• "Nobody Wants to Buy The Future: Why Science Fiction Literature is Van

    From Lynn McGuire@3:633/280.2 to All on Wed Mar 27 18:03:52 2024
    Subject: "Nobody Wants to Buy The Future: Why Science Fiction Literature is
    Vanishing"

    "Nobody Wants to Buy The Future: Why Science Fiction Literature is
    Vanishing" by Simon McNeil

    https://www.typebarmagazine.com/2024/03/24/nobody-wants-to-buy-the-future-why-science-fiction-literature-is-vanishing/

    "A recent Washington Post article indicated that only 12% of the reading public were interested in reading science fiction. A perusal of
    bestseller lists for science fiction shows an even more alarming truth:
    the science fiction books that do sell are a shrinkingly small number of reprints, classics and novels that had been adapted into movies."

    Science Fiction is moving into indie. Fantasy is moving into romance.
    Neither is going away.

    Lynn


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  • From D@3:633/280.2 to All on Wed Mar 27 19:58:48 2024
    Subject: Re: "Nobody Wants to Buy The Future: Why Science Fiction Literature
    is Vanishing"



    On Wed, 27 Mar 2024, Lynn McGuire wrote:

    "Nobody Wants to Buy The Future: Why Science Fiction Literature is Vanishing"
    by Simon McNeil

    https://www.typebarmagazine.com/2024/03/24/nobody-wants-to-buy-the-future-why-science-fiction-literature-is-vanishing/

    "A recent Washington Post article indicated that only 12% of the reading public were interested in reading science fiction. A perusal of bestseller lists for science fiction shows an even more alarming truth: the science fiction books that do sell are a shrinkingly small number of reprints, classics and novels that had been adapted into movies."

    Science Fiction is moving into indie. Fantasy is moving into romance. Neither is going away.

    Lynn



    From my limited and subjective perspective, science fiction was always
    niche. Maybe it had its glory years before I was born, but every time I
    visit the physical science fiction bookstore I go to sometimes, it's
    always "nerds" and never a lot of people who look like they're mainstream (except me and a few others who don't fit in in the book store;)).

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  • From James Nicoll@3:633/280.2 to All on Thu Mar 28 00:27:01 2024
    Subject: Re: "Nobody Wants to Buy The Future: Why Science Fiction Literature is
    Vanishing"

    In article <uu0gcq$2mqou$1@dont-email.me>,
    Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
    "Nobody Wants to Buy The Future: Why Science Fiction Literature is >Vanishing" by Simon McNeil

    https://www.typebarmagazine.com/2024/03/24/nobody-wants-to-buy-the-future-why-science-fiction-literature-is-vanishing/

    "A recent Washington Post article indicated that only 12% of the reading >public were interested in reading science fiction.

    20 years ago, fantasy had 4 percent of the market and SF 2 pecent.
    --
    My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
    My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
    My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
    My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

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  • From Dimensional Traveler@3:633/280.2 to All on Thu Mar 28 04:27:54 2024
    Subject: Re: "Nobody Wants to Buy The Future: Why Science Fiction Literature
    is Vanishing"

    On 3/27/2024 6:27 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
    In article <uu0gcq$2mqou$1@dont-email.me>,
    Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
    "Nobody Wants to Buy The Future: Why Science Fiction Literature is
    Vanishing" by Simon McNeil

    https://www.typebarmagazine.com/2024/03/24/nobody-wants-to-buy-the-future-why-science-fiction-literature-is-vanishing/

    "A recent Washington Post article indicated that only 12% of the reading
    public were interested in reading science fiction.

    20 years ago, fantasy had 4 percent of the market and SF 2 pecent.

    "If it bleeds, it leads!" Whenever possible something will be spun has
    a tragedy for the ratings/page-clicks.

    --
    I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
    dirty old man.


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    * Origin: A noiseless patient Spider (3:633/280.2@fidonet)
  • From Lynn McGuire@3:633/280.2 to All on Thu Mar 28 09:57:40 2024
    Subject: Re: "Nobody Wants to Buy The Future: Why Science Fiction Literature
    is Vanishing"

    On 3/27/2024 2:03 AM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
    "Nobody Wants to Buy The Future: Why Science Fiction Literature is Vanishing" by Simon McNeil

    https://www.typebarmagazine.com/2024/03/24/nobody-wants-to-buy-the-future-why-science-fiction-literature-is-vanishing/

    "A recent Washington Post article indicated that only 12% of the reading public were interested in reading science fiction.˙ A perusal of
    bestseller lists for science fiction shows an even more alarming truth:
    the science fiction books that do sell are a shrinkingly small number of reprints, classics and novels that had been adapted into movies."

    Science Fiction is moving into indie.˙ Fantasy is moving into romance. Neither is going away.

    Lynn

    I forgot to mention that I stole this off reddit:
    https://www.reddit.com/r/printSF/comments/1bouw53/comment/kwt7e46/

    Lynn



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  • From John Savard@3:633/280.2 to All on Sun Mar 31 00:21:48 2024
    Subject: Re: "Nobody Wants to Buy The Future: Why Science Fiction Literature is Vanishing"

    On Wed, 27 Mar 2024 13:27:01 -0000 (UTC), jdnicoll@panix.com (James
    Nicoll) wrote:

    In article <uu0gcq$2mqou$1@dont-email.me>,
    Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
    "Nobody Wants to Buy The Future: Why Science Fiction Literature is >>Vanishing" by Simon McNeil
    https://www.typebarmagazine.com/2024/03/24/nobody-wants-to-buy-the-future-why-science-fiction-literature-is-vanishing/

    "A recent Washington Post article indicated that only 12% of the reading >>public were interested in reading science fiction.

    20 years ago, fantasy had 4 percent of the market and SF 2 pecent.

    That doesn't mean things have improved. 12% of the reading public may
    be interested in buying science fiction, but if science fiction books
    are less than 16% of the books they buy, then they would still be 2%
    of the books sold, assuming this 12% buys an average amount of books.

    In any case, 20 years ago is 2004, not 1964, which is where we have
    to go to make science-fiction, as well as America, great again.

    John Savard

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  • From John Savard@3:633/280.2 to All on Sun Mar 31 00:23:38 2024
    Subject: Re: "Nobody Wants to Buy The Future: Why Science Fiction Literature is Vanishing"

    On Wed, 27 Mar 2024 09:58:48 +0100, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:

    From my limited and subjective perspective, science fiction was always >niche.

    Certainly, it was "niche" even in its great glory days of the 1930s to
    the 1960s. But that doesn't mean that it can't become niche even
    compared to that, or even more niche, or however you want to say it.

    John Savard

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  • From John Savard@3:633/280.2 to All on Sun Mar 31 00:38:17 2024
    Subject: Re: "Nobody Wants to Buy The Future: Why Science Fiction Literature is Vanishing"

    On Wed, 27 Mar 2024 02:03:52 -0500, Lynn McGuire
    <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:

    Science Fiction is moving into indie. Fantasy is moving into romance. >Neither is going away.

    Science fiction will never die!

    Or, at least, it's not going to become completely dead any time soon.

    Surely sci-fi in the movies isn't going to disappear; Disney continues
    to find the Star Wars franchise profitable... _despite_ thinning out
    the enthusiasm of the fans by apparently taking commendable efforts to
    improve inclusiveness and representation just a tad too far.

    We may, however, with full justification, lament that science fiction
    is just not nearly what it once was back in the glory days of the
    1930s to the 1960s.

    This can be blamed on many factors. We can start with the rising cost
    of newsprint, and conclude with the availability of the Internet (and
    maybe video games) as a rival distraction - which has also severely
    impacted, say, the model railroading hobby, for example.

    Less often mentioned in popular accounts - but I think discussed every
    now and then here - is simply the changing nature of the real-world
    background.

    In the 1950s, we had the atomic bomb and the first tentative steps to
    space flight.

    Today, Moore's Law and CRISPR are in the spotlight. So if one wishes
    to capture the current imagination... one gets cyberpunk, not classic
    SF. The future we see ahead lends itself less well to a literary genre
    having broad appeal, at least to old fogies, even if cyberpunk is
    appreciated by young people.

    I vaguely remember reading the description of a story where uploading
    lets three people travel inside a soda-pop can size payload vehicle in
    a sublight interstellar craft to an interstellar alien conference...
    and so the classic first-contact and adjacent contacts theme _can_ be
    adapted to today's landscape and made believable.

    John Savard

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  • From John Savard@3:633/280.2 to All on Fri Apr 5 14:04:09 2024
    Subject: Re: "Nobody Wants to Buy The Future: Why Science Fiction Literature is Vanishing"

    On Tue, 02 Apr 2024 10:28:35 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca>
    wrote:

    On Sat, 30 Mar 2024 07:38:17 -0600, John Savard ><quadibloc@servername.invalid> wrote:

    Today, Moore's Law and CRISPR are in the spotlight. So if one wishes
    to capture the current imagination... one gets cyberpunk, not classic
    SF. The future we see ahead lends itself less well to a literary genre >>having broad appeal, at least to old fogies, even if cyberpunk is >>appreciated by young people.

    I dunno - I read and enjoyed Neuromancer (and not just because Gibson
    lives in Vancouver as I do) well before I played the game on the Apple
    II 35 tears agi,

    And most people would consider that one of the early classics of
    Cyberpunk. (I was also reading Heinlein's more 'adult' works around
    the same time)

    Hey, I generally never read horror stories - except I enjoy Lovecraft.
    And I never read mysteries - except for Arthur Conan Doyle's Sherlock
    Holmes.

    So people can enjoy some of the very best cyberpunk even if, in
    general, they don't like the genre much.

    John Savard

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  • From Arkalen@3:633/280.2 to All on Fri Apr 5 22:04:22 2024
    Subject: Re: "Nobody Wants to Buy The Future: Why Science Fiction Literature
    is Vanishing"

    On 27/03/2024 14:27, James Nicoll wrote:
    In article <uu0gcq$2mqou$1@dont-email.me>,
    Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
    "Nobody Wants to Buy The Future: Why Science Fiction Literature is
    Vanishing" by Simon McNeil

    https://www.typebarmagazine.com/2024/03/24/nobody-wants-to-buy-the-future-why-science-fiction-literature-is-vanishing/

    "A recent Washington Post article indicated that only 12% of the reading
    public were interested in reading science fiction.

    20 years ago, fantasy had 4 percent of the market and SF 2 pecent.


    Yes, I think this really raises the question of how much of the reading
    public SHOULD be interested in science fiction. It's a specific genre, I
    can see not wanting it to be looked down upon or for specific insightful
    or important works to be ignored by consumers of other genres entirely,
    but I don't see any reason we should want everyone to be fans of science-fiction. Or fantasy.


    Reading the article though I think it's very interesting. For one thing
    it contrasts things not to 20 years ago but to the 80s, when "science
    fiction novels like Carl Sagan’s Contact and James Kahn’s novelization
    of Return of the Jedi appeared amongst the bestsellers of any given
    year." When I read that I thought "really, Return of the Jedi
    novelization?" but the article does address this as a potential cause:


    "Science fiction literature has always depended on an ecosystem of non-literary media, and the transformation of this media landscape,
    especially how the non-literary media landscape has pivoted to
    adaptation, has had a significant deleterious effect on the success of
    science fiction literature."


    Another thing the article notes that I thought was interesting is that "science-fiction readers" as a population aren't exclusive
    science-fiction readers, they tend to be avid readers in general that crossover a lot with "mystery, historical fiction, adventure and fantasy fiction" (honestly, can't say that not me). (hence the article suggests
    that those readers are simply reading more of other genres atm, as
    opposed to there being fewer "science-fiction readers").


    The main thrust of the article however seems to be around the "Torment
    Nexus" tweet - that basically we're living in something like a
    science-fiction dystopia and that might be turning people off of reading
    more of that, or buying into science-fiction utopias.

    Hence:

    "In this we might see the rise of novel subgenres such as Romantasy as representative of the collapse of both the Adult YA reading market
    (which is in even more dire condition than Science Fiction with the
    survey cited by the Washington Post showing it being read by just 6% of
    adult respondents) and that of Science Fiction. These educated,
    persistent and high-volume readers don’t want predictions of the future.
    The New Wave and the Cyberpunks called that back between the mid-1960s
    and the mid-1980s and we’ve got to live with the atrocious results. They want an escape—and the romantic escapism of romance / fantasy hybrid
    books provides precisely that."


    I can't say that also doesn't match up with some things I'd been
    thinking but I'm still curious how that thesis holds up if we looked at
    the actual numbers in detail as you point out and not just "today vs
    when Contact was a bestseller".

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  • From D@3:633/280.2 to All on Sat Apr 6 01:05:10 2024
    Subject: Re: "Nobody Wants to Buy The Future: Why Science Fiction Literature
    is Vanishing"



    On Thu, 4 Apr 2024, John Savard wrote:

    On Tue, 02 Apr 2024 10:28:35 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca>
    wrote:

    On Sat, 30 Mar 2024 07:38:17 -0600, John Savard
    <quadibloc@servername.invalid> wrote:

    Today, Moore's Law and CRISPR are in the spotlight. So if one wishes
    to capture the current imagination... one gets cyberpunk, not classic
    SF. The future we see ahead lends itself less well to a literary genre
    having broad appeal, at least to old fogies, even if cyberpunk is
    appreciated by young people.

    I dunno - I read and enjoyed Neuromancer (and not just because Gibson
    lives in Vancouver as I do) well before I played the game on the Apple
    II 35 tears agi,

    And most people would consider that one of the early classics of
    Cyberpunk. (I was also reading Heinlein's more 'adult' works around
    the same time)

    Hey, I generally never read horror stories - except I enjoy Lovecraft.
    And I never read mysteries - except for Arthur Conan Doyle's Sherlock
    Holmes.

    You have excellent taste! Lovecraft and Doyle for the win! =)

    So people can enjoy some of the very best cyberpunk even if, in
    general, they don't like the genre much.

    John Savard


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  • From D@3:633/280.2 to All on Mon Apr 8 04:11:07 2024
    Subject: Re: "Nobody Wants to Buy The Future: Why Science Fiction Literature
    is Vanishing"



    On Sun, 7 Apr 2024, The Horny Goat wrote:

    On Thu, 04 Apr 2024 21:04:09 -0600, John Savard <quadibloc@servername.invalid> wrote:

    So people can enjoy some of the very best cyberpunk even if, in
    general, they don't like the genre much.

    Heck I even remember being so impressed reading Enders' Game in the
    original magazine long before Card made a whole series of it.


    I thought Enders game was good, but not great. However! I liked how you
    can read into it (if you like) the power of the blogosphere and media manipulation.

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  • From Cryptoengineer@3:633/280.2 to All on Thu Apr 11 03:26:58 2024
    Subject: Re: "Nobody Wants to Buy The Future: Why Science Fiction Literature
    is Vanishing"

    On 4/7/2024 12:47 PM, The Horny Goat wrote:
    On Thu, 04 Apr 2024 21:04:09 -0600, John Savard <quadibloc@servername.invalid> wrote:

    So people can enjoy some of the very best cyberpunk even if, in
    general, they don't like the genre much.

    Heck I even remember being so impressed reading Enders' Game in the
    original magazine long before Card made a whole series of it.

    TBH, I thought the original novella was much better than the
    book.

    pt

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  • From Joy Beeson@3:633/280.2 to All on Mon Apr 22 11:51:50 2024
    Subject: Re: "Nobody Wants to Buy The Future: Why Science Fiction Literature is Vanishing"

    On Sun, 07 Apr 2024 09:47:06 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca>
    wrote:

    Heck I even remember being so impressed reading Enders' Game in the
    original magazine long before Card made a whole series of it.

    I was blown away when I read "Ender's Game" in the magazine, and
    wanted to clasp young Ender to my ample bosom and tell him the first
    rule of strategy: know what you want.

    But it turned out that Card had put everything he had into it. I've
    very little memory of anything else he wrote -- and, for that matter,
    little of "Ender's Game" itself beyond that I was impressed.

    --
    Joy Beeson
    joy beeson at centurylink dot net
    http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/



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  • From vallor@3:633/280.2 to All on Wed Apr 24 13:42:51 2024
    Subject: Re: "Nobody Wants to Buy The Future: Why Science Fiction Literature
    is Vanishing"

    On Sun, 21 Apr 2024 21:51:50 -0400, Joy Beeson
    <jbeeson@invalid.net.invalid> wrote in <ujgb2jdnh2atc6o0i5u5pg1rrarc9thcn5@4ax.com>:

    On Sun, 07 Apr 2024 09:47:06 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca>
    wrote:

    Heck I even remember being so impressed reading Enders' Game in the
    original magazine long before Card made a whole series of it.

    I was blown away when I read "Ender's Game" in the magazine, and wanted
    to clasp young Ender to my ample bosom and tell him the first rule of strategy: know what you want.

    But it turned out that Card had put everything he had into it. I've
    very little memory of anything else he wrote -- and, for that matter,
    little of "Ender's Game" itself beyond that I was impressed.

    I liked the novel. Haven't seen the movie -- is it worth watching?

    However, we live in "The Future" now, and some ideas Card wrote about
    just don't seem plausible. Such as:

    https://xkcd.com/635/

    --
    -v
    Current reading: finishing up _Citizen of the Galaxy_, another novel
    that looks very different with older eyes.

    --- MBSE BBS v1.0.8.4 (Linux-x86_64)
    * Origin: A noiseless patient Spider (3:633/280.2@fidonet)
  • From Arkalen@3:633/280.2 to All on Wed Apr 24 19:19:02 2024
    Subject: Re: "Nobody Wants to Buy The Future: Why Science Fiction Literature
    is Vanishing"

    On 24/04/2024 05:42, vallor wrote:
    On Sun, 21 Apr 2024 21:51:50 -0400, Joy Beeson
    <jbeeson@invalid.net.invalid> wrote in <ujgb2jdnh2atc6o0i5u5pg1rrarc9thcn5@4ax.com>:

    On Sun, 07 Apr 2024 09:47:06 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca>
    wrote:

    Heck I even remember being so impressed reading Enders' Game in the
    original magazine long before Card made a whole series of it.

    I was blown away when I read "Ender's Game" in the magazine, and wanted
    to clasp young Ender to my ample bosom and tell him the first rule of
    strategy: know what you want.

    But it turned out that Card had put everything he had into it. I've
    very little memory of anything else he wrote -- and, for that matter,
    little of "Ender's Game" itself beyond that I was impressed.

    I liked the novel. Haven't seen the movie -- is it worth watching?

    However, we live in "The Future" now, and some ideas Card wrote about
    just don't seem plausible. Such as:

    https://xkcd.com/635/


    The most heartbreaking part of that comic is how you know the two
    instances of (1) comment are spam


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  • From Paul S Person@3:633/280.2 to All on Thu Apr 25 01:44:10 2024
    Subject: Re: "Nobody Wants to Buy The Future: Why Science Fiction Literature is Vanishing"

    On Wed, 24 Apr 2024 03:42:51 -0000 (UTC), vallor <vallor@cultnix.org>
    wrote:

    On Sun, 21 Apr 2024 21:51:50 -0400, Joy Beeson
    <jbeeson@invalid.net.invalid> wrote in ><ujgb2jdnh2atc6o0i5u5pg1rrarc9thcn5@4ax.com>:

    On Sun, 07 Apr 2024 09:47:06 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca>
    wrote:
    =20
    Heck I even remember being so impressed reading Enders' Game in the
    original magazine long before Card made a whole series of it.
    =20
    I was blown away when I read "Ender's Game" in the magazine, and =
    wanted
    to clasp young Ender to my ample bosom and tell him the first rule of
    strategy: know what you want.
    =20
    But it turned out that Card had put everything he had into it. I've
    very little memory of anything else he wrote -- and, for that matter,
    little of "Ender's Game" itself beyond that I was impressed.

    I liked the novel. Haven't seen the movie -- is it worth watching?

    I liked it a lot.

    But you should know, going in, that the focus is on Ender (his sibs
    appear but their political efforts are left out) and Ender is the same
    age throughout. So it could be said to have been done as a YA movie,
    while the novel is more for adults.

    But it definitely covers the ground and makes the vital points in the
    book. Even if the end is a bit abbreviated.

    However, we live in "The Future" now, and some ideas Card wrote about
    just don't seem plausible. Such as:

    https://xkcd.com/635/
    --=20
    "Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
    Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
    Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

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