cbc is reporting that there is quite a racket going on about
people stealing property titles (under false identities) and
arranging morgages on those titles! ..or even arranging the
SALE of those homes!

the only way that can happen is if realestate agents, lawyers
and banks are complicit or slack in some way. why wouldn't a
bank or a lawyer verify the ownership - in person if necessary?
my guess.. a lawyer is lazy and assumes that the papers or the
person in front of them are true, signs off the title, and
someone in the bank (wrt arranging the mortgage) is lazy or an
insider.


--
../|ug

--- OpenXP 5.0.57
* Origin: Stare into this point intently ->.<- (1:153/757.21)

the only way that can happen is if realestate agents, lawyers
and banks are complicit or slack in some way. why wouldn't a
bank or a lawyer verify the ownership - in person if necessary?
my guess.. a lawyer is lazy and assumes that the papers or the
person in front of them are true, signs off the title, and
someone in the bank (wrt arranging the mortgage) is lazy or an
insider.

Here, they are supposed to do title searches (IIRC, that the buyer pays
for) to make sure the person selling the home has the right to. Do they
have such rules in Canada?

Mike


* SLMR 2.1a * Midget soothsayer robs bank! Small medium at large....
--- SBBSecho 3.14-Linux
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cbc is reporting that there is quite a racket going on about

>people stealing property titles (under false identities) and
>arranging morgages on those titles! ..or even arranging the
>SALE of those homes!

the only way that can happen is if realestate agents, lawyers

>and banks are complicit or slack in some way. why wouldn't a
>bank or a lawyer verify the ownership - in person if necessary?
>my guess.. a lawyer is lazy and assumes that the papers or the
>person in front of them are true, signs off the title, and
>someone in the bank (wrt arranging the mortgage) is lazy or an
>insider.

The problem, which should never have been allowed to exist, is that they have replaced Title Searches with Title Insurance. It saves everyone time and money but leaves a home sale open to things like this. Eventually everyone should
get their money back but it's a real mess. To clarify, quite often the thieves get away with down payments or mortgage funds but an Insurance company pays
for the problem.

I'm not right up to date on this but I do know that at one time, someone who bought a house being sold by someone who didn't own it, was allowed to keep the house since the title was transferred legally, which was equally ridiculous, but I *think* things have improved a bit since then.
---
* SLMR Rob * Drop your carrier... We have you surrounded
* Origin: capitolcityonline.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/HTTP (1:2320/105)

Hello Rob!

** On Wednesday 25.01.23 - 00:44, you wrote to AUGUST ABOLINS:

The problem, which should never have been allowed to
exist, is that they have replaced Title Searches with
Title Insurance.

It just seems to easy to misrepresent oneself as the true owner
of a property. Meanwhile, no one seems to check with the
actual owners themselves! ..and a property can proceed with a
mortgage/sale and the true owners don't even have a clue that
is going on.

To clarify, quite often the thieves get away with down
payments or mortgage funds but an Insurance company pays
for the problem.

This is the problem with purely relying on paper documents to
"prove" identity - they don't.

I'm not right up to date on this but I do know that at one
time, someone who bought a house being sold by someone who
didn't own it, was allowed to keep the house since the
title was transferred legally, which was equally
ridiculous, but I *think* things have improved a bit since
then.

How could it have been deemed "transferred legally" when it was
done criminally? The problem is that people working in these
offices (banks, deed office, lawyers, etc..) just look at "the
documents" and not the people (their history, background, photo
matches, etc.)
--
../|ug

--- OpenXP 5.0.57
* Origin: Stare into this point intently ->.<- (1:153/757.21)

Hello Mike!

Here, they are supposed to do title searches (IIRC, that
the buyer pays for) to make sure the person selling the
home has the right to. Do they have such rules in Canada?

You'd think that a title search would be the bare minimum. But
banks don't seem to care. They seem to rely on a "document of
transfer" that bares anything that looks like a lawyer's stamp.
Do they confirm the process with the lawyer's office or
research the legitimacy of that lawayer? ..doesn't look like
it.

The whole process is just about paper pushing.
--
../|ug

--- OpenXP 5.0.57
* Origin: Stare into this point intently ->.<- (1:153/757.21)

Hi August..

The problem, which should never have been allowed to exist, is that

> they have replaced Title Searches with Title Insurance.

It just seems to easy to misrepresent oneself as the true owner

>of a property. Meanwhile, no one seems to check with the
>actual owners themselves! ..and a property can proceed with a
>mortgage/sale and the true owners don't even have a clue that
>is going on.

I actually ran across some info on it since posting this and it's
not quite as easy as it sounds, the 'sellers' have to do an actual
identity theft to pull it off, having drivers license numbers and
Social Insurance numbers and such, but we know these things still
happen fairly frequently. They mentioned on the news that it is run
most often by organized crime. Something like 30 homes in Toronto alone
have been subject to this in the past year, mostly Mortgage fraud, not
the sale of the house fraud, which is much harder to pull off.

A story mentioned that in 4 cases the house was actually sold, and
one couple only found out about it because their mortgage had been
paid off - which would have to be done before the house could be sold.
(They were out of the country for 4 years with the house rented out.)

It was mentioned that 'the system' believes the new owners legally own
the property but there's no further info on what can be done to get it
back. It's apparently a little messier than buying a stolen car..

Everyone believes something should be done to prevent this but it's one
of those things where it will take time for the law to catch up with
the crime.. and I think That is ridiculous too.. They should be able to
pass something virtually overnight to stop this. I'd imagine just making
the lawyer that put through the sale financially responsible for the
whole mess might put a stop to it pretty quickly..
---
* SLMR Rob * Does the National Ballet travel by Tu Tu Train?
* Origin: capitolcityonline.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/HTTP (1:2320/105)

Hello Rob!

I actually ran across some info on it since posting this
and it's not quite as easy as it sounds, the 'sellers'
have to do an actual identity theft to pull it off, having
drivers license numbers and Social Insurance numbers and
such, but we know these things still happen fairly
frequently.

Apparently we do not exist unless some flimsy document says so.

I know people who have lost their IDs, and the banks they have
always patronized don't even allow them to access their money
even though the tellers KNOW the person! Apparently the only
way you can prove who you are is with a piece of paper.

They mentioned on the news that it is run most often by
organized crime. Something like 30 homes in Toronto alone
have been subject to this in the past year, mostly
Mortgage fraud, not the sale of the house fraud, which is
much harder to pull off.

Right.. sounds like a bunch of "fake" lawyers are in on the act
and maybe even a banking insider is involved.

A story mentioned that in 4 cases the house was actually
sold, and one couple only found out about it because their
mortgage had been paid off - which would have to be done
before the house could be sold. (They were out of the
country for 4 years with the house rented out.)

Yes.. CBC radio elaborated a bit more about that case too.
Incredible to learn that your own house has been sold
fraudulently like that.

It was mentioned that 'the system' believes the new owners
legally own the property but there's no further info on
what can be done to get it back. It's apparently a little
messier than buying a stolen car..

It's probably the same process to return the property to the
rightful owner but the players (the bank, the lawyers, etc) are
reluctant because a house/property is usually a bigger ticket
item ( 6 $ figures) as opposed to a car (5 $ figures), and
those players don't want to take the losses - although THEY are
the very parties that let it happen in the first place.

Everyone believes something should be done to prevent this
but it's one of those things where it will take time for
the law to catch up with the crime.. and I think That is
ridiculous too.. They should be able to pass something
virtually overnight to stop this. I'd imagine just making
the lawyer that put through the sale financially
responsible for the whole mess might put a stop to it
pretty quickly..

Yes.. I don't see why extra checks and balances can't be
implemented immediately. For starters, if I were the bank or
deed office facilitating the transfer, I'd question the
legitimacy of the lawyers participating and any documents
presented.

Eg. If the fraudsters were of a visible ethnic background, and
the legit owners were something else, then that could be a red-
flag.

I am a victim of a fraudulent property transfer myself, and *I*
wasn't even informed by the deeds office or by the
participating lawyer that it was taking place.
--
../|ug

--- OpenXP 5.0.57
* Origin: Stare into this point intently ->.<- (1:153/757.21)

and it's not quite as easy as it sounds, the 'sellers'

> have to do an actual identity theft to pull it off, having
> drivers license numbers and Social Insurance numbers and
> such, but we know these things still happen fairly
> frequently.

Apparently we do not exist unless some flimsy document says so.

I know people who have lost their IDs, and the banks they have

>always patronized don't even allow them to access their money
>even though the tellers KNOW the person! Apparently the only
>way you can prove who you are is with a piece of paper.

I guess you'd have to define 'lost your I.D.'.. I've never had to produce anything but a Debit card to do whatever I wanted at my bank, but they obviously have my other info for doing more serious things than just accessing my bank accounts. I think the I.D. problem would mainly crop up if you were trying to do something at a bank branch you haven't used before..
That said, someone stealing a house would make sure to use another branch
so that no one would realize you were not who you claimed to be.

Yes.. I don't see why extra checks and balances can't be

>implemented immediately. For starters, if I were the bank or
>deed office facilitating the transfer, I'd question the
>legitimacy of the lawyers participating and any documents
>presented.

It's probably unrealistic to expect everyone who touches the deal to do
their own background checks. If someone comes into a bank with the proper paperwork from a legitimate lawyer they would likely assume any checking
had been done by the lawyer. Meanwhile, even the Honest (?) lawyers get
Title Insurance rather than searching the title beyond checking that the
seller has the right documents identifying them as the owner.. so we are back to Identity Theft to pull it off.

I am a victim of a fraudulent property transfer myself, and *I*

>wasn't even informed by the deeds office or by the
>participating lawyer that it was taking place.

That definitely sucks.. But I suppose if someone with the proper paperwork
was there doing the transaction there would be no reason to contact that person. As mentioned, the couple in Toronto who lost their home to that
only found out because the scammers had to pay off the mortgage to get
a transfer of the deed through and the bank did notify the true owners
that the mortgage had been successfully paid off, too late to stop it.

I think in any major transaction from buying a car to buying a house one
should beware of anyone who insists they have to do it faster than usual.

My father once bought a car where the guy wanted cash immediately on a
really good deal, but he took the time to check things out and found
that the seller was about to leave the country and he still owed a lot
of money on the car.. Dad did buy the car from him, but produced proof
that he'd paid off the bank loan and then gave the seller the balance
left over.

---
* SLMR Rob * ......................................... - Group Photo
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