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  • "Brian Kernigan speaks. 83 and still teaching."

    From Lynn McGuire@3:633/280.2 to All on Tue Sep 2 14:39:00 2025
    "Brian Kernigan speaks. 83 and still teaching."

    "The Rust believers are not going to be happy with the answer to one question."
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEb_YL1K1Qg

    "At one point during the Q&A, his VPN fails. GlobalProtect. No further comment."

    Lynn


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  • From Lynn McGuire@3:633/10 to All on Tue Sep 2 20:34:46 2025
    On 9/1/2025 11:39 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
    "Brian Kernigan speaks. 83 and still teaching."

    "The Rust believers are not going to be happy with the answer to one question."
    -a-a https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEb_YL1K1Qg

    "At one point during the Q&A, his VPN fails. GlobalProtect. No further comment."

    Lynn

    I learned C from the original K&R C book, about 1985 or so. Here is the second edition, the ANSI version.

    https://www.amazon.com/Programming-Language-2nd-Brian-Kernighan/dp/0131103628

    Lynn



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  • From Pierre@3:633/10 to All on Wed Sep 3 22:20:48 2025
    In comp.lang.c Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
    "Brian Kernigan speaks. 83 and still teaching."

    "The Rust believers are not going to be happy with the answer to one question."
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEb_YL1K1Qg

    "At one point during the Q&A, his VPN fails. GlobalProtect. No further comment."

    Lynn


    I liked his reply to the question about the current state of software
    today:

    "A lot of it sucks! Unfortunately, it's all too true."


    Pierre

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  • From Pierre@3:633/10 to All on Thu Sep 4 00:04:26 2025
    In comp.lang.c Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
    On 9/1/2025 11:39 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
    "Brian Kernigan speaks. 83 and still teaching."

    "The Rust believers are not going to be happy with the answer to one
    question."
    -a-a https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEb_YL1K1Qg

    "At one point during the Q&A, his VPN fails. GlobalProtect. No further
    comment."

    Lynn

    I learned C from the original K&R C book, about 1985 or so. Here is the second edition, the ANSI version.

    https://www.amazon.com/Programming-Language-2nd-Brian-Kernighan/dp/0131103628

    Lynn



    I learned C from the second edition of the book that I borrowed from the Harold Cohen Library at the University of Liverpool, about 1993, while studying Biochemistry. I was using Matt Dillon's DICE on my Amiga, and
    then MIPSPro on SGI systems at Uni.

    Pierre

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  • From Bonita Montero@3:633/10 to All on Thu Sep 4 02:10:40 2025
    Am 04.09.2025 um 00:20 schrieb Pierre:
    In comp.lang.c Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
    "Brian Kernigan speaks. 83 and still teaching."

    "The Rust believers are not going to be happy with the answer to one
    question."
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEb_YL1K1Qg

    "At one point during the Q&A, his VPN fails. GlobalProtect. No further
    comment."

    Lynn


    I liked his reply to the question about the current state of software
    today:

    "A lot of it sucks! Unfortunately, it's all too true."

    Yes, and a large part of it because it is written in C.
    Five times the code as in C++ or Rust and the same degree of more bugs.

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  • From scott@3:633/10 to All on Thu Sep 4 00:12:06 2025
    Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> writes:
    Am 04.09.2025 um 00:20 schrieb Pierre:
    In comp.lang.c Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
    "Brian Kernigan speaks. 83 and still teaching."

    "The Rust believers are not going to be happy with the answer to one
    question."
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEb_YL1K1Qg

    "At one point during the Q&A, his VPN fails. GlobalProtect. No further
    comment."

    Lynn


    I liked his reply to the question about the current state of software
    today:

    "A lot of it sucks! Unfortunately, it's all too true."

    Yes, and a large part of it because it is written in C.

    Nonsense.

    It sucks due to design, not implementation.

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  • From Kaz Kylheku@3:633/10 to All on Thu Sep 4 02:30:30 2025
    On 2025-09-04, Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
    Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> writes:
    Am 04.09.2025 um 00:20 schrieb Pierre:
    In comp.lang.c Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
    "Brian Kernigan speaks. 83 and still teaching."

    "The Rust believers are not going to be happy with the answer to one
    question."
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEb_YL1K1Qg

    "At one point during the Q&A, his VPN fails. GlobalProtect. No further >>>> comment."

    Lynn


    I liked his reply to the question about the current state of software
    today:

    "A lot of it sucks! Unfortunately, it's all too true."

    Yes, and a large part of it because it is written in C.

    Nonsense.

    It sucks due to design, not implementation.

    The concepts of "design" and "implementation" are tidy abstractions in the study of software engineering.

    IN the practice of software engineering they are not separable.

    For instance, a development situation may take it for granted that a
    certain tech stack will be used. That the informs some of the content of
    the design.

    Perhaps not the highest levels (e.g. use cases like "user deposits money
    via ATM") but once you get into detail, designs are become thoroughly
    soaked in implementation concepts.
    --
    TXR Programming Language: http://nongnu.org/txr
    Cygnal: Cygwin Native Application Library: http://kylheku.com/cygnal
    Mastodon: @Kazinator@mstdn.ca

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  • From boltar@3:633/10 to All on Thu Sep 4 08:36:37 2025
    On Thu, 4 Sep 2025 02:10:40 +0200
    Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> gabbled:
    Am 04.09.2025 um 00:20 schrieb Pierre:
    In comp.lang.c Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
    "Brian Kernigan speaks. 83 and still teaching."

    "The Rust believers are not going to be happy with the answer to one
    question."
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEb_YL1K1Qg

    "At one point during the Q&A, his VPN fails. GlobalProtect. No further
    comment."

    Lynn


    I liked his reply to the question about the current state of software
    today:

    "A lot of it sucks! Unfortunately, it's all too true."

    Yes, and a large part of it because it is written in C.
    Five times the code as in C++ or Rust and the same degree of more bugs.

    The C++ code will be in the libraries but the amount of code will be more
    or less the same.

    I'd love to hear his opinion of the designed-by-committee syntatic horror that is modern C++.


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  • From Janis Papanagnou@3:633/10 to All on Thu Sep 4 12:40:37 2025
    On 04.09.2025 10:36, boltar@caprica.universe wrote:
    On Thu, 4 Sep 2025 02:10:40 +0200
    Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> gabbled:
    Am 04.09.2025 um 00:20 schrieb Pierre:
    In comp.lang.c Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
    "Brian Kernigan speaks. 83 and still teaching."

    "The Rust believers are not going to be happy with the answer to one
    question."

    His comment on Rust wasn't backed up by much experience, but his
    statement on his personal practical experience was, also not too
    surprising, very interesting to hear.

    I liked his reply to the question about the current state of software
    today:

    "A lot of it sucks! Unfortunately, it's all too true."

    (Everyday experience. *sigh*. Yes.)

    Yes, and a large part of it because it is written in C.
    Five times the code as in C++ or Rust and the same degree of more bugs.

    The C++ code will be in the libraries but the amount of code will be more
    or less the same.

    I'm not sure whether you are referring to the final binary or the
    plain "C" vs. C++ code.

    Since in C++ the higher level code is supported by language and
    powerful libraries it's IME typically terser to write, and easier
    to use and combine. (YMMV)

    With a full blown _complete_ interface implementation (I mean all
    elements for an orthogonal use of an implementation) I typically
    have a lot of code in C++, though. (Code that I typically wouldn't
    have implemented in "C". So it's not directly comparable.)


    I'd love to hear his opinion of the designed-by-committee syntatic
    horror that is modern C++.

    You are probably speaking about the newer C++ standards, and also
    not about the "C" contribution to the "syntactic horror". Right?

    Janis


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  • From boltar@3:633/10 to All on Thu Sep 4 15:57:30 2025
    On Thu, 4 Sep 2025 12:40:37 +0200
    Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> gabbled:
    On 04.09.2025 10:36, boltar@caprica.universe wrote:
    I'd love to hear his opinion of the designed-by-committee syntatic
    horror that is modern C++.

    You are probably speaking about the newer C++ standards, and also
    not about the "C" contribution to the "syntactic horror". Right?

    C's syntax might not be the best, but its relatively simple. C++ syntax is
    a dogs dinner and gets worse everytime the steering committee farts out a
    new version every 3 years with increasingly niche and obscure functionality. Some C++ code now is virtually unparsable by the human eye and a lot of the
    new crap are meta keywords that are compiler directives or hints rather than code that actually does something. eg:

    swappable
    swappable_with .
    destructible .
    constructible_from .
    default_initializable


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  • From jaworski1978@3:633/10 to All on Thu Sep 4 18:33:11 2025
    W dniu 4.09.2025 o-a04:30, Kaz Kylheku pisze:
    I liked his reply to the question about the current state of software
    today:

    "A lot of it sucks! Unfortunately, it's all too true."
    Yes, and a large part of it because it is written in C.
    Nonsense.

    It sucks due to design, not implementation.
    The concepts of "design" and "implementation" are tidy abstractions in the study of software engineering.

    IN the practice of software engineering they are not separable.

    BS! Behind every genius prog. or tool is some brilliant idea. That is
    the first step of design. All engineering art require detailed and aware design. If some body program in other way, then result can be one: piece
    of c* .
    --
    Have a nice day!
    Jacek Marcin Jaworski, Pruszcz Gd., woj. Pomorskie, PLEfc|Efc#, EUEfc-Efc|;
    tel.: +48-609-170-742, najlepiej w godz.: 5:00-5:25 lub 16:00-16:55; <jaworski1978@adres.pl>, gpg: EBFD1A464130993FBBC230FE221740E87CE10580;
    Domowa s. WWW (WYSZUKIWARKI J-a POMIJAJ-a!!!): <https://energokod.pl>;
    Mini Netykieta: <https://energokod.pl/MiniNetykieta.html>; Mailowa Samoobrona: <https://emailselfdefense.fsf.org/pl>.


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  • From Michael S@3:633/10 to All on Fri Sep 5 00:36:46 2025
    On Thu, 4 Sep 2025 18:33:11 +0200
    Efc|Efc#Jacek Marcin JaworskiEfc|Efc# <jaworski1978@adres.pl> wrote:
    W dniu 4.09.2025 o-a04:30, Kaz Kylheku pisze:
    I liked his reply to the question about the current state of
    software today:

    "A lot of it sucks! Unfortunately, it's all too true."
    Yes, and a large part of it because it is written in C.
    Nonsense.

    It sucks due to design, not implementation.
    The concepts of "design" and "implementation" are tidy abstractions
    in the study of software engineering.

    IN the practice of software engineering they are not separable.

    BS! Behind every genius prog. or tool is some brilliant idea. That is
    the first step of design. All engineering art require detailed and
    aware design. If some body program in other way, then result can be
    one: piece of c* .

    Kaz is right.

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  • From Bonita Montero@3:633/10 to All on Thu Sep 4 23:40:11 2025
    Am 04.09.2025 um 10:36 schrieb boltar@caprica.universe:
    On Thu, 4 Sep 2025 02:10:40 +0200
    Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> gabbled:
    Am 04.09.2025 um 00:20 schrieb Pierre:
    In comp.lang.c Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
    "Brian Kernigan speaks. 83 and still teaching."

    "The Rust believers are not going to be happy with the answer to one
    question."
    -a-a-a https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEb_YL1K1Qg

    "At one point during the Q&A, his VPN fails. GlobalProtect. No further >>>> comment."

    Lynn


    I liked his reply to the question about the current state of software
    today:

    "A lot of it sucks!-a Unfortunately, it's all too true."

    Yes, and a large part of it because it is written in C.
    Five times the code as in C++ or Rust and the same degree of more bugs.

    The C++ code will be in the libraries but the amount of code will be more
    or less the same.

    The amount of generated code yes, but the amount of written coce is
    about five times more.

    I'd love to hear his opinion of the designed-by-committee syntatic
    horror that is modern C++.



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  • From Janis Papanagnou@3:633/10 to All on Fri Sep 5 05:42:15 2025
    On 04.09.2025 17:57, boltar@caprica.universe wrote:
    On Thu, 4 Sep 2025 12:40:37 +0200
    Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> gabbled:
    On 04.09.2025 10:36, boltar@caprica.universe wrote:
    I'd love to hear his opinion of the designed-by-committee syntatic
    horror that is modern C++.

    You are probably speaking about the newer C++ standards, and also
    not about the "C" contribution to the "syntactic horror". Right?

    C's syntax might not be the best, but its relatively simple. C++ syntax is
    a dogs dinner and gets worse everytime the steering committee farts out a new version every 3 years with increasingly niche and obscure functionality. Some C++ code now is virtually unparsable by the human eye and a lot of the new crap are meta keywords that are compiler directives or hints rather than code that actually does something. eg:

    swappable
    swappable_with .
    destructible .
    constructible_from .
    default_initializable


    Thanks for clarifying. - I stopped my professional use of C++ with
    this millennium. The last standard that came to my attention was
    something like "C++0x/C++11" (IIRC, with move semantics, and some
    such). While I understand the motivation for introduction of such
    things I already found the syntax, the implications on readability,
    and the complexity a problem back then. I can think that this state
    of language may repel at least the younger programmer's generation
    and foster them turning to other (syntactical cleaner and simpler)
    languages. Programmers that grew up with "C" and C++ might be more
    stressable since they need only accommodate to the language deltas.

    WRT C's contribution I agree that it's comparable simple, but still
    contributes not insignificantly to the "syntax horror". It might be
    more an issue for folks who are also used to non-"C"-like languages.

    Janis


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