"Brian Kernigan speaks. 83 and still teaching."

"The Rust believers are not going to be happy with the answer to one question."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEb_YL1K1Qg

"At one point during the Q&A, his VPN fails. GlobalProtect. No further comment."

Lynn


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On 9/1/2025 11:39 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:

"Brian Kernigan speaks. 83 and still teaching."

"The Rust believers are not going to be happy with the answer to one question."
ÿÿ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEb_YL1K1Qg

"At one point during the Q&A, his VPN fails. GlobalProtect. No further comment."

Lynn

I learned C from the original K&R C book, about 1985 or so. Here is the second edition, the ANSI version.

https://www.amazon.com/Programming-Language-2nd-Brian-Kernighan/dp/0131103628

Lynn



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In comp.lang.c Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:

"Brian Kernigan speaks. 83 and still teaching."

"The Rust believers are not going to be happy with the answer to one question."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEb_YL1K1Qg

"At one point during the Q&A, his VPN fails. GlobalProtect. No further comment."

Lynn

I liked his reply to the question about the current state of software
today:

"A lot of it sucks! Unfortunately, it's all too true."


Pierre

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Am 04.09.2025 um 00:20 schrieb Pierre:

In comp.lang.c Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:

"Brian Kernigan speaks. 83 and still teaching."

"The Rust believers are not going to be happy with the answer to one
question."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEb_YL1K1Qg

"At one point during the Q&A, his VPN fails. GlobalProtect. No further
comment."

Lynn

I liked his reply to the question about the current state of software
today:

"A lot of it sucks! Unfortunately, it's all too true."

Yes, and a large part of it because it is written in C.
Five times the code as in C++ or Rust and the same degree of more bugs.

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On 2025-09-04, Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:

Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> writes:

Am 04.09.2025 um 00:20 schrieb Pierre:

In comp.lang.c Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:

"Brian Kernigan speaks. 83 and still teaching."

"The Rust believers are not going to be happy with the answer to one
question."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEb_YL1K1Qg

"At one point during the Q&A, his VPN fails. GlobalProtect. No further >>>> comment."

Lynn

I liked his reply to the question about the current state of software
today:

"A lot of it sucks! Unfortunately, it's all too true."

Yes, and a large part of it because it is written in C.

Nonsense.

It sucks due to design, not implementation.

The concepts of "design" and "implementation" are tidy abstractions in the study of software engineering.

IN the practice of software engineering they are not separable.

For instance, a development situation may take it for granted that a
certain tech stack will be used. That the informs some of the content of
the design.

Perhaps not the highest levels (e.g. use cases like "user deposits money
via ATM") but once you get into detail, designs are become thoroughly
soaked in implementation concepts.

--
TXR Programming Language: http://nongnu.org/txr
Cygnal: Cygwin Native Application Library: http://kylheku.com/cygnal
Mastodon: @Kazinator@mstdn.ca

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On Thu, 4 Sep 2025 02:10:40 +0200
Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> gabbled:

Am 04.09.2025 um 00:20 schrieb Pierre:

In comp.lang.c Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:

"Brian Kernigan speaks. 83 and still teaching."

"The Rust believers are not going to be happy with the answer to one
question."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEb_YL1K1Qg

"At one point during the Q&A, his VPN fails. GlobalProtect. No further
comment."

Lynn

I liked his reply to the question about the current state of software
today:

"A lot of it sucks! Unfortunately, it's all too true."

Yes, and a large part of it because it is written in C.
Five times the code as in C++ or Rust and the same degree of more bugs.

The C++ code will be in the libraries but the amount of code will be more
or less the same.

I'd love to hear his opinion of the designed-by-committee syntatic horror that is modern C++.


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On 04.09.2025 10:36, boltar@caprica.universe wrote:

On Thu, 4 Sep 2025 02:10:40 +0200
Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> gabbled:

Am 04.09.2025 um 00:20 schrieb Pierre:

In comp.lang.c Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:

"Brian Kernigan speaks. 83 and still teaching."

"The Rust believers are not going to be happy with the answer to one
question."

His comment on Rust wasn't backed up by much experience, but his
statement on his personal practical experience was, also not too
surprising, very interesting to hear.

I liked his reply to the question about the current state of software
today:

"A lot of it sucks! Unfortunately, it's all too true."

(Everyday experience. *sigh*. Yes.)

Yes, and a large part of it because it is written in C.
Five times the code as in C++ or Rust and the same degree of more bugs.

The C++ code will be in the libraries but the amount of code will be more
or less the same.

I'm not sure whether you are referring to the final binary or the
plain "C" vs. C++ code.

Since in C++ the higher level code is supported by language and
powerful libraries it's IME typically terser to write, and easier
to use and combine. (YMMV)

With a full blown _complete_ interface implementation (I mean all
elements for an orthogonal use of an implementation) I typically
have a lot of code in C++, though. (Code that I typically wouldn't
have implemented in "C". So it's not directly comparable.)

I'd love to hear his opinion of the designed-by-committee syntatic
horror that is modern C++.

You are probably speaking about the newer C++ standards, and also
not about the "C" contribution to the "syntactic horror". Right?

Janis


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On Thu, 4 Sep 2025 12:40:37 +0200
Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> gabbled:

On 04.09.2025 10:36, boltar@caprica.universe wrote:

I'd love to hear his opinion of the designed-by-committee syntatic
horror that is modern C++.

You are probably speaking about the newer C++ standards, and also
not about the "C" contribution to the "syntactic horror". Right?

C's syntax might not be the best, but its relatively simple. C++ syntax is
a dogs dinner and gets worse everytime the steering committee farts out a
new version every 3 years with increasingly niche and obscure functionality. Some C++ code now is virtually unparsable by the human eye and a lot of the
new crap are meta keywords that are compiler directives or hints rather than code that actually does something. eg:

swappable
swappable_with
destructible
constructible_from
default_initializable


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W dniu 4.09.2025 oÿ04:30, Kaz Kylheku pisze:

I liked his reply to the question about the current state of software
today:

"A lot of it sucks! Unfortunately, it's all too true."

Yes, and a large part of it because it is written in C.

Nonsense.

It sucks due to design, not implementation.

The concepts of "design" and "implementation" are tidy abstractions in the study of software engineering.

IN the practice of software engineering they are not separable.

BS! Behind every genius prog. or tool is some brilliant idea. That is
the first step of design. All engineering art require detailed and aware design. If some body program in other way, then result can be one: piece
of c* .

--
Have a nice day!
Jacek Marcin Jaworski, Pruszcz Gd., woj. Pomorskie, PL🇵🇱, EU🇪🇺;
tel.: +48-609-170-742, najlepiej w godz.: 5:00-5:25 lub 16:00-16:55; <jaworski1978@adres.pl>, gpg: EBFD1A464130993FBBC230FE221740E87CE10580;
Domowa s. WWW (WYSZUKIWARKI JÄ„ POMIJAJÄ„!!!): <https://energokod.pl>;
Mini Netykieta: <https://energokod.pl/MiniNetykieta.html>; Mailowa Samoobrona: <https://emailselfdefense.fsf.org/pl>.


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On Thu, 4 Sep 2025 18:33:11 +0200
=F0=9F=87=B5=F0=9F=87=B1Jacek Marcin Jaworski=F0=9F=87=B5=F0=9F=87=B1 <jawo= rski1978@adres.pl> wrote:

W dniu 4.09.2025 o=C2=A004:30, Kaz Kylheku pisze:

I liked his reply to the question about the current state of
software today:

"A lot of it sucks! Unfortunately, it's all too true." =20

Yes, and a large part of it because it is written in C. =20

Nonsense.

It sucks due to design, not implementation. =20

The concepts of "design" and "implementation" are tidy abstractions
in the study of software engineering.
=20
IN the practice of software engineering they are not separable. =20

=20
BS! Behind every genius prog. or tool is some brilliant idea. That is=20
the first step of design. All engineering art require detailed and
aware design. If some body program in other way, then result can be
one: piece of c* .
=20

Kaz is right.


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Am 04.09.2025 um 10:36 schrieb boltar@caprica.universe:

On Thu, 4 Sep 2025 02:10:40 +0200
Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> gabbled:

Am 04.09.2025 um 00:20 schrieb Pierre:

In comp.lang.c Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:

"Brian Kernigan speaks. 83 and still teaching."

"The Rust believers are not going to be happy with the answer to one
question."
ÿÿÿ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEb_YL1K1Qg

"At one point during the Q&A, his VPN fails. GlobalProtect. No further >>>> comment."

Lynn

I liked his reply to the question about the current state of software
today:

"A lot of it sucks!ÿ Unfortunately, it's all too true."

Yes, and a large part of it because it is written in C.
Five times the code as in C++ or Rust and the same degree of more bugs.

The C++ code will be in the libraries but the amount of code will be more
or less the same.

The amount of generated code yes, but the amount of written coce is
about five times more.

I'd love to hear his opinion of the designed-by-committee syntatic
horror that is modern C++.

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