• "A Rage for Revenge (War Against the Chtorr, Book 3)" by David Gerrold

    From Lynn McGuire@3:633/10 to All on Sat Nov 29 19:01:46 2025
    "A Rage for Revenge (War Against the Chtorr, Book 3)" by David Gerrold
    https://www.amazon.com/Rage-Revenge-Against-Chtorr-Book/dp/0553278444/

    Book number three of a four book science fiction alien invasion series.
    I reread the well printed and well bound MMPB published by Bantam
    Spectra Books in 1989 that I bought new in 1989. I own a copy of book
    number four and plan to reread it soon.

    The book is dedicated to "for Frank Robinson, with love". There is also
    a thank you list for several people including Robert and Ginny Heinlein,
    Jerry Pournelle, and Richard Fontana, I suspect alpha readers and
    discussion buddies.

    This is very hard sci-fi. Do not pick up this book without having many
    hours available to you to finish it. Once started, the book sucks you
    in gradually so that you say, "just one more chapter". When you finish
    the book at 5:50 am the next morning, you will be exhausted as if you
    had just run a 10K. This also applies to the preceding and follow-on books.

    I have read this book at least three times. Maybe four times. I lost
    count many years ago.

    The first book starts off with a series of plagues that devastate the
    human population across the Earth. Then the weird plants start growing everywhere. Then the huge one meter to five meter long alien
    carnivorous worms show up and starting eating people, cows, horses, etc.
    The worms are very difficult to destroy without a combat rated
    flamethrower.

    In the second book, Jim McCarthy is now a lieutenant in the Army Special Forces. And things are getting worse. McCarthy and Duke are drafted
    into an expedition into northern California to investigate secondary and tertiary worm homes but their assault helicopter crashes when the
    Chtorran airborn plants cause the jet engines to fail. Then things get
    very tough when the bunny dogs riding the worms show up.

    I would advise skipping this book. The subjects are horrible and not
    for the faint at heart or the squeamish. All of the States in the USA
    except Hawaii have worm infestations with worm huts all over the place. Various cults of worm worshipers have sprung up of people actually
    living with the worms and feeding their ... to the worms. There is also aberrant sex in the book.

    Gerrold has claimed many times over the years that there will be a fifth
    book and a sixth book and a seventh book in the series. I will believe
    it when I see it. He stated once to us on his email list that book 5 is
    so insane that he just could not finish several chapters in the middle
    of the book. However, there is a taunting preview of book 5, "A Method
    for Madness", at:

    https://web.archive.org/web/20060321170726/http://www.gerrold.com/chtorr-5/page.htm

    I am hoping that if Gerrold does not finish the books then his son will publish the books when he passes on. Who knows ? Gerrold is very
    sensitive about people asking when he is going to publish the remaining
    books in the series.

    There is another review by James Nicoll at:
    https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/the_world_stood_still

    My rating: 5 out of 5 stars
    Amazon rating: 4.6 out of 5 stars (45 reviews)

    Lynn


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.1
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Paul S Person@3:633/10 to All on Sun Nov 30 08:30:54 2025
    Subject: Re: "A Rage for Revenge (War Against the Chtorr, Book 3)" by David Gerrold

    On Sat, 29 Nov 2025 19:01:46 -0600, Lynn McGuire
    <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:

    "A Rage for Revenge (War Against the Chtorr, Book 3)" by David Gerrold

    https://www.amazon.com/Rage-Revenge-Against-Chtorr-Book/dp/0553278444/

    Book number three of a four book science fiction alien invasion series.
    I reread the well printed and well bound MMPB published by Bantam
    Spectra Books in 1989 that I bought new in 1989. I own a copy of book >number four and plan to reread it soon.

    The book is dedicated to "for Frank Robinson, with love". There is also

    a thank you list for several people including Robert and Ginny Heinlein,

    Jerry Pournelle, and Richard Fontana, I suspect alpha readers and
    discussion buddies.

    This is very hard sci-fi. Do not pick up this book without having many >hours available to you to finish it. Once started, the book sucks you
    in gradually so that you say, "just one more chapter". When you finish
    the book at 5:50 am the next morning, you will be exhausted as if you
    had just run a 10K. This also applies to the preceding and follow-on
    books.

    I have read this book at least three times. Maybe four times. I lost
    count many years ago.

    The first book starts off with a series of plagues that devastate the
    human population across the Earth. Then the weird plants start growing >everywhere. Then the huge one meter to five meter long alien
    carnivorous worms show up and starting eating people, cows, horses, etc.

    The worms are very difficult to destroy without a combat rated
    flamethrower.

    In the second book, Jim McCarthy is now a lieutenant in the Army Special

    Forces. And things are getting worse. McCarthy and Duke are drafted
    into an expedition into northern California to investigate secondary and

    tertiary worm homes but their assault helicopter crashes when the
    Chtorran airborn plants cause the jet engines to fail. Then things get
    very tough when the bunny dogs riding the worms show up.

    I would advise skipping this book. The subjects are horrible and not
    for the faint at heart or the squeamish. All of the States in the USA >except Hawaii have worm infestations with worm huts all over the place. >Various cults of worm worshipers have sprung up of people actually
    living with the worms and feeding their ... to the worms. There is also

    aberrant sex in the book.

    Sounds like Gerrold all right. Book 4 didn't, by any chance, come out
    after he decided to emulate the later Heinlein, did it?

    Looks like the unavailability of this series on Kindle may have saved
    me some time and effort. I got enough of Gerrold's sex descriptions in
    other books that were on Kindle. I skipped the last two on my list
    because they sounded like the same-old same-old.

    But his earlier work (even the TV-series-scripts adapted to novels)
    were not bad, and most were quite good. I would buy more of several
    series should he ever bother to continue the stories. In
    pre-late-Heinlein mode, that is.

    Gerrold has claimed many times over the years that there will be a fifth

    book and a sixth book and a seventh book in the series. I will believe
    it when I see it. He stated once to us on his email list that book 5 is

    so insane that he just could not finish several chapters in the middle
    of the book. However, there is a taunting preview of book 5, "A Method
    for Madness", at:

    https://web.archive.org/web/20060321170726/http://www.gerrold.com/chtorr -5/page.htm

    I am hoping that if Gerrold does not finish the books then his son will >publish the books when he passes on. Who knows ? Gerrold is very
    sensitive about people asking when he is going to publish the remaining >books in the series.

    There is another review by James Nicoll at:
    https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/the_world_stood_still

    My rating: 5 out of 5 stars
    Amazon rating: 4.6 out of 5 stars (45 reviews)

    Lynn
    --
    "Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
    Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
    Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.1
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Lynn McGuire@3:633/10 to All on Sun Nov 30 14:14:23 2025
    Subject: Re: "A Rage for Revenge (War Against the Chtorr, Book 3)" by David Gerrold

    On 11/30/2025 10:30 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
    On Sat, 29 Nov 2025 19:01:46 -0600, Lynn McGuire
    <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:

    "A Rage for Revenge (War Against the Chtorr, Book 3)" by David Gerrold
    https://www.amazon.com/Rage-Revenge-Against-Chtorr-Book/dp/0553278444/ >>
    Book number three of a four book science fiction alien invasion series.
    I reread the well printed and well bound MMPB published by Bantam
    Spectra Books in 1989 that I bought new in 1989. I own a copy of book
    number four and plan to reread it soon.

    The book is dedicated to "for Frank Robinson, with love". There is also
    a thank you list for several people including Robert and Ginny Heinlein,
    Jerry Pournelle, and Richard Fontana, I suspect alpha readers and
    discussion buddies.

    This is very hard sci-fi. Do not pick up this book without having many
    hours available to you to finish it. Once started, the book sucks you
    in gradually so that you say, "just one more chapter". When you finish
    the book at 5:50 am the next morning, you will be exhausted as if you
    had just run a 10K. This also applies to the preceding and follow-on books. >>
    I have read this book at least three times. Maybe four times. I lost
    count many years ago.

    The first book starts off with a series of plagues that devastate the
    human population across the Earth. Then the weird plants start growing
    everywhere. Then the huge one meter to five meter long alien
    carnivorous worms show up and starting eating people, cows, horses, etc.
    The worms are very difficult to destroy without a combat rated
    flamethrower.

    In the second book, Jim McCarthy is now a lieutenant in the Army Special
    Forces. And things are getting worse. McCarthy and Duke are drafted
    into an expedition into northern California to investigate secondary and
    tertiary worm homes but their assault helicopter crashes when the
    Chtorran airborn plants cause the jet engines to fail. Then things get
    very tough when the bunny dogs riding the worms show up.

    I would advise skipping this book. The subjects are horrible and not
    for the faint at heart or the squeamish. All of the States in the USA
    except Hawaii have worm infestations with worm huts all over the place.
    Various cults of worm worshipers have sprung up of people actually
    living with the worms and feeding their ... to the worms. There is also
    aberrant sex in the book.

    Sounds like Gerrold all right. Book 4 didn't, by any chance, come out
    after he decided to emulate the later Heinlein, did it?

    Looks like the unavailability of this series on Kindle may have saved
    me some time and effort. I got enough of Gerrold's sex descriptions in
    other books that were on Kindle. I skipped the last two on my list
    because they sounded like the same-old same-old.

    But his earlier work (even the TV-series-scripts adapted to novels)
    were not bad, and most were quite good. I would buy more of several
    series should he ever bother to continue the stories. In
    pre-late-Heinlein mode, that is.

    Gerrold has claimed many times over the years that there will be a fifth
    book and a sixth book and a seventh book in the series. I will believe
    it when I see it. He stated once to us on his email list that book 5 is
    so insane that he just could not finish several chapters in the middle
    of the book. However, there is a taunting preview of book 5, "A Method
    for Madness", at:

    https://web.archive.org/web/20060321170726/http://www.gerrold.com/chtorr-5/page.htm

    I am hoping that if Gerrold does not finish the books then his son will
    publish the books when he passes on. Who knows ? Gerrold is very
    sensitive about people asking when he is going to publish the remaining
    books in the series.

    There is another review by James Nicoll at:
    https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/the_world_stood_still

    My rating: 5 out of 5 stars
    Amazon rating: 4.6 out of 5 stars (45 reviews)

    Lynn

    It is has been around 20 years since I read book 4. I do not remember
    it well. I have probably read 3,000 books since then. I will be
    rereading it soon.

    The reddit comments are interesting.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/printSF/comments/1pa5vg1/a_rage_for_revenge_war_against_the_chtorr_book_3/

    Lynn


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.1
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Christian Weisgerber@3:633/10 to All on Sun Nov 30 21:14:27 2025
    Subject: Re: "A Rage for Revenge (War Against the Chtorr, Book 3)" by David Gerrold

    On 2025-11-30, Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:

    I would advise skipping this book. The subjects are horrible and not
    for the faint at heart or the squeamish. All of the States in the USA >>except Hawaii have worm infestations with worm huts all over the place. >>Various cults of worm worshipers have sprung up of people actually
    living with the worms and feeding their ... to the worms. There is also >>aberrant sex in the book.

    Sounds like Gerrold all right. Book 4 didn't, by any chance, come out
    after he decided to emulate the later Heinlein, did it?

    I've mostly forgotten the details, but I think the books started
    to veer off a simple "heroic humans fight evil bugs" template and
    the protagonist went through a major self-finding phase.

    The sex can't have been all that interesting or I would remember
    it. ;-) Some body swapping with the telepathy thing, ending up in
    a body of the opposite sex, IIRC?

    --
    Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.1
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Lynn McGuire@3:633/10 to All on Sun Nov 30 16:20:45 2025
    Subject: Re: "A Rage for Revenge (War Against the Chtorr, Book 3)" by David Gerrold

    On 11/30/2025 3:14 PM, Christian Weisgerber wrote:
    On 2025-11-30, Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:

    I would advise skipping this book. The subjects are horrible and not
    for the faint at heart or the squeamish. All of the States in the USA
    except Hawaii have worm infestations with worm huts all over the place.
    Various cults of worm worshipers have sprung up of people actually
    living with the worms and feeding their ... to the worms. There is also >>> aberrant sex in the book.

    Sounds like Gerrold all right. Book 4 didn't, by any chance, come out
    after he decided to emulate the later Heinlein, did it?

    I've mostly forgotten the details, but I think the books started
    to veer off a simple "heroic humans fight evil bugs" template and
    the protagonist went through a major self-finding phase.

    The sex can't have been all that interesting or I would remember
    it. ;-) Some body swapping with the telepathy thing, ending up in
    a body of the opposite sex, IIRC?

    The aberrant sex in the third book is adults having sex with children
    and feeding the children to the worms as a sacrifice to the their gods,
    the worms. They teach the children that their sole purpose in life is to
    feed the worms.

    Lynn


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.1
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From -dsr-@3:633/10 to All on Mon Dec 1 08:52:35 2025
    Subject: Re: "A Rage for Revenge (War Against the Chtorr, Book 3)" by David Gerrold

    On 2025-11-30, Ted Nolan <tednolan> <ted@loft.tnolan.com> wrote:

    That said, there was a very Heinleinesque feel to the last book I thought, though I can recall very little of it now.

    While I would certainly buy a new Chtorr book, I would much rather have
    a new Steerswoman, an eventuality which seems equally unlikely.

    At least both Gerrold and Kirstein are still alive.

    I would also prefer a new Steerswoman; I don't see any hope for humanity, or indeed any Earth-native species in Chtorr.

    -dsr-

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.1
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Paul S Person@3:633/10 to All on Mon Dec 1 08:21:32 2025
    Subject: Re: "A Rage for Revenge (War Against the Chtorr, Book 3)" by David Gerrold

    On Sun, 30 Nov 2025 16:20:45 -0600, Lynn McGuire
    <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:

    On 11/30/2025 3:14 PM, Christian Weisgerber wrote:
    On 2025-11-30, Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:

    I would advise skipping this book. The subjects are horrible and
    not
    for the faint at heart or the squeamish. All of the States in the
    USA
    except Hawaii have worm infestations with worm huts all over the
    place.
    Various cults of worm worshipers have sprung up of people actually
    living with the worms and feeding their ... to the worms. There is
    also
    aberrant sex in the book.

    Sounds like Gerrold all right. Book 4 didn't, by any chance, come out
    after he decided to emulate the later Heinlein, did it?

    I've mostly forgotten the details, but I think the books started
    to veer off a simple "heroic humans fight evil bugs" template and
    the protagonist went through a major self-finding phase.

    The sex can't have been all that interesting or I would remember
    it. ;-) Some body swapping with the telepathy thing, ending up in
    a body of the opposite sex, IIRC?

    The aberrant sex in the third book is adults having sex with children
    and feeding the children to the worms as a sacrifice to the their gods,
    the worms. They teach the children that their sole purpose in life is to

    feed the worms.

    Well, /that's/ a culture that's going to die out all on its own.
    --
    "Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
    Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
    Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.1
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Paul S Person@3:633/10 to All on Mon Dec 1 08:28:07 2025
    Subject: Re: "A Rage for Revenge (War Against the Chtorr, Book 3)" by David Gerrold

    On 30 Nov 2025 21:43:49 GMT, ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan
    <tednolan>) wrote:

    In article <slrn10ipctj.22ds.naddy@lorvorc.mips.inka.de>,
    Christian Weisgerber <naddy@mips.inka.de> wrote:
    On 2025-11-30, Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:

    I would advise skipping this book. The subjects are horrible and not

    for the faint at heart or the squeamish. All of the States in the
    USA
    except Hawaii have worm infestations with worm huts all over the
    place.
    Various cults of worm worshipers have sprung up of people actually >>>>living with the worms and feeding their ... to the worms. There is
    also
    aberrant sex in the book.

    Sounds like Gerrold all right. Book 4 didn't, by any chance, come out
    after he decided to emulate the later Heinlein, did it?

    I've mostly forgotten the details, but I think the books started
    to veer off a simple "heroic humans fight evil bugs" template and
    the protagonist went through a major self-finding phase.

    The sex can't have been all that interesting or I would remember
    it. ;-) Some body swapping with the telepathy thing, ending up in
    a body of the opposite sex, IIRC?


    It would be hard to outdo _The Man Who Folded Himself_.

    I found that one ... idiotic. I didn't so much get the feeling that
    the main character gradually understood his position as that Gerrold
    only figured it out at the end and then decided to pretend that he had
    known it all along. Note that this is just my impression; Gerrold
    could indeed have had it figured out from the beginning.

    From the sex standpoint, both /Jacob/ and /Moonstar Odyssey/
    (available as /Moonstar: Jobe, Book One/; there is no Book Two; this
    is the first book of a one-book series) rival anything Heinlein did.
    Since it wasn't intrinsically interesting, I soon got bored, driving
    on only on the chance that something worth reading would eventually
    happen. And, in a way, it did. Less so in /Jacob/.

    That said, there was a very Heinleinesque feel to the last book I
    thought,
    though I can recall very little of it now.

    While I would certainly buy a new Chtorr book, I would much rather have
    a new Steerswoman, an eventuality which seems equally unlikely.
    --
    "Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
    Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
    Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.1
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Lynn McGuire@3:633/10 to All on Mon Dec 1 20:20:52 2025
    Subject: Re: "A Rage for Revenge (War Against the Chtorr, Book 3)" by David Gerrold

    On 12/1/2025 7:52 AM, -dsr- wrote:
    On 2025-11-30, Ted Nolan <tednolan> <ted@loft.tnolan.com> wrote:

    That said, there was a very Heinleinesque feel to the last book I thought, >> though I can recall very little of it now.

    While I would certainly buy a new Chtorr book, I would much rather have
    a new Steerswoman, an eventuality which seems equally unlikely.

    At least both Gerrold and Kirstein are still alive.

    I would also prefer a new Steerswoman; I don't see any hope for humanity, or indeed any Earth-native species in Chtorr.

    -dsr-

    One hope for humanity is offworld.

    Lynn


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.1
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Lynn McGuire@3:633/10 to All on Mon Dec 1 20:25:52 2025
    Subject: Re: "A Rage for Revenge (War Against the Chtorr, Book 3)" by David Gerrold

    On 12/1/2025 10:21 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
    On Sun, 30 Nov 2025 16:20:45 -0600, Lynn McGuire
    <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:

    On 11/30/2025 3:14 PM, Christian Weisgerber wrote:
    On 2025-11-30, Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:

    I would advise skipping this book. The subjects are horrible and not >>>>> for the faint at heart or the squeamish. All of the States in the USA >>>>> except Hawaii have worm infestations with worm huts all over the place. >>>>> Various cults of worm worshipers have sprung up of people actually
    living with the worms and feeding their ... to the worms. There is also >>>>> aberrant sex in the book.

    Sounds like Gerrold all right. Book 4 didn't, by any chance, come out
    after he decided to emulate the later Heinlein, did it?

    I've mostly forgotten the details, but I think the books started
    to veer off a simple "heroic humans fight evil bugs" template and
    the protagonist went through a major self-finding phase.

    The sex can't have been all that interesting or I would remember
    it. ;-) Some body swapping with the telepathy thing, ending up in
    a body of the opposite sex, IIRC?

    The aberrant sex in the third book is adults having sex with children
    and feeding the children to the worms as a sacrifice to the their gods,
    the worms. They teach the children that their sole purpose in life is to
    feed the worms.

    Well, /that's/ a culture that's going to die out all on its own.

    The prognosis of humanity on Earth is not good regardless.

    Lynn


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.1
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Dimensional Traveler@3:633/10 to All on Mon Dec 1 21:38:57 2025
    Subject: Re: "A Rage for Revenge (War Against the Chtorr, Book 3)" by David Gerrold

    On 12/1/2025 6:20 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
    On 12/1/2025 7:52 AM, -dsr- wrote:
    On 2025-11-30, Ted Nolan <tednolan> <ted@loft.tnolan.com> wrote:

    That said, there was a very Heinleinesque feel to the last book I
    thought,
    though I can recall very little of it now.

    While I would certainly buy a new Chtorr book, I would much rather have
    a new Steerswoman, an eventuality which seems equally unlikely.

    At least both Gerrold and Kirstein are still alive.

    I would also prefer a new Steerswoman; I don't see any hope for
    humanity, or
    indeed any Earth-native species in Chtorr.

    -dsr-

    One hope for humanity is offworld.

    Where the Chtorr came from....

    --
    I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
    dirty old man.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.1
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From James Nicoll@3:633/10 to All on Tue Dec 2 15:29:33 2025
    Subject: Re: "A Rage for Revenge (War Against the Chtorr, Book 3)" by David Gerrold

    In article <10glu1e$20uq1$1@dont-email.me>,
    Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
    On 12/1/2025 6:20 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
    On 12/1/2025 7:52 AM, -dsr- wrote:
    On 2025-11-30, Ted Nolan <tednolan> <ted@loft.tnolan.com> wrote:

    That said, there was a very Heinleinesque feel to the last book I
    thought,
    though I can recall very little of it now.

    While I would certainly buy a new Chtorr book, I would much rather have >>>> a new Steerswoman, an eventuality which seems equally unlikely.

    At least both Gerrold and Kirstein are still alive.

    I would also prefer a new Steerswoman; I don't see any hope for
    humanity, or
    indeed any Earth-native species in Chtorr.

    -dsr-

    One hope for humanity is offworld.

    Where the Chtorr came from....

    Unless they came from the future.

    --
    My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
    My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
    My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
    My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.1
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Don@3:633/10 to All on Tue Dec 2 17:21:08 2025
    Subject: Re: "A Rage for Revenge (War Against the Chtorr, Book 3)" by David Gerrold

    Paul S Person wrote:
    Ted Nolan wrote:
    Christian Weisgerber wrote:
    Paul S Person wrote:

    I would advise skipping this book. The subjects are horrible and not >>>>>for the faint at heart or the squeamish. All of the States in the USA >>>>>except Hawaii have worm infestations with worm huts all over the place. >>>>>Various cults of worm worshipers have sprung up of people actually >>>>>living with the worms and feeding their ... to the worms. There is also >>>>>aberrant sex in the book.

    Sounds like Gerrold all right. Book 4 didn't, by any chance, come out
    after he decided to emulate the later Heinlein, did it?

    I've mostly forgotten the details, but I think the books started
    to veer off a simple "heroic humans fight evil bugs" template and
    the protagonist went through a major self-finding phase.

    The sex can't have been all that interesting or I would remember
    it. ;-) Some body swapping with the telepathy thing, ending up in
    a body of the opposite sex, IIRC?


    It would be hard to outdo _The Man Who Folded Himself_.

    I found that one ... idiotic. I didn't so much get the feeling that
    the main character gradually understood his position as that Gerrold
    only figured it out at the end and then decided to pretend that he had
    known it all along. Note that this is just my impression; Gerrold
    could indeed have had it figured out from the beginning.

    From the sex standpoint, both /Jacob/ and /Moonstar Odyssey/
    (available as /Moonstar: Jobe, Book One/; there is no Book Two; this
    is the first book of a one-book series) rival anything Heinlein did.
    Since it wasn't intrinsically interesting, I soon got bored, driving
    on only on the chance that something worth reading would eventually
    happen. And, in a way, it did. Less so in /Jacob/.

    That said, there was a very Heinleinesque feel to the last book I thought, >>though I can recall very little of it now.

    While I would certainly buy a new Chtorr book, I would much rather have
    a new Steerswoman, an eventuality which seems equally unlikely.

    Idiocy is in the eye of the beholder.

    The 1950-1960s nostalgia implicit in THE MAN WHO FOLDED HIMSELF brings
    to mind REPLAY's fond memories of the 1960-1970s. My mind is nostalgia
    neutral so neither hooks me with "memories, sweetened through the ages
    just like wine."

    Are ALL YOU ZOMBIES and THE MAN WHO FOLDED HIMSELF the sole SF self-sex
    stories tangled in time travel?

    Precedence does not imply provenance.

    Self-sex science fiction was first formulated by RAH. He predictably
    kept his narrative basic and bare bones by using only four time loop characters: Jane, the baby, the unmarried mother, and the bartender.
    Gerrold embellishes by expanding his ensemble of time loop
    characters. Calculating the character count could prove difficult in
    the case of THE MAN WHO FOLDED HIMSELF.

    --
    Don.......My cat's )\._.,--....,'``. veritas _|_ telltale tall tail /, _.. \ _\ (`._ ,. liberabit |
    tells tall tales.. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.' vos |


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.1
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Paul S Person@3:633/10 to All on Wed Dec 3 08:38:09 2025
    Subject: Re: "A Rage for Revenge (War Against the Chtorr, Book 3)" by David Gerrold

    On Tue, 2 Dec 2025 17:21:08 -0000 (UTC), "Don" <g@crcomp.net> wrote:

    Paul S Person wrote:

    <snippo: Sex and Time Travel and /The Man Who Folded Himself/>

    Idiocy is in the eye of the beholder.

    Whatever.

    <snippo>

    Are ALL YOU ZOMBIES and THE MAN WHO FOLDED HIMSELF the sole SF self-sex >stories tangled in time travel?

    Precedence does not imply provenance.

    Self-sex science fiction was first formulated by RAH. He predictably
    kept his narrative basic and bare bones by using only four time loop >characters: Jane, the baby, the unmarried mother, and the bartender.
    Gerrold embellishes by expanding his ensemble of time loop
    characters. Calculating the character count could prove difficult in
    the case of THE MAN WHO FOLDED HIMSELF.

    I believe the precise answer is -- infinite. Possibly uncountable.

    As to "--All You Zombies--", this is a short story, which explains its shortness compared to /The Man Who Folded Himself/, which is a novel.

    It was made into the film /Predestination/, which feels like a good
    Heinlein story done exactly (I've never read the story so cannot say
    how close they are). But, of course, adapting a short story to a film
    is likely to follow the original better (unless, of course, the
    filmmakers decide to go off in their own direction instead of doing
    something so boring as actually telling the same story) than a novel
    because there is enough screen time to include most if not all of the
    short story.

    As to the number of characters, I would say it has essentially /one/.
    Although other characters exist (most prominently the Agency guy).
    That, after all, is the point of the story. Or at least of the film.
    --
    "Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
    Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
    Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.1
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Robert Woodward@3:633/10 to All on Wed Dec 3 09:47:13 2025
    Subject: Re: "A Rage for Revenge (War Against the Chtorr, Book 3)" by David Gerrold

    In article <lto0jk54dgjlvumbg6vd4m6dvnhug26kna@4ax.com>,
    Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:

    On Tue, 2 Dec 2025 17:21:08 -0000 (UTC), "Don" <g@crcomp.net> wrote:

    Paul S Person wrote:

    <snippo: Sex and Time Travel and /The Man Who Folded Himself/>

    Idiocy is in the eye of the beholder.

    Whatever.

    <snippo>

    Are ALL YOU ZOMBIES and THE MAN WHO FOLDED HIMSELF the sole SF self-sex >stories tangled in time travel?

    Precedence does not imply provenance.

    Self-sex science fiction was first formulated by RAH. He predictably
    kept his narrative basic and bare bones by using only four time loop >characters: Jane, the baby, the unmarried mother, and the bartender.
    Gerrold embellishes by expanding his ensemble of time loop
    characters. Calculating the character count could prove difficult in
    the case of THE MAN WHO FOLDED HIMSELF.

    I believe the precise answer is -- infinite. Possibly uncountable.

    As to "--All You Zombies--", this is a short story, which explains its shortness compared to /The Man Who Folded Himself/, which is a novel.

    It was made into the film /Predestination/, which feels like a good
    Heinlein story done exactly (I've never read the story so cannot say
    how close they are). But, of course, adapting a short story to a film
    is likely to follow the original better (unless, of course, the
    filmmakers decide to go off in their own direction instead of doing
    something so boring as actually telling the same story) than a novel
    because there is enough screen time to include most if not all of the
    short story.

    As to the number of characters, I would say it has essentially /one/. Although other characters exist (most prominently the Agency guy).
    That, after all, is the point of the story. Or at least of the film.

    Agency guy? IIRC, the story, other than scene extras, had only 1
    character (who, because of time travel, shows up twice in many scenes,
    perhaps even thrice once or twice). So is this Agency guy someone the
    script writer added or is it the same character again?

    --
    "We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
    Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_. -------------------------------------------------------
    Robert Woodward robertaw@drizzle.com

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.1
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Don@3:633/10 to All on Wed Dec 3 17:58:32 2025
    Subject: Re: "A Rage for Revenge (War Against the Chtorr, Book 3)" by David Gerrold

    Robert Woodward wrote:
    Paul S Person wrote:
    Don wrote:
    Paul S Person wrote:

    <snippo: Sex and Time Travel and /The Man Who Folded Himself/>

    Idiocy is in the eye of the beholder.

    Whatever.

    <snippo>

    Are ALL YOU ZOMBIES and THE MAN WHO FOLDED HIMSELF the sole SF self-sex
    stories tangled in time travel?

    Precedence does not imply provenance.

    Self-sex science fiction was first formulated by RAH. He predictably
    kept his narrative basic and bare bones by using only four time loop
    characters: Jane, the baby, the unmarried mother, and the bartender.
    Gerrold embellishes by expanding his ensemble of time loop
    characters. Calculating the character count could prove difficult in
    the case of THE MAN WHO FOLDED HIMSELF.

    I believe the precise answer is -- infinite. Possibly uncountable.

    As to "--All You Zombies--", this is a short story, which explains its
    shortness compared to /The Man Who Folded Himself/, which is a novel.

    It was made into the film /Predestination/, which feels like a good
    Heinlein story done exactly (I've never read the story so cannot say
    how close they are). But, of course, adapting a short story to a film
    is likely to follow the original better (unless, of course, the
    filmmakers decide to go off in their own direction instead of doing
    something so boring as actually telling the same story) than a novel
    short story.

    As to the number of characters, I would say it has essentially /one/.
    Although other characters exist (most prominently the Agency guy).
    That, after all, is the point of the story. Or at least of the film.

    Agency guy? IIRC, the story, other than scene extras, had only 1
    character (who, because of time travel, shows up twice in many scenes, perhaps even thrice once or twice). So is this Agency guy someone the
    script writer added or is it the same character again?

    Good question. Allow me to clear up character count confusion.

    My "time loop character" is separate and distinct from the narrative's
    one character. Each independent idiosyncratic identity instantiation
    (eg Jane, the baby, the unmarried mother, and the bartender) of the one narrative character counts as one "time loop character."

    --
    Don.......My cat's )\._.,--....,'``. veritas _|_ telltale tall tail /, _.. \ _\ (`._ ,. liberabit |
    tells tall tales.. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.' vos |


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.1
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Paul S Person@3:633/10 to All on Thu Dec 4 08:18:29 2025
    Subject: Re: "A Rage for Revenge (War Against the Chtorr, Book 3)" by David Gerrold

    On Wed, 03 Dec 2025 09:47:13 -0800, Robert Woodward
    <robertaw@drizzle.com> wrote:

    In article <lto0jk54dgjlvumbg6vd4m6dvnhug26kna@4ax.com>,
    Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:

    On Tue, 2 Dec 2025 17:21:08 -0000 (UTC), "Don" <g@crcomp.net> wrote:

    Paul S Person wrote:

    <snippo: Sex and Time Travel and /The Man Who Folded Himself/>

    Idiocy is in the eye of the beholder.

    Whatever.

    <snippo>

    Are ALL YOU ZOMBIES and THE MAN WHO FOLDED HIMSELF the sole SF
    self-sex
    stories tangled in time travel?

    Precedence does not imply provenance.

    Self-sex science fiction was first formulated by RAH. He predictably
    kept his narrative basic and bare bones by using only four time loop
    characters: Jane, the baby, the unmarried mother, and the bartender.
    Gerrold embellishes by expanding his ensemble of time loop
    characters. Calculating the character count could prove difficult in
    the case of THE MAN WHO FOLDED HIMSELF.

    I believe the precise answer is -- infinite. Possibly uncountable.

    As to "--All You Zombies--", this is a short story, which explains its
    shortness compared to /The Man Who Folded Himself/, which is a novel.

    It was made into the film /Predestination/, which feels like a good
    Heinlein story done exactly (I've never read the story so cannot say
    how close they are). But, of course, adapting a short story to a film
    is likely to follow the original better (unless, of course, the
    filmmakers decide to go off in their own direction instead of doing
    something so boring as actually telling the same story) than a novel
    because there is enough screen time to include most if not all of the
    short story.

    As to the number of characters, I would say it has essentially /one/.
    Although other characters exist (most prominently the Agency guy).
    That, after all, is the point of the story. Or at least of the film.

    Agency guy? IIRC, the story, other than scene extras, had only 1
    character (who, because of time travel, shows up twice in many scenes, >perhaps even thrice once or twice). So is this Agency guy someone the
    script writer added or is it the same character again?

    That would be Mr. Robinson. He recruits her for Comfort Girl work in
    orbit, and later talks with him a bit (<https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2397535/characters/nm0852965/?ref_=tt_cs
    t_c_3>
    has examples).

    If that sounds confusing, well, that's time travel!

    Perhaps he replaces exposition done differently in the text with
    exposition done through conversation. As /The Hunger Games/ does: in
    the book, Katniss is a fount of information; in the film, she is told
    some of it because that also tells the audience.

    But to really find out what was changed and how good an adaptation it
    is, you would need to see the movie.
    --
    "Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
    Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
    Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.1
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Paul S Person@3:633/10 to All on Thu Dec 4 08:32:55 2025
    Subject: Re: "A Rage for Revenge (War Against the Chtorr, Book 3)" by David Gerrold

    On Wed, 3 Dec 2025 17:58:32 -0000 (UTC), "Don" <g@crcomp.net> wrote:

    Robert Woodward wrote:
    Paul S Person wrote:
    Don wrote:
    Paul S Person wrote:

    <snippo: Sex and Time Travel and /The Man Who Folded Himself/>

    Idiocy is in the eye of the beholder.

    Whatever.

    <snippo>

    Are ALL YOU ZOMBIES and THE MAN WHO FOLDED HIMSELF the sole SF
    self-sex
    stories tangled in time travel?

    Precedence does not imply provenance.

    Self-sex science fiction was first formulated by RAH. He predictably
    kept his narrative basic and bare bones by using only four time loop
    characters: Jane, the baby, the unmarried mother, and the bartender.
    Gerrold embellishes by expanding his ensemble of time loop
    characters. Calculating the character count could prove difficult in
    the case of THE MAN WHO FOLDED HIMSELF.

    I believe the precise answer is -- infinite. Possibly uncountable.

    As to "--All You Zombies--", this is a short story, which explains
    its
    shortness compared to /The Man Who Folded Himself/, which is a novel.

    It was made into the film /Predestination/, which feels like a good
    Heinlein story done exactly (I've never read the story so cannot say
    how close they are). But, of course, adapting a short story to a film
    is likely to follow the original better (unless, of course, the
    filmmakers decide to go off in their own direction instead of doing
    something so boring as actually telling the same story) than a novel
    short story.

    As to the number of characters, I would say it has essentially /one/.
    Although other characters exist (most prominently the Agency guy).
    That, after all, is the point of the story. Or at least of the film.

    Agency guy? IIRC, the story, other than scene extras, had only 1
    character (who, because of time travel, shows up twice in many scenes,
    perhaps even thrice once or twice). So is this Agency guy someone the
    script writer added or is it the same character again?

    Good question. Allow me to clear up character count confusion.

    My "time loop character" is separate and distinct from the narrative's
    one character. Each independent idiosyncratic identity instantiation
    (eg Jane, the baby, the unmarried mother, and the bartender) of the one >narrative character counts as one "time loop character."

    Since I haven't read the story and since Ethan Hawke's character is
    named "The Bartender" per IMDb, I can only point out that he is /not/
    a bartender in several scenes, but an agent. Not to mention his final incarnation, as it were.

    Interestingly, Sarah Snook's is name "The Unmarried Mother". "Jane"
    does not appear, although the infant does (in time-honored tradition, apparently played by twin infants).

    But it you really want "time loop characters", in the restricted sense
    of being the protagonist, you would need:
    baby Jane
    child Jane (possibly several)
    young adult Jane
    James
    unmarried mother Jane
    agent who gets injured
    agent who recovers
    bartender/agent
    kidnapper agent/retiring agent
    and a mystery guest at the end

    If you want to nominate a few more, feel free.

    Try and avoid the spoiler.
    --
    "Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
    Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
    Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.1
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)