• Re: Emacs Turns 50, gpl is still a bad idea

    From John Levine@3:633/10 to All on Fri Oct 30 17:49:16 2026
    According to Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid>:
    https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-3.0.en.html

    I'm not a lawyer so I cannot figure out this steaming pile of legalese.

    In short, if a corporation is arguing that GPLv3 is a reason not to use >software or newer versions under that license, you probably should steer >clear of that corporation, that means either they don't intend to honor
    the freedoms they need to honor in strong copyleft, or that they're
    trying to reserve the right of defeating these freedoms with >patent-wrangling.

    Or is there something else I've forgotten about?

    Yes.

    Apple signs the software they distribute. As I read the GPLv3, if they
    ever signed a piece of GPLv3 software, they'd be required to sign
    every modified version of it, no matter how full of malware it was.
    That's nuts.

    --
    Regards,
    John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
    Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Nuno Silva@3:633/10 to All on Sat Oct 31 01:13:54 2026
    On 2026-10-30, John Levine wrote:

    According to Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid>:

    [was this by rbowman?:]
    https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-3.0.en.html

    I'm not a lawyer so I cannot figure out this steaming pile of legalese.

    In short, if a corporation is arguing that GPLv3 is a reason not to use >>software or newer versions under that license, you probably should steer >>clear of that corporation, that means either they don't intend to honor
    the freedoms they need to honor in strong copyleft, or that they're
    trying to reserve the right of defeating these freedoms with >>patent-wrangling.

    Or is there something else I've forgotten about?

    Yes.

    Apple signs the software they distribute. As I read the GPLv3, if they
    ever signed a piece of GPLv3 software, they'd be required to sign
    every modified version of it, no matter how full of malware it was.
    That's nuts.

    From what I recall, they only have to do that if they reject
    installation of modified versions that have been signed with other keys
    or not signed at all.

    So if it gets to that point, it's *their* choice of complicating things,
    and it's also clear they're locking people out of modifying the free
    software. (And it'd be a plain example of TiVoization.)

    --
    Nuno Silva

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Tapiro Ubriaco@3:633/10 to All on Sat Oct 31 18:45:45 2026
    On Fri, 30 Oct 2026 17:49:16 -0000 (UTC), John Levine wrote:


    Apple signs the software they distribute. As I read the GPLv3, if they
    ever signed a piece of GPLv3 software, they'd be required to sign every modified version of it, no matter how full of malware it was. That's
    nuts.

    I'm sorry, I'm not following.
    Would you you explain?

    Much appreciated.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Nuno Silva@3:633/10 to All on Sun Nov 1 01:17:07 2026
    On 2026-10-31, Tapiro Ubriaco wrote:

    On Fri, 30 Oct 2026 17:49:16 -0000 (UTC), John Levine wrote:


    Apple signs the software they distribute. As I read the GPLv3, if they
    ever signed a piece of GPLv3 software, they'd be required to sign every
    modified version of it, no matter how full of malware it was. That's
    nuts.

    I'm sorry, I'm not following.
    Would you you explain?

    Much appreciated.

    This probably means you can only install bash packages that have been
    signed with prcivate keys of Apple, at least as part of the operating
    system's install.

    --
    Nuno Silva

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Waldek Hebisch@3:633/10 to All on Sun Nov 1 15:06:21 2026
    In alt.folklore.computers John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> wrote:
    According to Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid>:

    In short, if a corporation is arguing that GPLv3 is a reason not to use >>software or newer versions under that license, you probably should steer >>clear of that corporation, that means either they don't intend to honor
    the freedoms they need to honor in strong copyleft, or that they're
    trying to reserve the right of defeating these freedoms with >>patent-wrangling.

    Or is there something else I've forgotten about?

    Yes.

    Apple signs the software they distribute. As I read the GPLv3, if they
    ever signed a piece of GPLv3 software, they'd be required to sign
    every modified version of it, no matter how full of malware it was.
    That's nuts.

    IIUC currenlty in iOS user can istall additional software only
    when it is signed by Apple. _That_ is nuts, users should own
    machines that thay paid for and as owners thay should be able
    to install whatever software they wish. Of course, what
    users want to install could turn out to be malware, but
    users who have enough trust in Apple could opt to install only
    Apple-signed software. Othere should be free to install
    what they want.

    AFAICS GPLv3 require that users can install modified versions
    of software. This is easily solvable by having additional
    signing keys. One possibility is that people with physical
    access to "virgin" machine can access administrative interface
    and install additional keys. User who wish so could secure
    access to administrative interface. Another possiblity is
    to have machine specific signing keys issued to owner of the
    machine. The second puts some burden on Apple (they would have
    to distribute keys). Assuming access to Internet one could use
    certificate system so that intalled binaries would be checked that
    they are signed by appropriate entity and users could choose
    which keys they accept (that is probably more convenient variation
    of the first approach).

    Current Apple policy is marginally easier to implement than the
    above. But it looks that current policy is used by Apple
    mainly due to monopoly aspects: it gives Appla monopoly control
    of the whole iOS software market and Apple charges fee to allow
    third party access to that market. Clearly, user managed keys
    would eliminate this monoply, leading to more healthy market
    but less revenue to Apple.

    BTW: In current political/security climate I would expect states
    to have laws that all software installed on machines sold in
    any given state be signed by appropriate authority of this state.
    And at least bigger states should insist on access to source code
    and that distributed software mathes the sources. Leaving
    critical infrastructure like software and software controlled
    devices at mercy of foreign companies looks highly irresponsible.

    --
    Waldek Hebisch

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Tapiro Ubriaco@3:633/10 to All on Wed Nov 4 12:14:29 2026
    On Sun, 01 Nov 2026 01:17:07 +0000, Nuno Silva wrote:

    On 2026-10-31, Tapiro Ubriaco wrote:

    On Fri, 30 Oct 2026 17:49:16 -0000 (UTC), John Levine wrote:


    Apple signs the software they distribute. As I read the GPLv3, if they
    ever signed a piece of GPLv3 software, they'd be required to sign
    every modified version of it, no matter how full of malware it was.
    That's nuts.

    I'm sorry, I'm not following.
    Would you you explain?

    Much appreciated.

    This probably means you can only install bash packages that have been
    signed with prcivate keys of Apple, at least as part of the operating system's install.

    Yes, fine, but what about "being required to sign every modified version
    of it"?

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Nuno Silva@3:633/10 to All on Wed Nov 4 15:12:00 2026
    On 2026-11-04, Tapiro Ubriaco wrote:

    On Sun, 01 Nov 2026 01:17:07 +0000, Nuno Silva wrote:

    On 2026-10-31, Tapiro Ubriaco wrote:

    On Fri, 30 Oct 2026 17:49:16 -0000 (UTC), John Levine wrote:


    Apple signs the software they distribute. As I read the GPLv3, if they >>>> ever signed a piece of GPLv3 software, they'd be required to sign
    every modified version of it, no matter how full of malware it was.
    That's nuts.

    I'm sorry, I'm not following.
    Would you you explain?

    Much appreciated.

    This probably means you can only install bash packages that have been
    signed with prcivate keys of Apple, at least as part of the operating
    system's install.

    Yes, fine, but what about "being required to sign every modified version
    of it"?

    If they only allow their own keys to sign software to install at that
    level, then that's what they have to do in order to ensure users can
    exercise their right to modify the free software, otherwise they're
    basically trying to get away with GPL violation. GPLv3 made this more
    explicit.

    --
    Nuno Silva

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)