, the structural changes were so large that you could not
mix it with the earlier generations in the same network, so the adoption
rate was rather low. Sort of like the IPv4 to IPv6 transition.

Well, that isn't exactly true. DECnet phase IV nodes and DECnet phase V
nodes can talk fine with each other.

However, phase V was/is a headache in general, not to mention that it
was way later than TCP/IP v4, so it wasn't even an option at the time.

Johnny


--- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)