• (ReacTor) Side-Eyeing Science Fiction's Love of Empire

    From James Nicoll@3:633/10 to All on Wed Jan 14 15:26:03 2026
    Side-Eyeing Science Fiction's Love of Empire

    ...Wait, we're supposed to believe that it's the rebels who are wrong?

    https://reactormag.com/side-eyeing-science-fictions-love-of-empire/
    --
    My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
    My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
    My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
    My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
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  • From Lawrence D?Oliveiro@3:633/10 to All on Wed Jan 14 22:08:56 2026
    On Wed, 14 Jan 2026 15:26:03 -0000 (UTC), James Nicoll wrote:

    ...Wait, we're supposed to believe that it's the rebels who are
    wrong?

    You know the old saying: ?One side?s ?terrorist? is the other side?s
    ?freedom fighter??. If the insurgency succeeds, then it was right all
    along, otherwise it was wrong. Mostly.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Bobbie Sellers@3:633/10 to All on Wed Jan 14 15:32:28 2026


    On 1/14/26 14:08, Lawrence D?Oliveiro wrote:
    On Wed, 14 Jan 2026 15:26:03 -0000 (UTC), James Nicoll wrote:

    ...Wait, we're supposed to believe that it's the rebels who are
    wrong?

    You know the old saying: ?One side?s ?terrorist? is the other side?s
    ?freedom fighter??. If the insurgency succeeds, then it was right all
    along, otherwise it was wrong. Mostly.

    That was the story with the American Revolution which was our first uncivil war where the Loyalists were persecuted by the Patriots and vice
    versa. Neighbors killed neighbors over this little political disagreement.

    bliss


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Bobbie Sellers@3:633/10 to All on Wed Jan 14 15:51:53 2026


    On 1/14/26 07:26, James Nicoll wrote:
    Side-Eyeing Science Fiction's Love of Empire

    ...Wait, we're supposed to believe that it's the rebels who are wrong?

    https://reactormag.com/side-eyeing-science-fictions-love-of-empire/

    Empires of various sorts and durations constitute a lot of human history
    right back into prehistory. Vast cultures arose in the Americas and
    fell when
    some changes to the ecology or simply a failure of rain to come on time happened.
    The Chinese Empire was forged out of collection of warring states and China of today is the result with ambitions to extend the Empire even
    further under
    the workers' controls of course(NOT). From dominant warlords to Dominant Political parties with control of the Red Army.

    Some republics are Empires as with the Continental USA and some are unstable dictatorial regimes in the USSR, Germany in the 1930s and 1940s.
    Japan in the same period. The original Japanese Empire was forged before
    the year 1000 CE and replaced by the Shogunate by 1200 CE. Weak shoguns
    lead to about 400 years of Civil War with a strong set of leaders: Nobunaga, Hideyoshi and Ieyasu beginning another 260 years of dictatorial unity.
    Western intervention eventually ended the Shogunate but the restoration of the Empire was controlled by the magnates of the more advanced provinces. They discarded the caste system where peasants were the most oppressed
    but necessary class with the samurai warriors enforcing peace and having
    the privilege of testing swords on any peasant who was the least bit
    rude to them. They were replaced by a relatively modern army but with
    the death of Meji's son and the ascendance of Hirohito aka Showa, the
    military had control of the mind of the Emperor and once more the
    imperial ambition to extend the Empire came into play and in the
    1930s-1945 they ruined their nation.
    Now the USA has Trump who does not pay much attention to the constitutional limits to his power and our empire may fall as a result.

    So when we talk about empires in SF we are merely using a historially consistent form of political organization. Sociopaths and psychopath keep gaining power and attempting to extend that power create empires and
    if they are republican empires that is better than military or charismatic empires.

    bliss


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Lawrence D?Oliveiro@3:633/10 to All on Thu Jan 15 01:35:43 2026
    On Wed, 14 Jan 2026 15:51:53 -0800, Bobbie Sellers wrote:

    Empires of various sorts and durations constitute a lot of human
    history right back into prehistory.

    Reading a book on the early history of Mesopotamia just made me sad.
    The first city-states in the world, the beginnings of civilization,
    and they spent centuries warring against each other. Time after time,
    a strong king would arise who unified a bunch of them into something
    resembling the beginnings of empire and some kind of peace within its
    borders, only for it to fall to bits again after his death, and
    everybody to go back to warring against each other again.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Scott Dorsey@3:633/10 to All on Thu Jan 15 11:02:11 2026
    Lawrence =?iso-8859-13?q?D=FFOliveiro?= <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
    Reading a book on the early history of Mesopotamia just made me sad.
    The first city-states in the world, the beginnings of civilization,
    and they spent centuries warring against each other. Time after time,
    a strong king would arise who unified a bunch of them into something >resembling the beginnings of empire and some kind of peace within its >borders, only for it to fall to bits again after his death, and
    everybody to go back to warring against each other again.

    Sadly, this is the story of so many places. China is one of the most fascinating.
    --scott
    --
    "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Paul S Person@3:633/10 to All on Thu Jan 15 08:31:52 2026
    On Thu, 15 Jan 2026 11:02:11 -0500 (EST), kludge@panix.com (Scott
    Dorsey) wrote:

    Lawrence =?iso-8859-13?q?D=FFOliveiro?= <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
    Reading a book on the early history of Mesopotamia just made me sad.
    The first city-states in the world, the beginnings of civilization,
    and they spent centuries warring against each other. Time after time,
    a strong king would arise who unified a bunch of them into something >>resembling the beginnings of empire and some kind of peace within its >>borders, only for it to fall to bits again after his death, and
    everybody to go back to warring against each other again.

    Sadly, this is the story of so many places. China is one of the most >fascinating.

    And about due for another Warring States period.

    Well, Warring Socialist People's Republics, anyway.

    With nukes.
    --
    "Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
    Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
    Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From William Hyde@3:633/10 to All on Thu Jan 15 14:17:54 2026
    James Nicoll wrote:
    Side-Eyeing Science Fiction's Love of Empire

    ...Wait, we're supposed to believe that it's the rebels who are wrong?

    https://reactormag.com/side-eyeing-science-fictions-love-of-empire/

    I think that one of the reasons "Foundation's Edge" disappointed some
    people was that Asimov had changed his mind about Empire while writing
    "Second Foundation", or perhaps earlier.

    When he was younger he was impressed by Gibbon's declaration that the
    century and a bit of the "five good emperors" plus the first few years
    of Commodus, were the best time for people in European history, mainly
    because there were no (1) internal wars, though there was fighting on
    the frontiers. And a galactic empire wouldn't have frontiers.

    But that was one century of five or six.

    The only close look we get at the Second Foundation in the earlier books involves a benign pair of grandparents, the Palvers. I believe that he
    created these to hide the implications of SF rule which had begun to
    bother him. Cuddly granddad cannot be a dictator, can he?

    Very early on in Second Foundation we see the leaders of that
    organization squabbling among themselves, fighting turf wars like any
    other bureaucrats. Whether they will be significantly better than the Emperors who preceded them becomes a difficult question to answer.
    They'll perhaps be more efficient, but also impossible to overthrow.

    At first I found the more realistic view of the Second Foundation
    unsettling, but I realized that this was implicit in the earlier books,
    if hidden.

    Clarke doesn't write much about empires, but the few we do see offstage
    are generally blowing themselves up.

    (1), well for small but nonzero values of "no".

    William Hyde

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Steve Coltrin@3:633/10 to All on Thu Jan 15 14:00:35 2026
    begin fnord
    William Hyde <wthyde1953@gmail.com> writes:

    Very early on in Second Foundation we see the leaders of that
    organization squabbling among themselves, fighting turf wars like any
    other bureaucrats.

    Suppose he modelled them on faculty politics at Boston University?

    --
    Steve Coltrin spcoltri@omcl.org
    "A group known as the League of Human Dignity helped arrange for Deuel
    to be driven to a local livestock scale, where he could be weighed."
    - Associated Press

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Garrett Wollman@3:633/10 to All on Thu Jan 15 21:22:19 2026
    In article <10kbehb$11og5$1@dont-email.me>,
    William Hyde <wthyde1953@gmail.com> wrote:

    I think that one of the reasons "Foundation's Edge" disappointed some
    people was that Asimov had changed his mind about Empire while writing >"Second Foundation", or perhaps earlier.

    I think a bigger reason was that FE wasn't edited by John W. Campbell,
    if indeed it was edited at all. If you liked the earlier stuff
    (fixups of stort stories and novellas that Campbell bought and argued
    over with Asimov), the "flabby" later books are what made people say
    Asimov had succumbed to the Brain Eater.

    Asimov told the story on himself that he went to a meeting with his
    editor at Doubleday intending to pitch another book and the editor
    handed him the largest advance he'd ever seen and told him he was
    going to write a Foundation novel. There were a lot of things wrong
    with Campbell but he wanted to buy material that would sell magazines,
    whereas by the time _Foundation's Edge_ was published, Doubleday could
    have sold almost as many copies of the Manhattan phone directory if it
    said "by ISAAC ASIMOV" on the cover.

    -GAWollman

    --
    Garrett A. Wollman | "Act to avoid constraining the future; if you can, wollman@bimajority.org| act to remove constraint from the future. This is Opinions not shared by| a thing you can do, are able to do, to do together."
    my employers. | - Graydon Saunders, _A Succession of Bad Days_ (2015)

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Lawrence D?Oliveiro@3:633/10 to All on Thu Jan 15 21:23:40 2026
    On Thu, 15 Jan 2026 11:02:11 -0500 (EST), Scott Dorsey wrote:

    On Thu, 15 Jan 2026 01:35:43 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D?Oliveiro wrote:

    Reading a book on the early history of Mesopotamia just made me sad.
    The first city-states in the world, the beginnings of civilization,
    and they spent centuries warring against each other.

    Sadly, this is the story of so many places. China is one of the most fascinating.

    China at least was able to achieve centuries-long episodes of
    largely-peaceful conditions at a time -- most of the strife came from
    foreign invasions. To the point where they automatically assumed that foreigners must be ?barbarians?.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From William Hyde@3:633/10 to All on Thu Jan 15 16:40:06 2026
    Steve Coltrin wrote:
    begin fnord
    William Hyde <wthyde1953@gmail.com> writes:

    Very early on in Second Foundation we see the leaders of that
    organization squabbling among themselves, fighting turf wars like any
    other bureaucrats.

    Suppose he modelled them on faculty politics at Boston University?

    That could well be the case. According to his autobiography he did have
    some problems with the administration. And there is something vaguely academic about the scene.

    However, I've been in a lot of faculty meetings, and the greatest threat
    is the person who feels that the meeting isn't over until he/she has
    said something, however irrelevant that something is. And when there are
    two or three such persons ...

    But maybe we were a laid back bunch.

    William Hyde

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From William Hyde@3:633/10 to All on Thu Jan 15 16:45:52 2026
    Garrett Wollman wrote:
    In article <10kbehb$11og5$1@dont-email.me>,
    William Hyde <wthyde1953@gmail.com> wrote:

    I think that one of the reasons "Foundation's Edge" disappointed some
    people was that Asimov had changed his mind about Empire while writing
    "Second Foundation", or perhaps earlier.

    I think a bigger reason was that FE wasn't edited by John W. Campbell,
    if indeed it was edited at all. If you liked the earlier stuff
    (fixups of stort stories and novellas that Campbell bought and argued
    over with Asimov), the "flabby" later books are what made people say
    Asimov had succumbed to the Brain Eater.

    There were several reasons other than the one I gave. I gave that
    reason as it pertains to the thread, and the excessive love of some in
    the SF world for empires. Asimov changed his mind, his readers by and
    large did not.

    On a reread of the series years ago, I was struck by how much better FE
    is written than the earlier works. Better written but not as much fun.
    As you note, Asimov didn't really want to write it, and perhaps that
    accounts for a certain amount of that loss of fun SF exuberance.

    William Hyde

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Paul S Person@3:633/10 to All on Fri Jan 16 08:45:59 2026
    On Thu, 15 Jan 2026 21:23:40 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D?Oliveiro
    <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:

    On Thu, 15 Jan 2026 11:02:11 -0500 (EST), Scott Dorsey wrote:

    On Thu, 15 Jan 2026 01:35:43 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D?Oliveiro wrote:

    Reading a book on the early history of Mesopotamia just made me sad.
    The first city-states in the world, the beginnings of civilization,
    and they spent centuries warring against each other.

    Sadly, this is the story of so many places. China is one of the most
    fascinating.

    China at least was able to achieve centuries-long episodes of >largely-peaceful conditions at a time -- most of the strife came from
    foreign invasions. To the point where they automatically assumed that >foreigners must be ?barbarians?.

    I actually ran into a note in a high-level super-intellectual
    commentary the other day identifying the Greek for "barbarian" as
    meaning "talks nonsense".

    This is a sort-of confirmation of an earlier claim that, when they
    first started trading with Semites, those Semites spoke a language
    that use "bar" where Arabic uses "ibn" and Hebrew "ben", and called
    them "barbarians" meaning "people who say 'bar' a lot".
    --
    "Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
    Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
    Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Don@3:633/10 to All on Sat Jan 17 16:29:40 2026
    Scott Dorsey wrote:
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    Reading a book on the early history of Mesopotamia just made me sad.
    The first city-states in the world, the beginnings of civilization,
    and they spent centuries warring against each other. Time after time,
    a strong king would arise who unified a bunch of them into something >>resembling the beginnings of empire and some kind of peace within its >>borders, only for it to fall to bits again after his death, and
    everybody to go back to warring against each other again.

    Sadly, this is the story of so many places. China is one of the most fascinating.

    Europe's existential "Forever War" hits closer to home for me:

    <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LfdXoL3Xck>

    Wars and rumors of war are foretold by Saint Matthew the Apostle.

    --
    Don.......My cat's )\._.,--....,'``. https://crcomp.net/reviews.php telltale tall tail /, _.. \ _\ (`._ ,. veritas liberabit vos
    tells tall tales.. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.' Make 1984 fiction again.


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Bobbie Sellers@3:633/10 to All on Sat Jan 17 12:58:07 2026


    On 1/17/26 08:29, Don wrote:
    Scott Dorsey wrote:
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    Reading a book on the early history of Mesopotamia just made me sad.
    The first city-states in the world, the beginnings of civilization,
    and they spent centuries warring against each other. Time after time,
    a strong king would arise who unified a bunch of them into something
    resembling the beginnings of empire and some kind of peace within its
    borders, only for it to fall to bits again after his death, and
    everybody to go back to warring against each other again.

    Sadly, this is the story of so many places. China is one of the most
    fascinating.

    Europe's existential "Forever War" hits closer to home for me:

    <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LfdXoL3Xck>

    Wars and rumors of war are foretold by Saint Matthew the Apostle.

    He must have read some history.



    --
    Don.......My cat's )\._.,--....,'``. https://crcomp.net/reviews.php telltale tall tail /, _.. \ _\ (`._ ,. veritas liberabit vos tells tall tales.. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.' Make 1984 fiction again.


    bliss - who has read a bit, just a bit, of history...



    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Lawrence D?Oliveiro@3:633/10 to All on Sat Jan 17 22:23:08 2026
    On Sat, 17 Jan 2026 16:29:40 -0000 (UTC), Don wrote:

    Wars and rumors of war are foretold by Saint Matthew the Apostle.

    Wow, it?s like nobody else thought that wars would happen ...

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Lawrence D?Oliveiro@3:633/10 to All on Sat Jan 17 22:25:11 2026
    On Thu, 15 Jan 2026 08:31:52 -0800, Paul S Person wrote:

    And about due for another Warring States period.

    Which current authoritarian leader, notable for his doctrinaire and
    erratic ideas of Government, looks to be pushing his country to the
    brink of civil war?

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Scott Dorsey@3:633/10 to All on Sat Jan 17 19:20:28 2026
    In article <10kh24b$2tq7m$1@dont-email.me>,
    Lawrence =?iso-8859-13?q?D=FFOliveiro?= <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
    On Sat, 17 Jan 2026 16:29:40 -0000 (UTC), Don wrote:

    Wars and rumors of war are foretold by Saint Matthew the Apostle.

    Wow, it's like nobody else thought that wars would happen ...

    Ancestral voices, prophecying war!
    --scott
    --
    "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Titus G@3:633/10 to All on Sun Jan 18 17:51:23 2026
    On 18/01/26 11:25, Lawrence D?Oliveiro wrote:
    On Thu, 15 Jan 2026 08:31:52 -0800, Paul S Person wrote:

    And about due for another Warring States period.

    Which current authoritarian leader, notable for his doctrinaire and
    erratic ideas of Government, looks to be pushing his country to the
    brink of civil war?

    I can't imagine just one person being able and therefore responsible for
    such erratic behaviour perhaps leading to slaughter and sometimes
    genocide. There has to be sufficient political and media support behind
    the figurehead of the industrial military complex, its financiers and
    its not so secret "police".

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Bobbie Sellers@3:633/10 to All on Sat Jan 17 23:13:44 2026


    On 1/17/26 20:51, Titus G wrote:
    On 18/01/26 11:25, Lawrence D?Oliveiro wrote:
    On Thu, 15 Jan 2026 08:31:52 -0800, Paul S Person wrote:

    And about due for another Warring States period.

    Which current authoritarian leader, notable for his doctrinaire and
    erratic ideas of Government, looks to be pushing his country to the
    brink of civil war?

    I can't imagine just one person being able and therefore responsible for
    such erratic behaviour perhaps leading to slaughter and sometimes
    genocide. There has to be sufficient political and media support behind
    the figurehead of the industrial military complex, its financiers and
    its not so secret "police".

    Look at the way the Media including CBS and I believe ABC have yeilded to
    the will of the current president. It took a white mother being
    murdered in
    Minneapolis in front of her spouse to raise a lot of flags. Look at
    what went on
    earlier at the Washington Post where the plutocratic owner fired
    anyone who
    was not in step with his editorial policy. Look at the crowd around
    the president
    which one of them does not have a Conferate axe to grind. Look at the attacks
    on transgender Americans and the removal of technicians who crossed the
    president's appearance including skin color and I talk about the
    Library of
    Congress most notable. The meaningless but deadly destruction of the
    Democratic Presidents' work and even Liberal Republicans like Nixon with
    the Clean Water Act and the USAIDS. I say meaningless because 50 seoarate
    treaties are being concluded with 50 Nations that were formerly
    serviced by
    USAIDS. They will be getting some billions of aid to take care of the former
    needs serviced by USAIDS. Of course it will go through the hands of the
    individual governments which looks like a great opportunity for graft.

    Earlier today I was given to understand that the owner of Estee Lauder a make-up and skin care firm with a great many other names is one of the
    people pushing him to seize Greenland.

    I am too tired to rattle on.
    Have a great night.
    bliss


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Scott Dorsey@3:633/10 to All on Sun Jan 18 11:11:51 2026
    In article <10khosd$346jd$3@dont-email.me>, Titus G <noone@nowhere.com> wrote: >On 18/01/26 11:25, Lawrence D?Oliveiro wrote:
    On Thu, 15 Jan 2026 08:31:52 -0800, Paul S Person wrote:

    And about due for another Warring States period.

    Which current authoritarian leader, notable for his doctrinaire and
    erratic ideas of Government, looks to be pushing his country to the
    brink of civil war?

    I can't imagine just one person being able and therefore responsible for
    such erratic behaviour perhaps leading to slaughter and sometimes
    genocide. There has to be sufficient political and media support behind
    the figurehead of the industrial military complex, its financiers and
    its not so secret "police".

    It doesn't take much to create that support, though it's not always the
    same. In the case of North Korea, Kim has a whole lot of people who have
    a vested interest in keeping the system the same and in keeping his family
    in power. It's not just Kim... Kim is replaceable and if he does anything
    too wrong he might get replaced with another family member. But it is
    very much a family affair.

    Papa Doc's arrangement looked similar at first, and he did in fact have
    his kid as successor, but he didn't have the infrastructure and he also
    didn't seem to understand that his country was not an infinite money sink.
    When all the money was pumped out and the land became infertile, everything collapsed and his family had to move to Miami (along with his rich friends
    but without all the people who had supported him).

    Putin... I don't think people are really sure about Putin. Clearly he
    remains in power because of all of the oligarchs whom he funded initially,
    but now that they are beginning to hurt, how long will they allow him to
    remain in power? I'm kind of surprised they haven't replaced him yet but nobody in the west really knows what is going on inside his government.

    Trump... Trump is not the problem, Trump is merely a symptom of the problem
    and in his first term he was surrounded with people who were trying to keep
    him from doing anything too crazy. In his second term, he seems to have surrounded himself with people who are encouraging him to do crazy things
    but it's hard to tell how much is his idea and how much are the ideas of
    his staff. (There are some people who claim that he is being controlled
    by Putin. It seems unlikely to me, but on the other hand what other motivation could he have for deliberately trying to destroy NATO?)

    What Trump is doing that the first two have not is to be totally random, throwing people off of any attempts to figure out his motivation for
    anything. Idi Amin was very good at this too, and might be a better model
    to study.

    What I find fascinating about Trump is that he has a very pre-WWI concept
    of diplomacy. He doesn't think about countries but about individual kings. Europe doesn't work that way and it seems to really confuse him.
    --scott
    --
    "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Scott Lurndal@3:633/10 to All on Sun Jan 18 16:29:22 2026
    kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) writes:
    In article <10khosd$346jd$3@dont-email.me>, Titus G <noone@nowhere.com> wrote:
    On 18/01/26 11:25, Lawrence D?Oliveiro wrote:
    On Thu, 15 Jan 2026 08:31:52 -0800, Paul S Person wrote:

    What I find fascinating about Trump is that he has a very pre-WWI concept
    of diplomacy. He doesn't think about countries but about individual kings. >Europe doesn't work that way and it seems to really confuse him.

    You're giving him far to much credit. He's simply in it for the graft.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Paul S Person@3:633/10 to All on Sun Jan 18 09:05:31 2026
    On Sat, 17 Jan 2026 22:25:11 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D?Oliveiro
    <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:

    On Thu, 15 Jan 2026 08:31:52 -0800, Paul S Person wrote:

    And about due for another Warring States period.

    Which current authoritarian leader, notable for his doctrinaire and
    erratic ideas of Government, looks to be pushing his country to the
    brink of civil war?

    When I first realized this, I was reading an article about the gap
    between what Peking said and what the local provincial authorities
    did.

    At one point, apparently, there were lawyers who, when their clients
    were being attacked in defiance of stated Policy, were able to call
    the central authorities and have the locals corrected.

    If that is still the case and disrespect for the central government
    grows, how long will it take before the central government is seen as irrelevant and each province behaves independently? And then how long
    until they start fighting each other for resources?

    The only change is that we may be moving into a similar phase in the
    USA. The level of propaganda from certain parts of the Federal
    Government is really getting out of hand. And their apparent
    unwillingness to recognize State's Rights will inevitably have an
    effect.

    The difference, of course, is that things could change next November
    in the USA. Changing them in China would be much harder.
    --
    "Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
    Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
    Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Paul S Person@3:633/10 to All on Sun Jan 18 09:10:17 2026
    On Sun, 18 Jan 2026 16:29:22 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
    wrote:

    kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) writes:
    In article <10khosd$346jd$3@dont-email.me>, Titus G
    <noone@nowhere.com> wrote:
    On 18/01/26 11:25, Lawrence D?Oliveiro wrote:
    On Thu, 15 Jan 2026 08:31:52 -0800, Paul S Person wrote:

    What I find fascinating about Trump is that he has a very pre-WWI
    concept
    of diplomacy. He doesn't think about countries but about individual
    kings.
    Europe doesn't work that way and it seems to really confuse him.

    You're giving him far to much credit. He's simply in it for the graft.

    I agree that Trump is being given too much credit.

    But I don't think he's in it for the graft. I think he is in it to see
    his name dominating /every single news outlet/, if not every single
    story. I don't think he has any plan at all beyond that.

    Some of those under him may, however.
    --
    "Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
    Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
    Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Christian Weisgerber@3:633/10 to All on Sun Jan 18 17:25:55 2026
    On 2026-01-18, Scott Dorsey <kludge@panix.com> wrote:

    What I find fascinating about Trump is that he has a very pre-WWI concept
    of diplomacy. He doesn't think about countries but about individual kings. Europe doesn't work that way and it seems to really confuse him.

    That confusion is very much mutual. Nobody here knows how to deal
    with a USA that is ruled by a capricious king.

    --
    Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Scott Dorsey@3:633/10 to All on Sun Jan 18 12:48:07 2026
    Scott Lurndal <slp53@pacbell.net> wrote:
    kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) writes:
    In article <10khosd$346jd$3@dont-email.me>, Titus G <noone@nowhere.com> wrote:
    On 18/01/26 11:25, Lawrence D?Oliveiro wrote:
    On Thu, 15 Jan 2026 08:31:52 -0800, Paul S Person wrote:

    What I find fascinating about Trump is that he has a very pre-WWI concept >>of diplomacy. He doesn't think about countries but about individual kings. >>Europe doesn't work that way and it seems to really confuse him.

    You're giving him far to much credit. He's simply in it for the graft.

    I didn't say he wasn't. But the way he views the world affects how he
    plans to get that graft. What worked for Kaiser Wilhelm is likely not
    to work today.
    --scott

    --
    "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Scott Dorsey@3:633/10 to All on Sun Jan 18 12:53:58 2026
    Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:

    At one point, apparently, there were lawyers who, when their clients
    were being attacked in defiance of stated Policy, were able to call
    the central authorities and have the locals corrected.

    If that is still the case and disrespect for the central government
    grows, how long will it take before the central government is seen as >irrelevant and each province behaves independently? And then how long
    until they start fighting each other for resources?

    This has always been the case, and it's one of the downsides of
    monarchies. You have to keep on top in order to keep power. The
    Chinese are experts at this. The central government works very hard
    at not being seen as irrelevant.... much harder than they work at
    actually being relevant. So I don't see warlordism coming back any
    time soon.

    Also, the Chinese have no real sense of history. They get told about
    the great history of China but most of what they get told is not really
    very accurate. People in China will talk about a 50-year-old building
    as being "ancient." There is so little in China actually left from
    before the Cultural Revolution that it is like a new country in some
    ways.

    The only change is that we may be moving into a similar phase in the
    USA. The level of propaganda from certain parts of the Federal
    Government is really getting out of hand. And their apparent
    unwillingness to recognize State's Rights will inevitably have an
    effect.

    Factionalism and regionalism is much more a problem in the US than in
    China. In China if you promote your local region over the national
    government, they put you into a camp. The US has not started doing
    this, at least not yet.
    --scott

    --
    "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Bobbie Sellers@3:633/10 to All on Sun Jan 18 10:02:38 2026


    On 1/18/26 08:29, Scott Lurndal wrote:
    kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) writes:
    In article <10khosd$346jd$3@dont-email.me>, Titus G <noone@nowhere.com> wrote:
    On 18/01/26 11:25, Lawrence D?Oliveiro wrote:
    On Thu, 15 Jan 2026 08:31:52 -0800, Paul S Person wrote:

    What I find fascinating about Trump is that he has a very pre-WWI concept
    of diplomacy. He doesn't think about countries but about individual kings. >> Europe doesn't work that way and it seems to really confuse him.

    You're giving him far to much credit. He's simply in it for the graft.

    But he is really confused. He has demonstrated that he has no idea of the proper role of a president in our constitutional republic nor do
    many of
    his followers. A childlike idea of power to be exercised at will.

    bliss


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Lawrence D?Oliveiro@3:633/10 to All on Sun Jan 18 21:14:28 2026
    On Sun, 18 Jan 2026 12:53:58 -0500 (EST), Scott Dorsey wrote:

    This has always been the case, and it's one of the downsides of
    monarchies.

    It?s been amusing and slightly mystifying, to see the preoccupation in
    the USA with ?kings?, and avoiding coming under their reach. Those of
    us who stayed in the British Empire found a way to keep the king under
    control, by setting up a Constitutional Monarchy. Meanwhile, the USA
    seems to be falling under the sway of a dictator, almost without
    realizing it.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Dimensional Traveler@3:633/10 to All on Sun Jan 18 21:38:53 2026
    On 1/18/2026 1:14 PM, Lawrence D?Oliveiro wrote:
    On Sun, 18 Jan 2026 12:53:58 -0500 (EST), Scott Dorsey wrote:

    This has always been the case, and it's one of the downsides of
    monarchies.

    It?s been amusing and slightly mystifying, to see the preoccupation in
    the USA with ?kings?, and avoiding coming under their reach. Those of
    us who stayed in the British Empire found a way to keep the king under control, by setting up a Constitutional Monarchy. Meanwhile, the USA
    seems to be falling under the sway of a dictator, almost without
    realizing it.

    Oh, most of it realize it, the problem is too many Americans WANT it.

    --
    I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
    dirty old man.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Bobbie Sellers@3:633/10 to All on Sun Jan 18 22:19:12 2026


    On 1/18/26 21:38, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
    On 1/18/2026 1:14 PM, Lawrence D?Oliveiro wrote:
    On Sun, 18 Jan 2026 12:53:58 -0500 (EST), Scott Dorsey wrote:

    This has always been the case, and it's one of the downsides of
    monarchies.

    It?s been amusing and slightly mystifying, to see the preoccupation in
    the USA with ?kings?, and avoiding coming under their reach. Those of
    us who stayed in the British Empire found a way to keep the king under
    control, by setting up a Constitutional Monarchy. Meanwhile, the USA
    seems to be falling under the sway of a dictator, almost without
    realizing it.

    Oh, most of it realize it, the problem is too many Americans WANT it.

    Exactly my feeling on the matter. A dictator removes individual
    responsibility for acts that are unconstitutional and vicious. Look at
    ICE,
    a poorly trained and vetted Federal police force that murders Americans
    as well as other legal residents.

    I have written to my legislators in regard to this matter and hope
    they can make progress into treating this boil on the USA's derriere. I hope that some Republican voters will do the same with their representatives.

    bliss

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Lawrence D?Oliveiro@3:633/10 to All on Mon Jan 19 07:31:44 2026
    On Sun, 18 Jan 2026 22:19:12 -0800, Bobbie Sellers wrote:

    I have written to my legislators in regard to this matter and hope
    they can make progress into treating this boil on the USA's
    derriere. I hope that some Republican voters will do the same with
    their representatives.

    That?s assuming your checks and balances still work. The ease with
    which this dicator and his cohorts have managed to sweep them aside
    does not bode well.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Dimensional Traveler@3:633/10 to All on Mon Jan 19 08:24:17 2026
    On 1/18/2026 11:31 PM, Lawrence D?Oliveiro wrote:
    On Sun, 18 Jan 2026 22:19:12 -0800, Bobbie Sellers wrote:

    I have written to my legislators in regard to this matter and hope
    they can make progress into treating this boil on the USA's
    derriere. I hope that some Republican voters will do the same with
    their representatives.

    That?s assuming your checks and balances still work. The ease with
    which this dicator and his cohorts have managed to sweep them aside
    does not bode well.

    Its not so much that they have been swept aside as they are willing
    flunkys. Plus various elements have been working for this for around 50 years.

    --
    I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
    dirty old man.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)