On Tue, 3 Jun 2025 10:00:35 +0100, Robert Carnegie
<rja.carnegie@gmail.com> wrote:
On biblical truth, I'll just point out that
we do see the waters of the sea flooding over
land from time to time.
Doesn't that happen on most beaches twice a day?
On Mon, 23 Jun 2025 23:39:44 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca>
wrote:
On Thu, 29 May 2025 09:55:09 +0100, Robert Carnegie
<rja.carnegie@gmail.com> wrote:
Also, as Arthur C. Clarke revealed to us,
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is
indistinguishable from magic." So for instance,
some miracles could be performed with concealed
magnets. Especially if someone doesn't know
that magnets exist.
You mean anybody in the time of the Roman Empire (aka 'the life and
times of Jesus') knew what a magnet was?
According to <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnet#Discovery_and_development>,
knowledge of "loadstones" goes back 2500 years. And Pliny's /Natural
History/ discusses them <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_History_(Pliny)#Mineralogy>
Granted, this was a bit later on (77 to 79 AD). But only a bit.
So I would say it is possible that educated (in the Roman/Greek sense) persons were aware of magnets at the time you designated.
I think most of us as children did all kinds of things with magnets to
impress our friends. My favorite trick was holding a magnet under a
piece of paper to make another magnetic jump into the air (typically
no more than 1 or 2 inches) by means of repulsion.
My favorite magnets were the 3/4" round magnets (by roughly 3/16"
thick) that were suitable for the above types of tricks.
I am wondering whether my flat refrigerator magnets, of which I have
an abundance, are recyclable or not -- that is, if they are magnetic
enough to count.
On 08/07/2025 03:36, The Horny Goat wrote:
On Tue, 3 Jun 2025 10:00:35 +0100, Robert Carnegie
<rja.carnegie@gmail.com> wrote:
=20
On biblical truth, I'll just point out that=20
we do see the waters of the sea flooding over
land from time to time.
Doesn't that happen on most beaches twice a day?
Catching up... I was taking it that that
doesn't count. Though I also was supposing
that the author of Psalm 104 may have not
personally seen the sea.
Here's "The NET Bible" version, I hope not
too much of a quote. Not incidentally, its
scholarly footnotes include an assertion
that verses 7-8 refer to Genesis 1 and not
to the Noah story. <snippage>
On 24/06/2025 17:11, Paul S Person wrote:
On Mon, 23 Jun 2025 23:39:44 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca>
wrote:
On Thu, 29 May 2025 09:55:09 +0100, Robert Carnegie
<rja.carnegie@gmail.com> wrote:
Also, as Arthur C. Clarke revealed to us,
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is
indistinguishable from magic."˙ So for instance,
some miracles could be performed with concealed
magnets.˙ Especially if someone doesn't know
that magnets exist.
You mean anybody in the time of the Roman Empire (aka 'the life and
times of Jesus') knew what a magnet was?
According to
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnet#Discovery_and_development>,
knowledge of "loadstones" goes back 2500 years. And Pliny's /Natural
History/ discusses them
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_History_(Pliny)#Mineralogy>
Granted, this was a bit later on (77 to 79 AD). But only a bit.
So I would say it is possible that educated (in the Roman/Greek sense)
persons were aware of magnets at the time you designated.
I think most of us as children did all kinds of things with magnets to
impress our friends. My favorite trick was holding a magnet under a
piece of paper to make another magnetic jump into the air (typically
no more than 1 or 2 inches) by means of repulsion.
My favorite magnets were the 3/4" round magnets (by roughly 3/16"
thick) that were suitable for the above types of tricks.
I am wondering whether my flat refrigerator magnets, of which I have
an abundance, are recyclable or not -- that is, if they are magnetic
enough to count.
Do you mean to recycle as iron?
<https://magnummagnetics.com/blog/how-are-magnets-made/>
is a document I've just failed to understand
on the subject.
I think the answer is "it depends", but also
that magnets in your recycling waste will cause
trouble, such as sticking to machinery and
jamming it, and if you hypothetically ask a
recycling service whether they accept "x" for
recycling, and thry haven't asked for "x",
then just from caution, the answer will be no.
I think rekatively little heat will remove
magnetism, but the magnetasvarevstill made
or whatever.
And twentieth century magnets probably are
much more powerful than natural ones?
While on this subject, I'll add that glass
rdcycling usually accepts bottles and jars,
but not table glassware, plates, cooking
dishes, or windows.˙ Each may use a different
rdcipe.˙ Where the "Nutella" jar which can be
re-used as a beaker stands, I don't know, but
I'll guess that as a precaution, that also will
be "no".
On 08/07/2025 03:36, The Horny Goat wrote:
On Tue, 3 Jun 2025 10:00:35 +0100, Robert Carnegie
<rja.carnegie@gmail.com> wrote:
On biblical truth, I'll just point out that
we do see the waters of the sea flooding over
land from time to time.
Doesn't that happen on most beaches twice a day?
Catching up...˙ I was taking it that that
doesn't count.˙ Though I also was supposing
that the author of Psalm 104 may have not
personally seen the sea.
Here's "The NET Bible" version, I hope not
too much of a quote.˙ Not incidentally, its
scholarly footnotes include an assertion
that verses 7-8 refer to Genesis 1 and not
to the Noah story.˙ I do interpret verse 9
as God setting a limit on the high tide -
I'd better make clear that I don't believe
in this - which is contradicted if Noah's
flood happens later, and also in 21st century
real life.
I've played with natural lodestones - they weren't
very strong.
Small, strong, neodymium/rare earth magnets are
turning up everywhere these days.
Keep them out of the hands of children. Swallowing
one will generally not be a problem, but if two
are swallowed, they will snap together in different
loops of intestine, and cause necrosis and perforation.
On 7/8/2025 7:35 PM, Robert Carnegie wrote:
I think relatively little heat will remove
magnetism, but the magnets are still made
of whatever.
And twentieth century magnets probably are
much more powerful than natural ones?
I've played with natural lodestones - they weren't
very strong.
Hmmm and I'm scheduled for cataract surgery in two months time. The
surgeon is Jewish so you can grok what I think of THAT "tradition".
(With me it's mostly about zapping "cataract precursors" before they
have a chance to grow to become real cataracts...
Sounds like a medical advance.=20
In my mother's day, she never got cataract surgery because hers
weren't "ripe" enough.
IOW, her doctor decided that she could see well enough. His vision, of >course, was not impaired by her cataracts at all.
Perhaps Lewis;a diety of choice wants all to be eventually returned to
Grace as he understood it. So they suffer in the "Lake of Fire" to be >purified
so that like humans in Purgatory they can eventually enter into Heavenly >bliss.
That said Cromwell wouldn't have defeated the Stuarts with his
Scottish friends.
I think you mean "without".
And it wasn't Cromwell in charge.
And I'm not convinced.
CS Lewis had two versions of Hell: one was a place from which God, in
His mercy, withdrew his presence so that those who would suffer if
subjected to it could avoid it; the other was that everyone went to
the same place, but those not prepared (by the Church) for it would
feel the presence of God as painful.
As usual, he was writing shortly before the end of
the world. But I was asking about a reviewer of
Revelation, who seems to think that "Revelation"
now has happened, and all true Christians are safely
in Heaven with God. I wondered how, in that case,
he got a book published about it down here on Earth.
On Tue, 3 Jun 2025 10:00:35 +0100, Robert Carnegie
<rja.carnegie@gmail.com> wrote:
On biblical truth, I'll just point out that
we do see the waters of the sea flooding over
land from time to time.
Doesn't that happen on most beaches twice a day?
Just curious - what was the reviewer's background? Reason I ask is
that that view doesn't correspond with any of the major Christian
traditions. Yet only Christians would have thought much about the
eternal state of Christians. (And I'm not aware of splinter Christian
groups that teach that - and I have studied a fair bit on this - have
I forgotten one?)
On Tue, 24 Jun 2025 09:34:49 -0700, Paul S Person ><psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
Hmmm and I'm scheduled for cataract surgery in two months time. The >>>surgeon is Jewish so you can grok what I think of THAT "tradition".
(With me it's mostly about zapping "cataract precursors" before they
have a chance to grow to become real cataracts...
Sounds like a medical advance.=3D20
In my mother's day, she never got cataract surgery because hers
weren't "ripe" enough.
IOW, her doctor decided that she could see well enough. His vision, of >>course, was not impaired by her cataracts at all.
Yup - I understand that. Unfortunately in my case he did the left eye
in 2023 and is only getting around to the right eye in August. We had
hoped to get to 20/20 after surgery but am now told that probably
isn't happening. On the other hand I am typing this without my glasses
from a range of about 18" (e.g. typical computer user to monitor
distance)
The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca> wrote:
Just curious - what was the reviewer's background? Reason I ask is
that that view doesn't correspond with any of the major Christian >>traditions. Yet only Christians would have thought much about the
eternal state of Christians. (And I'm not aware of splinter Christian >>groups that teach that - and I have studied a fair bit on this - have
I forgotten one?)
Most Christians don't actually believe in the Rapture at all, although >probably this belief is more popular in America thanks to Hal Lindsey.
Of those churches who do, very few of them hold the belief that the
Rapture has already happened and that we are the remainder who are
left. But I know some churches that split off from the Witnesses do
believe that, and they believe that we are living in the Time of=20 >Tribulation right now.
On Thu, 26 Jun 2025 00:14:05 +0100, Robert Carnegie
<rja.carnegie@gmail.com> wrote:
As usual, he was writing shortly before the end of
the world. But I was asking about a reviewer of
Revelation, who seems to think that "Revelation"
now has happened, and all true Christians are safely
in Heaven with God. I wondered how, in that case,
he got a book published about it down here on Earth.
Just curious - what was the reviewer's background? Reason I ask is
that that view doesn't correspond with any of the major Christian
traditions. Yet only Christians would have thought much about the
eternal state of Christians. (And I'm not aware of splinter Christian
groups that teach that - and I have studied a fair bit on this - have
I forgotten one?)
On Tue, 24 Jun 2025 11:11:17 -0700, Bobbie Sellers ><bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> wrote:Heavenly=20
Perhaps Lewis;a diety of choice wants all to be eventually returned to >>Grace as he understood it. So they suffer in the "Lake of Fire" to be=20 >>purified
so that like humans in Purgatory they can eventually enter into =
bliss.
Catch is Purgatory is a Catholic doctrine not found in other Christian >traditions. Thus for non-Catholics one must not pray FOR the dead but
rather it's considered VERY appropriate to give thanks to God for
their life. In my case there's a park close to my home with a lookout
my lady loved - so I give thanks for milady there usually when walking
the dog.
One of the commentaries (a modernist one, IIRC) actually asserted
that, when the Seven Churches read the book, they believed the results
of the various seals, trumpets, and bowls were something God Himself
was sending them right then. Most commentators, of course, believe
these are more generally applicable.
He never did get around to explaining what they thought the New
Jerusalem represented.=20
On Sun, 20 Jul 2025 08:27:09 -0700, Paul S Person ><psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
One of the commentaries (a modernist one, IIRC) actually asserted
that, when the Seven Churches read the book, they believed the results
of the various seals, trumpets, and bowls were something God Himself
was sending them right then. Most commentators, of course, believe
these are more generally applicable.
He never did get around to explaining what they thought the New
Jerusalem represented.=20
Any idea which commentator said that? Because I've never heard any
such claim of the book of Revelation was intended to come about
immediately.
On Sun, 20 Jul 2025 08:27:09 -0700, Paul S Person ><psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
One of the commentaries (a modernist one, IIRC) actually asserted
that, when the Seven Churches read the book, they believed the results
of the various seals, trumpets, and bowls were something God Himself
was sending them right then. Most commentators, of course, believe
these are more generally applicable.
He never did get around to explaining what they thought the New
Jerusalem represented.=3D20
Any idea which commentator said that? Because I've never heard any
such claim of the book of Revelation was intended to come about
immediately.
On Mon, 21 Jul 2025 20:00:40 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca>
wrote:
On Sun, 20 Jul 2025 08:27:09 -0700, Paul S Person
<psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
One of the commentaries (a modernist one, IIRC) actually asserted
that, when the Seven Churches read the book, they believed the results
of the various seals, trumpets, and bowls were something God Himself
was sending them right then. Most commentators, of course, believe
these are more generally applicable.
He never did get around to explaining what they thought the New
Jerusalem represented.=20
Any idea which commentator said that? Because I've never heard any
such claim of the book of Revelation was intended to come about
immediately.
Sadly, even digging through the box containing them helped.
I /think/ this is the same as the one who, having heard/read that the
Romans had "censors" [1], decided that John wrote in imaginative
language to get his message past them.
[1] They had exactly two Censors (it was one of the public offices,
like Consul), but they did not censor letters. They censored public
behavior to make sure it did not get out of hand. IIRC.
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
On Wed, 9 Jul 2025 00:35:21 +0100, Robert Carnegie
<rja.carnegie@gmail.com> wrote:
Not necessarily the same alternate reality occupied by MAGA and the >>alt-right, of course. Or the left wing-nuts who think supporting Hamas
They support the Palestian people, not the Hamas terrorists[*].
One can certainly disapprove of Israeli actions in the middle
east without being anti-semitic (which is defined as 'hatred of jews').
[*] What would -you- do if some group of foriegn countries gave
Seattle to the Native Americans and forcibly moved you and the
other non-native residents to Hanford? Red Dawn?
On Thu, 31 Jul 2025 19:08:05 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
On Wed, 9 Jul 2025 00:35:21 +0100, Robert Carnegie >>><rja.carnegie@gmail.com> wrote:
Not necessarily the same alternate reality occupied by MAGA and the >>>alt-right, of course. Or the left wing-nuts who think supporting Hamas
They support the Palestian people, not the Hamas terrorists[*].
I wish that were the case. But their words and actions suggest
otherwise.
And why not? The Gazans /themselves/ support Hamas. They cheer each
Hamas "victory". And hate the Israelis for daring to respond.
One can certainly disapprove of Israeli actions in the middle
east without being anti-semitic (which is defined as 'hatred of jews').
Indeed one can.=20
But not by chanting "from the river to the sea".
[*] What would -you- do if some group of foriegn countries gave
Seattle to the Native Americans and forcibly moved you and the
other non-native residents to Hanford? Red Dawn?
Sounds like the nonsense Serbia was putting out when trying to subdue
Kosovo. Has Serbian koolaid reached your area?
I'm not sure how the First Peoples came into this. I would be very
surprised if you believed that they are the Ten Lost Tribes.
But thanks for implicitly admitting that Palestine (all of it, both
sides of the river) was once subject to Israelite rule.=20
On Thu, 31 Jul 2025 19:08:05 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
On Wed, 9 Jul 2025 00:35:21 +0100, Robert Carnegie
<rja.carnegie@gmail.com> wrote:
Not necessarily the same alternate reality occupied by MAGA and the
alt-right, of course. Or the left wing-nuts who think supporting Hamas
They support the Palestian people, not the Hamas terrorists[*].
I wish that were the case. But their words and actions suggest
otherwise.
And why not? The Gazans /themselves/ support Hamas. They cheer each
Hamas "victory". And hate the Israelis for daring to respond.
One can certainly disapprove of Israeli actions in the middle
east without being anti-semitic (which is defined as 'hatred of jews').
Indeed one can.
But not by chanting "from the river to the sea".
[*] What would -you- do if some group of foriegn countries gave
Seattle to the Native Americans and forcibly moved you and the
other non-native residents to Hanford? Red Dawn?
Sounds like the nonsense Serbia was putting out when trying to subdue
Kosovo. Has Serbian koolaid reached your area?
I'm not sure how the First Peoples came into this. I would be very
surprised if you believed that they are the Ten Lost Tribes.
But thanks for implicitly admitting that Palestine (all of it, both
sides of the river) was once subject to Israelite rule.
On Thu, 31 Jul 2025 19:08:05 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
On Wed, 9 Jul 2025 00:35:21 +0100, Robert Carnegie
<rja.carnegie@gmail.com> wrote:
Not necessarily the same alternate reality occupied by MAGA and the
alt-right, of course. Or the left wing-nuts who think supporting Hamas
They support the Palestian people, not the Hamas terrorists[*].
I wish that were the case. But their words and actions suggest
otherwise.
And why not? The Gazans /themselves/ support Hamas.
Hamas "victory". And hate the Israelis for daring to respond.
But thanks for implicitly admitting that Palestine (all of it, both
sides of the river) was once subject to Israelite rule.
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
On Wed, 9 Jul 2025 00:35:21 +0100, Robert Carnegie
<rja.carnegie@gmail.com> wrote:
Not necessarily the same alternate reality occupied by MAGA and the >>alt-right, of course. Or the left wing-nuts who think supporting Hamas
They support the Palestian people, not the Hamas terrorists[*].
One can certainly disapprove of Israeli actions in the middle
east without being anti-semitic (which is defined as 'hatred of jews').
[*] What would -you- do if some group of foriegn countries gave
Seattle to the Native Americans and forcibly moved you and the
other non-native residents to Hanford? Red Dawn?
Some Gazans may, indeed support Hamas. You'll need to support
your assertion that "all" Gazans do.
And why not? The Gazans /themselves/ support Hamas. They cheer each
Hamas "victory". And hate the Israelis for daring to respond.
One can certainly disapprove of Israeli actions in the middle
east without being anti-semitic (which is defined as 'hatred of jews').
Indeed one can.
But not by chanting "from the river to the sea".
On Fri, 01 Aug 2025 15:29:52 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:
Some Gazans may, indeed support Hamas. You'll need to support
your assertion that "all" Gazans do.
Obviously ALL Gazans aren't going to do anything but the whole reason
for the current angst is that when it comes to food aid to Gaza there
are two groups: (1) the UNRRA/UN group which delivers their food aid
to HAMAS who then sells it to Gazans (it's claimed at inflated prices
which I can't verify) but uses the proceeds to pay their troops etc
for what was SUPPOSED to (by donors) to be for FREE distribution to
Gazans, and the pro-Israeli group which refuses to deal with HAMAS and refuses to sell anything - it's strictly given away.
The problem is NOT lack of food - the Israelis say they are currently delivering to Gaza roughly twice what they gave before 7 Oct 2023 -
but rather distribution.
And the fact that HAMAS is selling food that is supposed to be freely
given is utterly shameful.
Bottom line is why is Israel giving ANYTHING? In WW2 America, Britain
and the other Allied countries were very generous to Germans but NOT
until after the Germans had surrendered. HAMAS is still fighting and
holding hostages so why is Israel giving them anything? Gaza can have
peace any time HAMAS wants it - thus far they DON'T - and it's NOT
"genocide" for the Israelis to withhold food aid before there's a
ceasefire. It seems to me all the Israelis giving them food now is
extending the war not shortening it.
On 8/1/25 08:20, Paul S Person wrote:
But thanks for implicitly admitting that Palestine (all of it, both
sides of the river) was once subject to Israelite rule.
So long ago that we might count it as mythical if not for
other sources. So we the western world sent them back to Israel
disregarding the fact theat for about 2000 years it had been in
other hands.
That was an error.
If we recognixe the Native Americans as overall owners
of the North American continent we would have to pay rent
to them as our landlords which might be just but inconvenient.
Worse they might want us to get rid of our dubious
improvements to their property and that would be very
inconvenient. We are already taking down dams in the
North-West to restore the free flow of rivers and lesser
streams.
Inconvenience is the true meaning of the word
translated as "Sin" but for our convenience we have
polluted the world with fossil fuel use. In a few more
years we will see the outcome of that inconvenience.
Obviously ALL Gazans aren't going to do anything but the whole reason
for the current angst is that when it comes to food aid to Gaza there
are two groups: (1) the UNRRA/UN group which delivers their food aid
to HAMAS who then sells it to Gazans (it's claimed at inflated prices
which I can't verify) but uses the proceeds to pay their troops etc
for what was SUPPOSED to (by donors) to be for FREE distribution to
Gazans, and the pro-Israeli group which refuses to deal with HAMAS and >refuses to sell anything - it's strictly given away.
The problem is NOT lack of food - the Israelis say they are currently >delivering to Gaza roughly twice what they gave before 7 Oct 2023 -
but rather distribution.
And the fact that HAMAS is selling food that is supposed to be freely
given is utterly shameful.
Bottom line is why is Israel giving ANYTHING? In WW2 America, Britain
and the other Allied countries were very generous to Germans but NOT
until after the Germans had surrendered. HAMAS is still fighting and
holding hostages so why is Israel giving them anything? Gaza can have
peace any time HAMAS wants it - thus far they DON'T - and it's NOT
"genocide" for the Israelis to withhold food aid before there's a
ceasefire. It seems to me all the Israelis giving them food now is
extending the war not shortening it.
On Fri, 1 Aug 2025 09:33:01 -0700, Bobbie Sellers ><bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> wrote:
On 8/1/25 08:20, Paul S Person wrote:
<snippo>
But thanks for implicitly admitting that Palestine (all of it, both
sides of the river) was once subject to Israelite rule.
So long ago that we might count it as mythical if not for
other sources. So we the western world sent them back to Israel >>disregarding the fact theat for about 2000 years it had been in
other hands.
That was an error.
You can thank the anti-Semites for that. A large part of it was guilt
over the Holocaust.
If we recognixe the Native Americans as overall owners
of the North American continent we would have to pay rent
to them as our landlords which might be just but inconvenient.
Worse they might want us to get rid of our dubious
improvements to their property and that would be very
inconvenient. We are already taking down dams in the
North-West to restore the free flow of rivers and lesser
streams.
Restore them so the salmon can breed.
And it still is important economically. It is possible to accomodate a >cultural desire and protect an economically important industry at the
same time.
Indeed, article after article (maybe two or three a year, it isn't as
it if were a steady thing) in /Science News/ explores how local
involvement is key to ecological success. In at least some cases,
tourism is as much at stake as the plants/animals being protected.
Inconvenience is the true meaning of the word
translated as "Sin" but for our convenience we have
polluted the world with fossil fuel use. In a few more
years we will see the outcome of that inconvenience.
It's been a while since I reached this conclusion (which is,
therefore, IMHO), but my take on the Greek word (hamartia) is more
like "missing the mark" -- which Katniss did with her first shot in
her private session in /The Hunger Games/ (guess what movie I saw a
few nights ago).
Other ways of putting "missing the mark" would be "failing to meet >expectations" or "not coming up to standards".
On Fri, 1 Aug 2025 22:57:44 -0700, Bobbie Sellers ><bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> wrote:Genocide
Palestinians in Gaza are not necessarily supporting HAMAS but
are the victims of that Terror cult. The Israels need to stop dropping >>bombs on schools, hospital and churches. If they think HAMAS is
hiding somewhere they need to got there with guns and kill them >>selectively. Not randomly murdering anyone who gets in the way
of the IDF. Even Israeli intellectuals believe that effectively =
is being done in Gaza. As for food the children are dying from lackWhich REALLY makes me wonder since the Israelis say they've been
of Food, hospitals are unable to do their good work without fuel and
people trying to get food at distribution points are been terrorized
by the private security hired to distribute the food.
=09
sending the equivalent of 3000 calories/day for every man woman and
child in Gaza and that they are well aware that that's just what
THEY'RE sending and does not include those sent by the UN or other
agencies.
Saw a Youtube earlier this week involving a British military officer
who has served just about everywhere appalling in the last 20 years
who said the problem is clearly distribution within Gaza NOT the
amount of food aid going to Gaza. What the kicker seems to be is that >everything going via the UN goes via UNRRA where 95% of the food goes
to HAMAS warehouses - where HAMAS sells the food at inflated prices to >civilians and uses the proceeds to fund HAMAS activities and that
HAMAS has several large warehouses full of "food aid" which is
SUPPOSED to be distributed gratis not sold to civilians.
I am not willing to contribute financially to HAMAS so I am not
willing to have my government contribute to HAMAS via UNRRA.=20
That view will change if and when HAMAS starts distributing gratis - I
am NOT willing to make a financial contribution to HAMAS under any >circumstances.
On Sat, 02 Aug 2025 09:05:13 -0700, Paul S Person ><psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
On Fri, 1 Aug 2025 09:33:01 -0700, Bobbie Sellers >><bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> wrote:
On 8/1/25 08:20, Paul S Person wrote:
<snippo>
But thanks for implicitly admitting that Palestine (all of it, both
sides of the river) was once subject to Israelite rule.
So long ago that we might count it as mythical if not for
other sources. So we the western world sent them back to Israel >>>disregarding the fact theat for about 2000 years it had been in
other hands.
That was an error.
You can thank the anti-Semites for that. A large part of it was guilt
over the Holocaust.
If we recognixe the Native Americans as overall owners
of the North American continent we would have to pay rent
to them as our landlords which might be just but inconvenient.
Worse they might want us to get rid of our dubious
improvements to their property and that would be very
inconvenient. We are already taking down dams in the
North-West to restore the free flow of rivers and lesser
streams.
Restore them so the salmon can breed.
British Columbia (Canada) has been building salmon hatcheries for 50+
years. (Which given BC has 90+% of Canadian salmon means MOST salmon
streams)
I am absolutely opposed to giving aboriginal peoples veto power on
dams and production of hydroelectricity. (Which is British Columbia's
MAIN source of electricity - for those unfamiliar BC is pretty much
all of Canada west of the Rockies)
And it still is important economically. It is possible to accomodate a >>cultural desire and protect an economically important industry at the
same time.
Only if the federal (or possibly the provincial) government retains
the final say.
Indeed, article after article (maybe two or three a year, it isn't as
it if were a steady thing) in /Science News/ explores how local
involvement is key to ecological success. In at least some cases,
tourism is as much at stake as the plants/animals being protected.
Again - we're talking about the difference between input and veto
power. There's a huge difference and it's an important difference.
--=20Inconvenience is the true meaning of the word
translated as "Sin" but for our convenience we have
polluted the world with fossil fuel use. In a few more
years we will see the outcome of that inconvenience.
It's been a while since I reached this conclusion (which is,
therefore, IMHO), but my take on the Greek word (hamartia) is more
like "missing the mark" -- which Katniss did with her first shot in
her private session in /The Hunger Games/ (guess what movie I saw a
few nights ago).=20
Other ways of putting "missing the mark" would be "failing to meet >>expectations" or "not coming up to standards".
˙˙˙˙Palestinians in Gaza are not necessarily supporting HAMAS but
are the victims of that Terror cult. The Israels need to stop dropping
bombs on schools, hospital and churches.˙ If they think HAMAS is
hiding somewhere they need to got there with guns and kill them
selectively. Not randomly murdering anyone who gets in the way
of the IDF.˙ Even Israeli intellectuals believe that effectively Genocide
is being done in Gaza.˙ As for food the children are dying from lack
of Food, hospitals are unable to do their good work without fuel and
people trying to get food at distribution points are been terrorized
by the private security hired to distribute the food.
On Fri, 1 Aug 2025 22:57:44 -0700, Bobbie Sellers ><bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> wrote:
Palestinians in Gaza are not necessarily supporting HAMAS butWhich REALLY makes me wonder since the Israelis say they've been
are the victims of that Terror cult. The Israels need to stop dropping >>bombs on schools, hospital and churches. If they think HAMAS is
hiding somewhere they need to got there with guns and kill them >>selectively. Not randomly murdering anyone who gets in the way
of the IDF. Even Israeli intellectuals believe that effectively Genocide >>is being done in Gaza. As for food the children are dying from lack
of Food, hospitals are unable to do their good work without fuel and
people trying to get food at distribution points are been terrorized
by the private security hired to distribute the food.
sending the equivalent of 3000 calories/day for every man woman and
child in Gaza and that they are well aware that that's just what
THEY'RE sending and does not include those sent by the UN or other
agencies.
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
And why not? The Gazans /themselves/ support Hamas. They cheer each
Hamas "victory". And hate the Israelis for daring to respond.
I don't think so, no. I think the people on both sides want peace and the governments on both sides want war. This sort of thing never goes well.
You do hear Palestinians talking about how terrible Israel is but mostly
they just want their land back.
One can certainly disapprove of Israeli actions in the middle
east without being anti-semitic (which is defined as 'hatred of jews').
Indeed one can.
But not by chanting "from the river to the sea".
You know that started out as an Israeli slogan, right?
On 8/1/25 13:03, The Horny Goat wrote:
On Fri, 01 Aug 2025 15:29:52 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:
Some Gazans may, indeed support Hamas.˙ You'll need to support
your assertion that "all" Gazans do.
Obviously ALL Gazans aren't going to do anything but the whole reason
for the current angst is that when it comes to food aid to Gaza there
are two groups: (1) the UNRRA/UN group which delivers their food aid
to HAMAS who then sells it to Gazans (it's claimed at inflated prices
which I can't verify) but uses the proceeds to pay their troops etc
for what was SUPPOSED to (by donors) to be for FREE distribution to
Gazans, and the pro-Israeli group which refuses to deal with HAMAS and
refuses to sell anything - it's strictly given away.
The problem is NOT lack of food - the Israelis say they are currently
delivering to Gaza roughly twice what they gave before 7 Oct 2023 -
but rather distribution.
And the fact that HAMAS is selling food that is supposed to be freely
given is utterly shameful.
Bottom line is why is Israel giving ANYTHING? In WW2 America, Britain
and the other Allied countries were very generous to Germans but NOT
until after the Germans had surrendered. HAMAS is still fighting and
holding hostages so why is Israel giving them anything? Gaza can have
peace any time HAMAS wants it - thus far they DON'T - and it's NOT
"genocide" for the Israelis to withhold food aid before there's a
ceasefire. It seems to me all the Israelis giving them food now is
extending the war not shortening it.
˙˙˙˙Palestinians in Gaza are not necessarily supporting HAMAS but
are the victims of that Terror cult. The Israels need to stop dropping
bombs on schools, hospital and churches.˙ If they think HAMAS is
hiding somewhere they need to got there with guns and kill them
selectively. Not randomly murdering anyone who gets in the way
of the IDF.˙ Even Israeli intellectuals believe that effectively Genocide
is being done in Gaza.˙ As for food the children are dying from lack
of Food, hospitals are unable to do their good work without fuel and
people trying to get food at distribution points are been terrorized
by the private security hired to distribute the food.
˙˙˙˙
˙˙˙˙Does not matter why Israel is doing anything but too many
children have died already and Netanyahu is only demonstrating
that Jewish Authoritarian governments can be as bad as NAZI
regimes.˙ For every child that dies and leaves grieving relatives
there will be recruits to HAMAS-like organizations dedicated to
the revenge for this Israeli treatment of Palestinians.
˙˙˙˙Of course this is just my opinion based on facts I have
read about.
˙˙˙˙bliss
This is pretty much what I have a problem with. The IDF seems to have
decided that if they think a building *might* be being used by Hamas,
the solution is to level it with missiles, bombs, and artillery,
regardless of the civilians inside.
Going in and fighting room to room would certainly cost more IDF
casualties, but greatly lower civilian deaths, and damage to
infrastructure.
To me, it looks like the Hamas attacks are being used by
Netanyahu as a pretext to level all of Gaza to the ground,
and make it uninhabitable, so the Palestinians move to some
other country. It looks as if he want all of Israel to be
free of Palestinians.
On 8/1/2025 8:10 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:the
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
=20
And why not? The Gazans /themselves/ support Hamas. They cheer each
Hamas "victory". And hate the Israelis for daring to respond.
I don't think so, no. I think the people on both sides want peace and=
well.governments on both sides want war. This sort of thing never goes =
mostly=20
You do hear Palestinians talking about how terrible Israel is but =
jews').they just want their land back.
=20
One can certainly disapprove of Israeli actions in the middle
east without being anti-semitic (which is defined as 'hatred of =
=20
Indeed one can.
But not by chanting "from the river to the sea".
You know that started out as an Israeli slogan, right?
The original is a lot more expansive:
Deuteronomy 11:24
"Every place where you set your foot will be yours: Your territory will >extend from the desert to Lebanon, and from the Euphrates River to the >Mediterranean Sea."
On 8/1/25 13:03, The Horny Goat wrote:
On Fri, 01 Aug 2025 15:29:52 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:
Some Gazans may, indeed support Hamas.˙ You'll need to support
your assertion that "all" Gazans do.
Obviously ALL Gazans aren't going to do anything but the whole reason
for the current angst is that when it comes to food aid to Gaza there
are two groups: (1) the UNRRA/UN group which delivers their food aid
to HAMAS who then sells it to Gazans (it's claimed at inflated prices
which I can't verify) but uses the proceeds to pay their troops etc
for what was SUPPOSED to (by donors) to be for FREE distribution to
Gazans, and the pro-Israeli group which refuses to deal with HAMAS and
refuses to sell anything - it's strictly given away.
The problem is NOT lack of food - the Israelis say they are currently
delivering to Gaza roughly twice what they gave before 7 Oct 2023 -
but rather distribution.
And the fact that HAMAS is selling food that is supposed to be freely
given is utterly shameful.
˙˙˙˙Palestinians in Gaza are not necessarily supporting HAMAS but
are the victims of that Terror cult. The Israels need to stop dropping
bombs on schools, hospital and churches.˙ If they think HAMAS is
hiding somewhere they need to got there with guns and kill them
selectively. Not randomly murdering anyone who gets in the way
of the IDF.˙ Even Israeli intellectuals believe that effectively Genocide
is being done in Gaza.˙ As for food the children are dying from lack
of Food, hospitals are unable to do their good work without fuel and
people trying to get food at distribution points are been terrorized
by the private security hired to distribute the food.
˙˙˙˙
˙˙˙˙Does not matter why Israel is doing anything but too many
children have died already and Netanyahu is only demonstrating
that Jewish Authoritarian governments can be as bad as NAZI
regimes.˙ For every child that dies and leaves grieving relatives
there will be recruits to HAMAS-like organizations dedicated to
the revenge for this Israeli treatment of Palestinians.
˙˙˙˙Of course this is just my opinion based on facts I have
read about.
˙˙˙˙bliss
˙˙˙˙
Scott Lurndal wrote:
Some Gazans may, indeed support Hamas. You'll need to support
your assertion that "all" Gazans do.
Obviously ALL Gazans aren't going to do anything but the whole reason
for the current angst is that when it comes to food aid to Gaza there
are two groups: (1) the UNRRA/UN group which delivers their food aid
to HAMAS who then sells it to Gazans (it's claimed at inflated prices
which I can't verify) but uses the proceeds to pay their troops etc
for what was SUPPOSED to (by donors) to be for FREE distribution to
Gazans, and the pro-Israeli group which refuses to deal with HAMAS and refuses to sell anything - it's strictly given away.
The problem is NOT lack of food - the Israelis say they are currently delivering to Gaza roughly twice what they gave before 7 Oct 2023 -
but rather distribution.
And the fact that HAMAS is selling food that is supposed to be freely
given is utterly shameful.
Bottom line is why is Israel giving ANYTHING? In WW2 America, Britain
and the other Allied countries were very generous to Germans but NOT
until after the Germans had surrendered. HAMAS is still fighting and
holding hostages so why is Israel giving them anything? Gaza can have
peace any time HAMAS wants it - thus far they DON'T - and it's NOT
"genocide" for the Israelis to withhold food aid before there's a
ceasefire. It seems to me all the Israelis giving them food now is
extending the war not shortening it.
As has Washington <>
"Hatcheries have operated in Washington State for more than a century, >beginning with a facility on the Kalama River in 1895."
On Sun, 03 Aug 2025 08:57:04 -0700, Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
As has Washington <>
"Hatcheries have operated in Washington State for more than a century, >beginning with a facility on the Kalama River in 1895."
I should know the answer to this given my father and grandfather were
in the fishing industry but how far south does the Pacific Salmon go?
I know it exists in Puget Sound and the Straits of Juan de Fuca but
does it go as far south as the mouth of the Columbia River? (Which for non-"northwesters" is the WA/OR boundary between Portland and the sea)
On Sun, 03 Aug 2025 08:57:04 -0700, Paul S Person ><psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
As has Washington <>
"Hatcheries have operated in Washington State for more than a century, >>beginning with a facility on the Kalama River in 1895."
I should know the answer to this given my father and grandfather were
in the fishing industry but how far south does the Pacific Salmon go?
I know it exists in Puget Sound and the Straits of Juan de Fuca but
does it go as far south as the mouth of the Columbia River? (Which for >non-"northwesters" is the WA/OR boundary between Portland and the sea)
IIRC, the Columbia (before the dams) was THE salmon fishery on the west >coast. My brief research in Wikipedia articles indicate that the
Sacramento River (which empties into San Francisco Bay) and other rivers >between it and the Columbia have (or had) salmon fisheries.
Pacific salmon runs reach central california. The Klamath, near
the Oregon/California border, is noted for salmon. The Sacramento river, >(Golden Gate) has four annual chinook runs. Further south, the Pajaro river has
mainly steelhead, although there are historic records of Chinook
being caught (Pajaro is at the center of Monterey Bay).
My understanding has always been that the "fish ladders" around the
dams on the Columbia were put in for the salmon.
This wasn't sentimentality: the salmon fishery is a /major/ part of
the economy. Keeping the runs going was vital.
On Mon, 01 Sep 2025 08:34:24 -0700, Paul S Person ><psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
My understanding has always been that the "fish ladders" around the
dams on the Columbia were put in for the salmon.
This wasn't sentimentality: the salmon fishery is a /major/ part of
the economy. Keeping the runs going was vital.
Absolutely - which is why I've said Judge Boldt is so hated for what
may or may not have been a legal decision but was environmentally >catastrophic.
On Sun, 31 Aug 2025 22:01:28 -0700, Robert WoodwardSounds like the treaty should have included a few more parties than
<robertaw@drizzle.com> wrote:
IIRC, the Columbia (before the dams) was THE salmon fishery on the west >>coast. My brief research in Wikipedia articles indicate that the >>Sacramento River (which empties into San Francisco Bay) and other rivers >>between it and the Columbia have (or had) salmon fisheries.
My grandfather was fishing the Fraser and Vancouver Island coast as
early as 1930 - and it was a pretty large fishery at least until Judge
Boldt essentially single-handedly killed the West Coast salmon fishery
by his ruling that ash-canned the Canada-US salmon treaty (which was
about dividing the salmon fishery) by ruling that since Washington
state native tribes had failed to catch "their share" of the catch for
that year could go on fishing (even though the US share of the catch
had ALREADY been caught in full that year) until they had caught the >percentage of the US catch meaning that in that particular year his
ruling meant the US was fishing 20-25% more than they were allowed to
by treaty - which started the salmon on a death spiral in terms of
numbers.
There's a reason why most Canadians who have been involved in the
salmon fishery feel the same way about Boldt the way extreme Kamala
Harris supporters feel about Trump.
(A big part of the problem is the ocean currents around WA / BC / AK
where salmon who spawn in Canadian rivers get their via either the
Straits of Juan de Fuca (which is the straight between Washington
state and Vancouver Island) and further north in the waters between
the Alaska panhandle and the Queen Charlotte Islands to reach their
spawning grounds in British Columbia)
Bottom line is the best way to exterminate a fishery is to over-fish
it for 10-20 years at a rate of 20-25% above a sustainable rate.
The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca> writes:The devil, I suppose, is, as always, in the details.
On Mon, 01 Sep 2025 08:34:24 -0700, Paul S Person >><psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
My understanding has always been that the "fish ladders" around the
dams on the Columbia were put in for the salmon.
This wasn't sentimentality: the salmon fishery is a /major/ part of
the economy. Keeping the runs going was vital.
Absolutely - which is why I've said Judge Boldt is so hated for what
may or may not have been a legal decision but was environmentally >>catastrophic.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Washington
It appears that Judge Boldt simply upheld the treaties. Hard to hate
a man for doing the correct thing.
"Furthermore, the court also held the state could regulate
the Indian tribes' exercise of their treaty rights but only
to ensure the "perpetuation of a run or of a species of fish."[74]
To regulate the tribes, the state must be able to show that
conservation could not be achieved by regulating only the non-Indians,
must not discriminate against the tribes, and must use appropriate due process.[75]
It's not clear to me how that decision was "environmentally catastrophic".
The devil, I suppose, is, as always, in the details.
This whole topic reeks of the "everything was find until someone
decided those non-white people had rights" syndrome.
I suppose it could also have been viewed as shock at the very concept
that treaties made with the First Nations were actually enforceable in
court against white people.
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
The devil, I suppose, is, as always, in the details.
This whole topic reeks of the "everything was find until someone
decided those non-white people had rights" syndrome.
I suppose it could also have been viewed as shock at the very concept
that treaties made with the First Nations were actually enforceable in >>court against white people.
"Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen nineteen and
six, result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery"
-- Charles Dickens, David Copperfield
The difference between sustainable fishing and unsustainable fishing isAnd, if we (USA) were smart, the non-tribal take allowed in subsequent
only a very few fish.
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