• ?Is C++ Dead??

    From Lynn McGuire@3:633/10 to All on Thu Mar 5 15:19:48 2026
    ?Is C++ Dead??
    https://deepengineering.substack.com/p/is-c-dead

    ?According to the January TIOBE Index, C++ is currently the fourth most popular programming language after C and Python. C++ is the main
    programming language used in many critical systems, including hospitals,
    cars, and airplanes. But dare I say it: C++ is prone to errors. And in
    2024, even the U.S. government chipped in. They dropped the bomb: C and
    C++ are not memory-safe programming languages. In 2026, might C++ be
    seeing its last days??
    https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/

    https://bidenwhitehouse.archives.gov/wp-content/uploads/2024/02/Final-ONCD-Technical-Report.pdf

    No, not even close to starting to die. New projects are being started
    in C++ daily.

    Lynn


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.12
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From wij@3:633/10 to All on Fri Mar 6 08:14:47 2026
    On Thu, 2026-03-05 at 15:19 -0600, Lynn McGuire wrote:
    ?Is C++ Dead??

    C++ will be diminishing (dying) as I felt >20 years ago for reasons of itse
    lf.
    ... In all, build your own library, not the c++ std-lib. Don't be surprised

    nothing˙will be lost (etc. portability, efficiency).

    ˙˙˙ https://deepengineering.substack.com/p/is-c-dead

    ?According to the January TIOBE Index, C++ is currently the fourt
    h most
    popular programming language after C and Python. C++ is the main
    programming language used in many critical systems, including hospitals,

    cars, and airplanes. But dare I say it: C++ is prone to errors. And in

    2024, even the U.S. government chipped in. They dropped the bomb: C and

    C++ are not memory-safe programming languages. In 2026, might C++ be
    seeing its last days??
    ˙˙˙ https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/
    ˙

    The fact for me: I rarely encounter 'memory-safe' problems in C++.

    https://bidenwhitehouse.archives.gov/wp-content/uploads/2024/02/Final-ONC
    D-Technical-Report.pdf

    No, not even close to starting to die.˙ New projects are being start
    ed
    in C++ daily.

    Lynn

    ... New programmers would not use C++. Experienced programmers would likely
    choose C++.


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.12
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Mr. Man-wai Chang@3:633/10 to All on Fri Mar 6 12:48:22 2026
    On 3/6/2026 5:19 AM, Lynn McGuire wrote:

    2024, even the U.S. government chipped in. They dropped the bomb: C and
    C++ are not memory-safe programming languages.


    That's why operating systems manage and secure memory. Most operating
    systems are written in C and maybe with C++ attachment.

    In 2026, might C++ be seeing its last days??

    Not in business applications, I suppose. would Java die in 2026? Would
    C# rise to power in 2026? :)

    --
    @~@ Simplicity is Beauty! Remain silent! Drink, Blink, Stretch!
    / v \ May the Force and farces be with you! Live long and prosper!!
    /( _ )\ https://sites.google.com/site/changmw/
    ^ ^ https://github.com/changmw/changmw

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.12
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Mr. Man-wai Chang@3:633/10 to All on Fri Mar 6 12:53:39 2026
    On 3/6/2026 8:14 AM, wij wrote:

    The fact for me: I rarely encounter 'memory-safe' problems in C++.

    ... New programmers would not use C++. Experienced programmers would likely choose C++.

    Everything comes down to programmers that "do no evil"! ;)

    --
    @~@ Simplicity is Beauty! Remain silent! Drink, Blink, Stretch!
    / v \ May the Force and farces be with you! Live long and prosper!!
    /( _ )\ https://sites.google.com/site/changmw/
    ^ ^ https://github.com/changmw/changmw

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.12
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Chris M. Thomasson@3:633/10 to All on Fri Mar 6 13:25:53 2026
    On 3/5/2026 8:48 PM, Mr. Man-wai Chang wrote:
    On 3/6/2026 5:19 AM, Lynn McGuire wrote:

    2024, even the U.S. government chipped in. They dropped the bomb: C and
    C++ are not memory-safe programming languages.


    That's why operating systems manage and secure memory. Most operating systems are written in C and maybe with C++ attachment.

    In 2026, might C++ be seeing its last days??

    Not in business applications, I suppose. would Java die in 2026? Would
    C# rise to power in 2026? :)


    C#? Garbage collected crap? I know how to use it, but I don't really
    like it.

    What about Q#? ;^)

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.12
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Mr. Man-wai Chang@3:633/10 to All on Sat Mar 7 13:15:12 2026
    On 3/7/2026 5:25 AM, Chris M. Thomasson wrote:

    C#? Garbage collected crap? I know how to use it, but I don't really
    like it.
    I suspect many stock trading and quoting systems were written in C for
    speed. Then it's natural for those systems to transition to C++ and C#.
    I dunno that world though. :)

    --
    @~@ Simplicity is Beauty! Remain silent! Drink, Blink, Stretch!
    / v \ May the Force and farces be with you! Live long and prosper!!
    /( _ )\ https://sites.google.com/site/changmw/
    ^ ^ https://github.com/changmw/changmw

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.12
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Michael S@3:633/10 to All on Sat Mar 7 20:03:13 2026
    On Fri, 6 Mar 2026 13:25:53 -0800
    "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> wrote:

    On 3/5/2026 8:48 PM, Mr. Man-wai Chang wrote:
    On 3/6/2026 5:19 AM, Lynn McGuire wrote:

    2024, even the U.S. government chipped in. They dropped the bomb:
    C and C++ are not memory-safe programming languages.


    That's why operating systems manage and secure memory. Most
    operating systems are written in C and maybe with C++ attachment.

    In 2026, might C++ be seeing its last days??

    Not in business applications, I suppose. would Java die in 2026?
    Would C# rise to power in 2026? :)


    C#? Garbage collected crap? I know how to use it, but I don't really
    like it.

    What about Q#? ;^)

    Both Java and C# are garbage-collected languages.
    Garbage-collected language is a right choice for business applications
    in overwhelming majority of cases.
    Is C# better than Java? Probably. But probably not by much.
    I like Go better than either of them, but it does not appear to stand a
    chance in this battle.



    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.12
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Mr. Man-wai Chang@3:633/10 to All on Sun Mar 8 16:26:26 2026
    On 3/8/2026 2:03 AM, Michael S wrote:

    Both Java and C# are garbage-collected languages.
    Garbage-collected language is a right choice for business applications
    in overwhelming majority of cases.
    Is C# better than Java? Probably. But probably not by much.
    I like Go better than either of them, but it does not appear to stand a chance in this battle.
    Coders, developers and programmers need to make a living and they will
    always choose the programming language that actually does the job. They
    are not paid to stay in the irovy towers of the acamdeic world! :)

    --
    @~@ Simplicity is Beauty! Remain silent! Drink, Blink, Stretch!
    / v \ May the Force and farces be with you! Live long and prosper!!
    /( _ )\ https://sites.google.com/site/changmw/
    ^ ^ https://github.com/changmw/changmw

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.12
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From David Brown@3:633/10 to All on Sun Mar 8 11:49:30 2026
    On 08/03/2026 09:26, Mr. Man-wai Chang wrote:
    On 3/8/2026 2:03 AM, Michael S wrote:

    Both Java and C# are garbage-collected languages.
    Garbage-collected language is a right choice for business applications
    in overwhelming majority of cases.
    Is C# better than Java? Probably. But probably not by much.
    I like Go better than either of them, but it does not appear to stand a
    chance in this battle.
    Coders, developers and programmers need to make a living and they will always choose the programming language that actually does the job. They
    are not paid to stay in the irovy towers of the acamdeic world! :)


    Programmers rarely choose their programming language for their day job -
    they use what the job says they should use. They can choose what they
    want for their own coding, and that can influence what job they get, but
    for most programmers, the language they use is what the boss says they
    must use - even if they know they could do a better job in a different language.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.12
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Bonita Montero@3:633/10 to All on Sun Mar 8 16:46:30 2026
    Am 08.03.2026 um 11:49 schrieb David Brown:

    Programmers rarely choose their programming language for
    their day job - they use what the job says they should use. ...

    No, they chose the job with the lanugage they like.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.12
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From David Brown@3:633/10 to All on Sun Mar 8 19:22:43 2026
    On 08/03/2026 16:46, Bonita Montero wrote:
    Am 08.03.2026 um 11:49 schrieb David Brown:

    Programmers rarely choose their programming language for
    their day job - they use what the job says they should use. ...

    No, they chose the job with the lanugage they like.

    Some can do that. Some can also choose the language that their employer
    uses. But most programmers get a job that they can get, and do what the
    job requires - just like most non-programmers.


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.12
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Chris M. Thomasson@3:633/10 to All on Sun Mar 8 14:11:11 2026
    On 3/8/2026 3:49 AM, David Brown wrote:
    On 08/03/2026 09:26, Mr. Man-wai Chang wrote:
    On 3/8/2026 2:03 AM, Michael S wrote:

    Both Java and C# are garbage-collected languages.
    Garbage-collected language is a right choice for business applications
    in overwhelming majority of cases.
    Is C# better than Java? Probably. But probably not by much.
    I like Go better than either of them, but it does not appear to stand a
    chance in this battle.
    Coders, developers and programmers need to make a living and they will
    always choose the programming language that actually does the job.
    They are not paid to stay in the irovy towers of the acamdeic world! :)


    Programmers rarely choose their programming language for their day job - they use what the job says they should use.˙ They can choose what they
    want for their own coding, and that can influence what job they get, but
    for most programmers, the language they use is what the boss says they
    must use - even if they know they could do a better job in a different language.

    Exactly.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.12
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Chris M. Thomasson@3:633/10 to All on Sun Mar 8 14:38:23 2026
    On 3/8/2026 11:22 AM, David Brown wrote:
    On 08/03/2026 16:46, Bonita Montero wrote:
    Am 08.03.2026 um 11:49 schrieb David Brown:

    Programmers rarely choose their programming language for
    their day job - they use what the job says they should use. ...

    No, they chose the job with the lanugage they like.

    Some can do that.˙ Some can also choose the language that their employer uses.˙ But most programmers get a job that they can get, and do what the
    job requires - just like most non-programmers.


    If a boss of mine asks me to code something in C#, I will. But, just
    won't like it all that much. Remember that managed C++ thing from MS?

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.12
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Tristan Wibberley@3:633/10 to All on Sun Mar 8 22:54:54 2026
    On 08/03/2026 08:26, Mr. Man-wai Chang wrote:

    Coders, developers and programmers need to make a living and they will always choose the programming language that actually does the job. They
    are not paid to stay in the irovy towers of the acamdeic world! :)


    Yes, because the universities don't pay you to solve solved problems
    again but slowly. Only fools pay you to do that.

    Developers and Programmers need to develop and program to earn a living,
    so, in receipt of said living, they develop and program.

    It is sad that they cannot allow themselves to receive a living without
    feeling that they developed and programmed in return.

    --
    Tristan Wibberley

    The message body is Copyright (C) 2026 Tristan Wibberley except
    citations and quotations noted. All Rights Reserved except that you may,
    of course, cite it academically giving credit to me, distribute it
    verbatim as part of a usenet system or its archives, and use it to
    promote my greatness and general superiority without misrepresentation
    of my opinions other than my opinion of my greatness and general
    superiority which you _may_ misrepresent. You definitely MAY NOT train
    any production AI system with it but you may train experimental AI that
    will only be used for evaluation of the AI methods it implements.


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.12
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Marcel Mueller@3:633/10 to All on Mon Mar 9 08:27:18 2026
    Am 06.03.26 um 05:48 schrieb Mr. Man-wai Chang:
    On 3/6/2026 5:19 AM, Lynn McGuire wrote:

    2024, even the U.S. government chipped in. They dropped the bomb: C and
    C++ are not memory-safe programming languages.

    That's why operating systems manage and secure memory. Most operating systems are written in C and maybe with C++ attachment.

    Linux recently added Rust to the kernel. I think at long term they will
    prefer Rust.

    In 2026, might C++ be seeing its last days??

    Not in business applications,

    Well, it depends on what you call "last". ;-)
    Due to the existing code base it will survive some decades. But every
    language has its height.

    I suppose. would Java die in 2026?

    The Java license is potential harmful. Oracle may kill OpenJDK by making
    the certification too complex and too expensive.

    Would C# rise to power in 2026? :)

    The C# license is not that restrictive, and C# has become somewhat
    superior to Java regarding features and performance. But both are still
    far behind C++.
    On the other side the larger existing code base will keep Java alive, at
    least for business.

    C++ has become too complex for many programmers. This is an economic disadvantage from the business point of view. So people move to a newer, simpler language with less features. Until it becomes too complex, of
    course. New hardware (to compensate for performance) is always cheaper
    that programmers, who write efficient code.


    Marcel

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.12
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Lynn McGuire@3:633/10 to All on Mon Mar 9 17:36:43 2026
    On 3/9/2026 2:27 AM, Marcel Mueller wrote:
    Am 06.03.26 um 05:48 schrieb Mr. Man-wai Chang:
    On 3/6/2026 5:19 AM, Lynn McGuire wrote:

    2024, even the U.S. government chipped in. They dropped the bomb: C and
    C++ are not memory-safe programming languages.

    That's why operating systems manage and secure memory. Most operating
    systems are written in C and maybe with C++ attachment.

    Linux recently added Rust to the kernel. I think at long term they will prefer Rust.

    In 2026, might C++ be seeing its last days??

    Not in business applications,

    Well, it depends on what you call "last". ;-)
    Due to the existing code base it will survive some decades. But every language has its height.

    I suppose. would Java die in 2026?

    The Java license is potential harmful. Oracle may kill OpenJDK by making
    the certification too complex and too expensive.

    Would C# rise to power in 2026? :)

    The C# license is not that restrictive, and C# has become somewhat
    superior to Java regarding features and performance. But both are still
    far behind C++.
    On the other side the larger existing code base will keep Java alive, at least for business.

    C++ has become too complex for many programmers. This is an economic disadvantage from the business point of view. So people move to a newer, simpler language with less features. Until it becomes too complex, of course. New hardware (to compensate for performance) is always cheaper
    that programmers, who write efficient code.


    Marcel

    If C++ is too complex for a programmer then the programmer is not a good programmer.

    The only exception to that is multiple thread software. That stuff is
    dadgum complicated. But the multiple thread software is not used very
    often in my circles.

    Lynn



    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.12
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Bonita Montero@3:633/10 to All on Tue Mar 10 14:17:23 2026
    Am 08.03.2026 um 22:38 schrieb Chris M. Thomasson:

    If a boss of mine asks me to code something in C#, I will. But, just
    won't like it all that much. Remember that managed C++ thing from MS?

    C# is a great language for business applications. It's more mature
    than Java. Java evolves very slowly and I don't understand why.


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.12
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Tristan Wibberley@3:633/10 to All on Tue Mar 10 13:21:34 2026
    On 09/03/2026 07:27, Marcel Mueller wrote:

    C++ has become too complex for many programmers. This is an economic disadvantage from the business point of view. So people move to a newer, simpler language with less features. Until it becomes too complex, of
    course. New hardware (to compensate for performance) is always cheaper
    that programmers, who write efficient code.


    Not to mention the compiler can achieve greater efficiency from
    constraints. All that dance formalism all over memory is silly.

    C++ has the advantage of an international standard. Rust and programs
    expressed only in Rust might not be permitted in some contexts because
    of that lack but then why not Ada instead of Rust?

    --
    Tristan Wibberley

    The message body is Copyright (C) 2026 Tristan Wibberley except
    citations and quotations noted. All Rights Reserved except that you may,
    of course, cite it academically giving credit to me, distribute it
    verbatim as part of a usenet system or its archives, and use it to
    promote my greatness and general superiority without misrepresentation
    of my opinions other than my opinion of my greatness and general
    superiority which you _may_ misrepresent. You definitely MAY NOT train
    any production AI system with it but you may train experimental AI that
    will only be used for evaluation of the AI methods it implements.


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.12
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Tristan Wibberley@3:633/10 to All on Tue Mar 10 13:27:25 2026
    On 09/03/2026 22:36, Lynn McGuire wrote:

    If C++ is too complex for a programmer then the programmer is not a good programmer.

    It has become way too irregular.

    I guess because so many contracts stipulate any current C++ standard
    that, to get advantages of a different language, the ISO committee was
    fooled into making C++ into a different language with compatibility
    crimping. It would have been better to add a line to the C++ standard
    "Rust is a minor variant of C++-20" so C++-20 programs could include
    object files translated from a rust source file.


    --
    Tristan Wibberley

    The message body is Copyright (C) 2026 Tristan Wibberley except
    citations and quotations noted. All Rights Reserved except that you may,
    of course, cite it academically giving credit to me, distribute it
    verbatim as part of a usenet system or its archives, and use it to
    promote my greatness and general superiority without misrepresentation
    of my opinions other than my opinion of my greatness and general
    superiority which you _may_ misrepresent. You definitely MAY NOT train
    any production AI system with it but you may train experimental AI that
    will only be used for evaluation of the AI methods it implements.


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.12
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Tristan Wibberley@3:633/10 to All on Tue Mar 10 22:47:32 2026
    On 10/03/2026 13:17, Bonita Montero wrote:
    Am 08.03.2026 um 22:38 schrieb Chris M. Thomasson:

    If a boss of mine asks me to code something in C#, I will. But, just
    won't like it all that much. Remember that managed C++ thing from MS?

    C# is a great language for business applications. It's more mature
    than Java. Java evolves very slowly and I don't understand why.


    Perhaps:
    1. because it's used for critical infrastructure where nobody wants
    crazies fighting about who knows the latest newness.
    2. because it was better designed in the first place so useful change
    isn't required as often.

    --
    Tristan Wibberley

    The message body is Copyright (C) 2026 Tristan Wibberley except
    citations and quotations noted. All Rights Reserved except that you may,
    of course, cite it academically giving credit to me, distribute it
    verbatim as part of a usenet system or its archives, and use it to
    promote my greatness and general superiority without misrepresentation
    of my opinions other than my opinion of my greatness and general
    superiority which you _may_ misrepresent. You definitely MAY NOT train
    any production AI system with it but you may train experimental AI that
    will only be used for evaluation of the AI methods it implements.


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.12
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Chris M. Thomasson@3:633/10 to All on Tue Mar 10 17:07:36 2026
    On 3/10/2026 6:17 AM, Bonita Montero wrote:
    Am 08.03.2026 um 22:38 schrieb Chris M. Thomasson:

    If a boss of mine asks me to code something in C#, I will. But, just
    won't like it all that much. Remember that managed C++ thing from MS?

    C# is a great language for business applications. It's more mature
    than Java. Java evolves very slowly and I don't understand why.


    C#, heck what about visual basic? Shit. Last time I used that was over
    26 years ago. VB 6 and Access for a reporting system for home inspectors.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.12
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Tristan Wibberley@3:633/10 to All on Sat Mar 14 23:35:34 2026
    On 12/03/2026 19:46, Niocl s P˘l Caile n de Ghloucester wrote:
    Lynn McGuire <LynnMcGuire5@GMail.com> wrote: |-------------------------------------------------------------------------| |"?Is C++ Dead?? |
    | https://deepengineering.substack.com/p/is-c-dead |
    | | |?[. . .] | |[ . .] C++ is the main | |programming language used in many critical systems, including hospitals, | |cars, and airplanes. [. . .] | |[. . .] | |[. ..]?" | |-------------------------------------------------------------------------|

    Oh dear!
    (S. HTTP://Gloucester.Insomnia247.NL/ fuer Kontaktdaten!)


    Yes it's terrifying.

    There are industry standard restrictions in place, organisation
    restrictions, project restrictions, and requirements from customers
    often list specific segments of code that must be used as a consequence
    of previous failures where a fix was decided was thereafter a must (I
    suppose that's just for liability's sake, it takes more than mere usage
    of a code segment to confer safety consequences on a project's outputs).

    Processes use lots of tools, testing and review methods, it's not just
    coding and job-done. There are literally dozens of studious, expensive
    steps and that's just in automotive, the lowliest of the fields
    quoted-in above. Training and other knowledge-management and
    habit-forming techniques are applicable throughout.

    It's still hair-raising despite that. I worked in automotive software engineering for a time and it gave me fewer hairs to raise and I didn't
    stay long enough to get combed into an automotive software engineer -
    just long enough to recognise the incredible breadth and depth of
    problems, expertise, focus, risk-management, steadfastness, pushback,
    pace, etc... If you meet an engineer in those fields do not be surprised
    that they earn more than you.

    Safe software engineering is almost nothing to do with C++; I suspect
    C++ is used for reasons of historical evolution of assurance combined
    with matters of the employment market rather than any other reasons. I
    feel very few people understand anything of what makes safety-critical
    software engineering safe and it has almost nothing to do with the
    language chosen for the encoding of machine instructions because
    ultimately it's a process of translation of /requirements/ to machine instructions. In fact it's a process of translation of goals and market
    gambles into requirements even before that.

    AI in those fields has unique challenges other than mere high-level
    system control-logic encoding which C++ /does/ /NOT/ lend itself to, I
    doubt Ada does either. Test discipline is very important there and I
    would expect if I went back by now I'd find no low-level coding tools
    used for AI project engineering processes (only for the tools used).



    --
    Tristan Wibberley

    The message body is Copyright (C) 2026 Tristan Wibberley except
    citations and quotations noted. All Rights Reserved except that you may,
    of course, cite it academically giving credit to me, distribute it
    verbatim as part of a usenet system or its archives, and use it to
    promote my greatness and general superiority without misrepresentation
    of my opinions other than my opinion of my greatness and general
    superiority which you _may_ misrepresent. You definitely MAY NOT train
    any production AI system with it but you may train experimental AI that
    will only be used for evaluation of the AI methods it implements.


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.13
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Tristan Wibberley@3:633/10 to All on Sun Mar 15 15:37:59 2026
    On 15/03/2026 13:35, Niocl s P˘l Caile n de Ghloucester wrote:
    In comp.lang.ada Tristan Wibberley <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.Manchester.ac.UK> wrote: |----------------------------------------------------------------------|
    |"[. . .] I worked in automotive software | |engineering for a time and it gave me fewer hairs to raise" | |----------------------------------------------------------------------|

    Dear Doctor Wibberley,

    I'm not a Dr., just a Mr.

    You can call me Tristan on usenet, since all s***slanging forums are necessarily informal.


    What does this mean?

    It refers to "hair-raising" - the effect of an exciting experience - and
    hair loss, the effect of a stressfully exciting experience.



    |----------------------------------------------------------------------|
    |" and I didn't | |stay long enough to get combed into an automotive software engineer - | |just long enough to recognise the incredible breadth and depth of | |problems, expertise, focus, risk-management, steadfastness, pushback, | |pace, etc..." | |----------------------------------------------------------------------|

    I do not work on cars, but perhaps Doctor Wibberley gives cars workers
    too much credit. A car-software programmer who is worryingly ignorant
    of the compiler that he uses (which I used to use) disturbs me. I know
    a dangerous risk taker who works on automotive electronics, who
    falsely professes to be an electronic engineer.

    I encountered C# cars workers who dangerously misbehave.

    I thought lots of people were very professional and knowledgeable. Lots
    of Germans in particular.


    An electronic-engineering lecturer said that BMW or Mercedes
    outsources cars work to him, but that he is too poor to buy a car from
    this manufacturer ...

    I earned enough to buy such (but I didn't buy one because I'm not a
    carfool, I'm a steakfool). The location manager (who was not a chancer)
    had a Mazerati but also he had been in Aerospace before. One of the best engineers (a man of many skills) had old second-hand cars, sometimes
    little runabouts and sometimes coupe's - he does satellite testing work now.


    ... such that it is not as big a problem to him if these
    cars are not safe.

    |----------------------------------------------------------------------| |"Safe software engineering is almost nothing to do with C++;" | |----------------------------------------------------------------------|

    Safe software has nothing to do with C++. Software engineering has
    nothing to do with C++.

    heh, nice one.


    |----------------------------------------------------------------------|
    |" I suspect |
    |C++ is used for reasons of historical evolution of assurance combined | |with matters of the employment market rather than any other reasons." | |----------------------------------------------------------------------|

    C++ is used because managers are anti-engineering chancers.

    That is true. Group leaders in Matrix Management systems sometimes
    exist. I bet they are better.


    C++ is
    used instead of plain C because Bjarne Stroustrup decides to win over
    C hackers by choosing against good
    decisions. Cf. \cite{The_Design_and_Evolution_of_C++}.

    C++ is used over C because /some/ of its features can be easily used to
    reduce plain old boilerplate and spend less time - both of which afford
    better quality work. Some of its expressions are eliminated as I mentioned.


    C is used because 1 of the 1st non-country non-university users of
    computers made C.

    Like I said: history of the programming market. C/C++ is used where
    autosar isn't a good choice.


    Anti-engineering chancers managers choose C++ because many persons
    enroll in a C++ course and few persons enroll in Ada courses.

    Yes. For what ever reason they choose humans to map design and
    requirements to imperative code and the humans that think they know C++
    are readily available.


    These
    managers do not appreciate that engineers instead of bugs makers use
    Ada instead of C++, such that the big supply of C++ hackers is not a
    benefit.

    As I mentioned, it is not the coding that makes things safe, but the
    wider process. I know that there are lots and lots of Germans working studiously and cynically toward excellent components.

    I suspect that once upon a time they used linker+c but boilerplate
    reduction and the gradual obsolescence of linker scripts to control
    memory layout lead to C++ and custom layout tools.


    --
    Tristan Wibberley

    The message body is Copyright (C) 2026 Tristan Wibberley except
    citations and quotations noted. All Rights Reserved except that you may,
    of course, cite it academically giving credit to me, distribute it
    verbatim as part of a usenet system or its archives, and use it to
    promote my greatness and general superiority without misrepresentation
    of my opinions other than my opinion of my greatness and general
    superiority which you _may_ misrepresent. You definitely MAY NOT train
    any production AI system with it but you may train experimental AI that
    will only be used for evaluation of the AI methods it implements.


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.13
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Tristan Wibberley@3:633/10 to All on Sun Mar 15 19:40:56 2026
    On 15/03/2026 19:13, Niocl s P˘l Caile n de Ghloucester wrote:
    Does Lynn McGuire or anyone else disagree that Eric Naggum published:
    "C++ is a language strongly optimized for liars and people who go by guesswork and ignorance."

    Yes, it is optimised for humans. A language optimised for the
    alternative is called an algebra and it is an intermediate
    representation in a constraint language solver.

    --
    Tristan Wibberley

    The message body is Copyright (C) 2026 Tristan Wibberley except
    citations and quotations noted. All Rights Reserved except that you may,
    of course, cite it academically giving credit to me, distribute it
    verbatim as part of a usenet system or its archives, and use it to
    promote my greatness and general superiority without misrepresentation
    of my opinions other than my opinion of my greatness and general
    superiority which you _may_ misrepresent. You definitely MAY NOT train
    any production AI system with it but you may train experimental AI that
    will only be used for evaluation of the AI methods it implements.


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.13
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Lawrence D?Oliveiro@3:633/10 to All on Sun Mar 15 21:15:10 2026
    On Sun, 15 Mar 2026 19:13:11 -0000 (UTC), Niocl s P˘l Caile n de
    Ghloucester wrote:

    Does Lynn McGuire or anyone else disagree that Bjarne Stroustrup
    says "Within C++, there is a much smaller and cleaner language
    struggling to get out."

    ?Just the one, dear??
    -- June Whitfield in ?Absolutely Fabulous?

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.13
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Lawrence D?Oliveiro@3:633/10 to All on Sun Mar 15 22:23:21 2026
    On Sun, 15 Mar 2026 15:37:59 +0000, Tristan Wibberley wrote:

    I suspect that once upon a time they used linker+c but boilerplate
    reduction and the gradual obsolescence of linker scripts to control
    memory layout lead to C++ and custom layout tools.

    Where is there an industrial-strength linker that doesn?t support
    scripts? GNU ld certainly does, and that is heavily used in
    cross-platform and embedded scenarios. I think the GNU tools have
    become dominant in that whole segment.

    Of course you need custom build scripts as well, to get things into
    the right format for a bootloader, or even to build the bootloader.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.13
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Lynn McGuire@3:633/10 to All on Sun Mar 15 17:33:21 2026
    On 3/15/2026 2:13 PM, Niocl s P˘l Caile n de Ghloucester wrote:
    Lynn McGuire <LynnMcGuire5@GMail.com> wrote: |-------------------------------------------------------------------------| |"On 3/9/2026 2:27 AM, Marcel Mueller wrote: | |[. . .] |
    C++ has become too complex for many programmers. [. . .] | [. . .] | [. . .] | [. . .] | [. . .] |
    |
    | Marcel |
    | | |If C++ is too complex for a programmer then the programmer is not a good | |programmer. |
    | | |[. . .] | |[. . .] | |[. . .] |
    | | |Lynn" | |-------------------------------------------------------------------------|

    I joined the Association of C & C++ Users more than twenty-six years
    ago. I do not recall ever seeing Lynn McGuire listed in a membership directory thereof. I also do not recall any ACCU publication by her.

    Does Lynn McGuire or anyone else disagree that Bjarne Stroustrup says
    "Within C++, there is a much smaller and cleaner language struggling
    to get out." Does Lynn McGuire or anyone else disagree that Francis Glassborow publishes similarly?

    Does Lynn McGuire or anyone else disagree that Eric Naggum published:
    that C++'s "unmanageable complexity has spawned more fear-preventing
    tools than any other language, but the solution should have been to
    create and use a language that does not overload the whole goddamn
    human."?

    Does Lynn McGuire or anyone else disagree that Eric Naggum published:
    "I may be biased, but I tend to find a much lower tendency among
    female programmers to be dishonest about their skills, and thus do not
    say they know C++ when they are smart enough to realize that that
    would be a lie for all but perhaps 5 people on this planet."?

    Does Lynn McGuire or anyone else disagree that Eric Naggum published:
    "C++ is a language strongly optimized for liars and people who go by guesswork and ignorance."

    Does Lynn McGuire believe that Bjarne Stroustrup; Francis Glassborow;
    and Eric Naggum are "not [. . .] good programmer"s?
    (S. HTTP://Gloucester.Insomnia247.NL/ fuer Kontaktdaten!)

    Lynn McGuire is a he. 6'1" and bald with a full beard. Running an engineering software company since 1995.

    Member of ASME and AIChE. Graduate of Texas A&M University in 1982 with Mechanical Engineering degree. Licensed Professional Engineer in the
    The Great State of Texas since 1989.

    Commercial Fortran programmer since 1975. Converted to
    Pascal in 1983. Converted to C in 1987. Converted to C++ in 2001.

    Just another engineer writing commercial software.

    Lynn


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.13
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Lynn McGuire@3:633/10 to All on Sun Mar 15 18:15:30 2026
    On 3/15/2026 4:15 PM, Lawrence D?Oliveiro wrote:
    On Sun, 15 Mar 2026 19:13:11 -0000 (UTC), Niocl s P˘l Caile n de
    Ghloucester wrote:

    Does Lynn McGuire or anyone else disagree that Bjarne Stroustrup
    says "Within C++, there is a much smaller and cleaner language
    struggling to get out."

    ?Just the one, dear??
    -- June Whitfield in ?Absolutely Fabulous?

    Nice ! And very true.

    Lynn


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.13
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From George Neuner@3:633/10 to All on Mon Mar 16 10:31:56 2026
    On Sun, 15 Mar 2026 19:13:11 -0000 (UTC), Niocl s P˘l Caile n de
    Ghloucester <thanks-to@Taf.com> wrote:

    Lynn McGuire <LynnMcGuire5@GMail.com> wrote: >|-------------------------------------------------------------------------| >|"On 3/9/2026 2:27 AM, Marcel Mueller wrote: | >|[. . .] | >|> C++ has become too complex for many programmers. [. . .] | >|> [. . .] | >|> [. . .] | >|> [. . .] | >|> [. . .] | >|> | >|> | >|> Marcel |
    | | >|If C++ is too complex for a programmer then the programmer is not a good | >|programmer. |
    | | >|[. . .] | >|[. . .] | >|[. . .] |
    | | >|Lynn" | >|-------------------------------------------------------------------------|

    I joined the Association of C & C++ Users more than twenty-six years
    ago. I do not recall ever seeing Lynn McGuire listed in a membership >directory thereof. I also do not recall any ACCU publication by her.

    Does Lynn McGuire or anyone else disagree that Bjarne Stroustrup says
    "Within C++, there is a much smaller and cleaner language struggling
    to get out." Does Lynn McGuire or anyone else disagree that Francis >Glassborow publishes similarly?

    Does Lynn McGuire or anyone else disagree that Eric Naggum published:
    that C++'s "unmanageable complexity has spawned more fear-preventing
    tools than any other language, but the solution should have been to
    create and use a language that does not overload the whole goddamn
    human."?

    Does Lynn McGuire or anyone else disagree that Eric Naggum published:
    "I may be biased, but I tend to find a much lower tendency among
    female programmers to be dishonest about their skills, and thus do not
    say they know C++ when they are smart enough to realize that that
    would be a lie for all but perhaps 5 people on this planet."?

    Does Lynn McGuire or anyone else disagree that Eric Naggum published:
    "C++ is a language strongly optimized for liars and people who go by >guesswork and ignorance."

    Does Lynn McGuire believe that Bjarne Stroustrup; Francis Glassborow;
    and Eric Naggum are "not [. . .] good programmer"s?
    (S. HTTP://Gloucester.Insomnia247.NL/ fuer Kontaktdaten!)


    If you want to know what Erik Naggum thought, there's an archive of
    his comp.lang.lisp postings at https://xach.com/naggum/articles/.

    Erik definitely had some strong opinions re: C and C++, and he had
    good reasons for most of them. He is sorely missed.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.13
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Tristan Wibberley@3:633/10 to All on Mon Mar 16 15:34:16 2026
    On 15/03/2026 22:23, Lawrence D?Oliveiro wrote:
    On Sun, 15 Mar 2026 15:37:59 +0000, Tristan Wibberley wrote:

    I suspect that once upon a time they used linker+c but boilerplate
    reduction and the gradual obsolescence of linker scripts to control
    memory layout lead to C++ and custom layout tools.

    eh, well, they're were still there internal to the build processes when
    I was working in automotive but they were often machine-translations
    from other sources, even via attributes and toolchain flags (because command-orientation is a common human trait).


    --
    Tristan Wibberley

    The message body is Copyright (C) 2026 Tristan Wibberley except
    citations and quotations noted. All Rights Reserved except that you may,
    of course, cite it academically giving credit to me, distribute it
    verbatim as part of a usenet system or its archives, and use it to
    promote my greatness and general superiority without misrepresentation
    of my opinions other than my opinion of my greatness and general
    superiority which you _may_ misrepresent. You definitely MAY NOT train
    any production AI system with it but you may train experimental AI that
    will only be used for evaluation of the AI methods it implements.


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.13
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Michael S@3:633/10 to All on Mon Mar 16 17:56:56 2026
    On Mon, 16 Mar 2026 10:31:56 -0400
    George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> wrote:

    Does Lynn McGuire believe that Bjarne Stroustrup; Francis Glassborow;
    and Eric Naggum are "not [. . .] good programmer"s?
    (S. HTTP://Gloucester.Insomnia247.NL/ fuer Kontaktdaten!)


    If you want to know what Erik Naggum thought, there's an archive of
    his comp.lang.lisp postings at https://xach.com/naggum/articles/.

    Erik definitely had some strong opinions re: C and C++, and he had
    good reasons for most of them. He is sorely missed.

    I never encountered the name Erik Naggum before that.
    From Wikipedia article it sounds like he was good programmer, not
    necessarily star level, but very competent. And very good troll.



    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.13
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Scott Lurndal@3:633/10 to All on Mon Mar 16 15:58:14 2026
    Tristan Wibberley <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> writes: >On 15/03/2026 22:23, Lawrence D?Oliveiro wrote:
    On Sun, 15 Mar 2026 15:37:59 +0000, Tristan Wibberley wrote:

    I suspect that once upon a time they used linker+c but boilerplate
    reduction and the gradual obsolescence of linker scripts to control
    memory layout lead to C++ and custom layout tools.

    eh, well, they're were still there internal to the build processes when
    I was working in automotive but they were often machine-translations
    from other sources, even via attributes and toolchain flags (because >command-orientation is a common human trait).


    There is still a lot of standalone (sans-OS) code written
    in both C and C++, and linker scripts are far from obsolete.


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.13
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From wij@3:633/10 to All on Tue Mar 17 00:53:34 2026
    On Sun, 2026-03-15 at 17:33 -0500, Lynn McGuire wrote:
    On 3/15/2026 2:13 PM, Niocl s P˘l Caile n de Ghloucester wrote:
    Lynn McGuire <LynnMcGuire5@GMail.com> wrote:
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------|
    "On 3/9/2026 2:27 AM, Marcel Mueller wrote:˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙ |
    [. . .]˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙ |
    C++ has become too complex for many programmers. [. . .]˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙ |
    [. . .]˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙ |
    [. . .]˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙ |
    [. . .]˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙ |
    [. . .]˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙ |
    ˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙ |
    ˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙ |
    Marcel˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙ |
    ˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙ | If C++ is too complex for a programmer then the programmer is not a good |
    programmer.˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙ |
    ˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙ | [. . .]˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙ |
    [. . .]˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙ |
    [. . .]˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙ |
    ˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙ | Lynn"˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙ |
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------|

    I joined the Association of C & C++ Users more than twenty-six years
    ago. I do not recall ever seeing Lynn McGuire listed in a membership directory thereof. I also do not recall any ACCU publication by her.

    Does Lynn McGuire or anyone else disagree that Bjarne Stroustrup says "Within C++, there is a much smaller and cleaner language struggling
    to get out." Does Lynn McGuire or anyone else disagree that Francis Glassborow publishes similarly?

    Does Lynn McGuire or anyone else disagree that Eric Naggum published:
    that C++'s "unmanageable complexity has spawned more fear-preventing
    tools than any other language, but the solution should have been to
    create and use a language that does not overload the whole goddamn
    human."?

    Does Lynn McGuire or anyone else disagree that Eric Naggum published:
    "I may be biased, but I tend to find a much lower tendency among
    female programmers to be dishonest about their skills, and thus do not
    say they know C++ when they are smart enough to realize that that
    would be a lie for all but perhaps 5 people on this planet."?

    Does Lynn McGuire or anyone else disagree that Eric Naggum published:
    "C++ is a language strongly optimized for liars and people who go by guesswork and ignorance."

    Does Lynn McGuire believe that Bjarne Stroustrup; Francis Glassborow;
    and Eric Naggum are "not [. . .] good programmer"s?
    (S. HTTP://Gloucester.Insomnia247.NL/ fuer Kontaktdaten!)

    Lynn McGuire is a he.˙ 6'1" and bald with a full beard.˙ Running an engineering software company since 1995.

    Member of ASME and AIChE.˙ Graduate of Texas A&M University in 1982 with Mechanical Engineering degree.˙ Licensed Professional Engineer in the
    The Great State of Texas since 1989.

    Commercial Fortran programmer since 1975.˙ Converted to
    Pascal in 1983.˙ Converted to C in 1987.˙ Converted to C++ in 2001.
    Try to rewrite (or examine) the idea in CSCall OO concept (reset rules).
    It should make the 'original program' tough and live longer. https://sourceforge.net/projects/cscall/files/MisFiles/ClassGuidelines.txt/download
    Just another engineer writing commercial software.

    Lynn


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.13
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Tristan Wibberley@3:633/10 to All on Tue Mar 17 00:02:53 2026
    On 16/03/2026 15:58, Scott Lurndal wrote:
    Tristan Wibberley <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> writes:
    On 15/03/2026 22:23, Lawrence D?Oliveiro wrote:
    On Sun, 15 Mar 2026 15:37:59 +0000, Tristan Wibberley wrote:

    I suspect that once upon a time they used linker+c but boilerplate
    reduction and the gradual obsolescence of linker scripts to control
    memory layout lead to C++ and custom layout tools.

    eh, well, they're were still there internal to the build processes when
    I was working in automotive but they were often machine-translations
    from other sources, even via attributes and toolchain flags (because
    command-orientation is a common human trait).


    There is still a lot of standalone (sans-OS) code written
    in both C and C++, and linker scripts are far from obsolete.


    "non-hosted" C and C++.

    In general, linker scripts are far from obsolete. In the field (at least
    the growth segment of ADAS), specialisation was obsoleting them
    progressively to the point lots and lots of people had never heard of
    them. They had product-architecture-specific toolchain interfaces.

    --
    Tristan Wibberley

    The message body is Copyright (C) 2026 Tristan Wibberley except
    citations and quotations noted. All Rights Reserved except that you may,
    of course, cite it academically giving credit to me, distribute it
    verbatim as part of a usenet system or its archives, and use it to
    promote my greatness and general superiority without misrepresentation
    of my opinions other than my opinion of my greatness and general
    superiority which you _may_ misrepresent. You definitely MAY NOT train
    any production AI system with it but you may train experimental AI that
    will only be used for evaluation of the AI methods it implements.


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.13
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From George Neuner@3:633/10 to All on Mon Mar 16 23:00:29 2026
    On Mon, 16 Mar 2026 17:06:01 -0000 (UTC), Niocl s P˘l Caile n de
    Ghloucester <thanks-to@Taf.com> wrote:

    In comp.lang.ada George Neuner <gneuner2@Comcast.net> wrote: >|---------------------------------------------------------------------|
    |"If you want to know what Erik Naggum thought, there's an archive of |
    |his comp.lang.lisp postings at https://xach.com/naggum/articles/. "| >|---------------------------------------------------------------------|

    This is another example where George Neuner taught me via another of
    his insights. Thanks! I suspect that HTTPS://Xach.com/naggum/articles
    does not archive all of Naggum's comp.lang.lisp postings which were
    marked with an anti-archiving header.
    (S. HTTP://Gloucester.Insomnia247.NL/ fuer Kontaktdaten!)


    I don't know that the Naggum archive is complete, but I am reasonably
    sure that its time span is correct. I began reading C.L.L in the
    early 90s. My first memory of Erik was mid/late 90s, and he stopped
    posting a couple of years before he passed in 2009.

    Erik really didn't post a whole lot (compared to some others). More
    typically he would make a few long posts, and then you'd hear nothing
    more from him until some new topic caught his attention.


    These are some more extensive C.L.L archives that can provide context
    for Erik's posts. Again, I can't vouch for completeness.

    1986 - 2017 (mbox format files) https://github.com/noend2/comp.lang.lisp-archive

    2003 - 2020 (mbox format file) https://archive.org/details/FULL-USENET-BACKUP-2020-Oct-comp.lang.lisp.202216.mbox.7z

    1986 - 2022 (web UI - no apparent way to search) https://usenetarchives.com/threads.php?id=comp.lang.lisp


    note: C.L.L began in 1986. IMHO there hasn't been much substantive
    discussion in recent years, so the mbox files cover the vast majority
    of everything you'd want to read anyway.

    YMMV.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.13
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)