That was the story with the American Revolution which was our first
uncivil war where the Loyalists were persecuted by the Patriots and vice >versa. Neighbors killed neighbors over this little political disagreement.
On a reread of the series years ago, I was struck by how much better FE
is written than the earlier works. Better written but not as much fun.
As you note, Asimov didn't really want to write it, and perhaps that >accounts for a certain amount of that loss of fun SF exuberance.
On Sat, 17 Jan 2026 16:29:40 -0000 (UTC), Don wrote:
Wars and rumors of war are foretold by Saint Matthew the Apostle.
Wow, it?s like nobody else thought that wars would happen ...
On 1/18/2026 1:14 PM, Lawrence D?Oliveiro wrote:
On Sun, 18 Jan 2026 12:53:58 -0500 (EST), Scott Dorsey wrote:
This has always been the case, and it's one of the downsides of
monarchies.
It?s been amusing and slightly mystifying, to see the preoccupation in
the USA with ?kings?, and avoiding coming under their reach. Those of
us who stayed in the British Empire found a way to keep the king under
control, by setting up a Constitutional Monarchy. Meanwhile, the USA
seems to be falling under the sway of a dictator, almost without
realizing it.
Oh, most of it realize it, the problem is too many Americans WANT it.
The phrase that?s missing here is ?multiparty democracy??. Can you have
a real democracy with a realistic choice of only two parties, where
every contest is seen as a zero-sum game? And with so much political >interference in the election process?
I think the US is an outstanding example as to why the answer is no?.
Let me offer South Korea as a remarkable recent example: where an
attempt at instituting a dictatorship was thwarted within just hours.
The President tried to suspend the National Assembly (Parliament),
only to have the Assembly members defy him by turning up for work
anyway (in the middle of the night!). He had ordered the military to
stop them from meeting, by force if necessary, but the soldiers had no >stomach for shooting their fellow citizens. And so the coup collapsed.
You know the old saying ?the price of liberty is eternal vigilance??.
In this case, vigilance worked.
On Sun, 18 Jan 2026 21:38:53 -0800, Dimensional Traveler
<dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
On 1/18/2026 1:14 PM, Lawrence D?Oliveiro wrote:
On Sun, 18 Jan 2026 12:53:58 -0500 (EST), Scott Dorsey wrote:
This has always been the case, and it's one of the downsides of
monarchies.
It?s been amusing and slightly mystifying, to see the preoccupation in
the USA with ?kings?, and avoiding coming under their reach. Those of
us who stayed in the British Empire found a way to keep the king under
control, by setting up a Constitutional Monarchy. Meanwhile, the USA
seems to be falling under the sway of a dictator, almost without
realizing it.
Oh, most of it realize it, the problem is too many Americans WANT it.
Which if proof was needed demonstrates that Obama and Biden
(especially the latter) simply went too far.
On Mon, 19 Jan 2026 23:44:30 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D?Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
The phrase that??s missing here is ??multiparty democracy??. Can you have >> a real democracy with a realistic choice of only two parties, where
every contest is seen as a zero-sum game? And with so much political
interference in the election process?
I think the US is an outstanding example as to why the answer is no?.
Catch is you either have a 2 party state or a multi-party state. Which
would you prefer - the present US situation where the parties are both deserting the center or the British situation where you have a party
in power where they have managed to dig themselves a pit, fallen into
it and yet are still guaranteed 4 more years of power - and the
opposition parties as much at war with each other as they are with
Labour.
Because even in the last year of Biden there was little or no talk of policies remotely in the center. My reaction to the second Biden
debate (which I watched live) was "here I thought Biden had a good
chance - but after tonight this is going to be a defeat of epic
proportions". And I wasn't sure whether his policies or his mental
acuity was his worst problem.
On 2/7/2026 11:38 AM, The Horny Goat wrote:
On Sun, 18 Jan 2026 21:38:53 -0800, Dimensional Traveler
<dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
On 1/18/2026 1:14 PM, Lawrence D?Oliveiro wrote:
On Sun, 18 Jan 2026 12:53:58 -0500 (EST), Scott Dorsey wrote:
This has always been the case, and it's one of the downsides of
monarchies.
It?s been amusing and slightly mystifying, to see the preoccupation in >>>> the USA with ?kings?, and avoiding coming under their reach. Those of
us who stayed in the British Empire found a way to keep the king under >>>> control, by setting up a Constitutional Monarchy. Meanwhile, the USA
seems to be falling under the sway of a dictator, almost without
realizing it.
Oh, most of it realize it, the problem is too many Americans WANT it.
Which if proof was needed demonstrates that Obama and Biden
(especially the latter) simply went too far.
No, not really.˙ It just means that there are/were a lot more racist, religious fanatics out there than many people were willing to believe.
(In 1941 following Pearl Harbor the Canadian parliament WAS in session
and actually declared war on Japan BEFORE the United States due to the
prime minister convening the meeting of parliament, and immediately
called for a vote before any debate - as opposed to the US Congress
where several Reps and Senators insisted on making speeches before the
vote (which everyone expected to be unanimous. Obviously nobody in
Canada expected the US NOT to go to war after Pearl Harbor))
No, not really. It just means that there are/were a lot more racist, >religious fanatics out there than many people were willing to believe.
On 2/7/26 11:47, The Horny Goat wrote:democracy??. Can you have
On Mon, 19 Jan 2026 23:44:30 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D?Oliveiro
<ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
The phrase that?s missing here is ?multiparty
a real democracy with a realistic choice of only two parties, where
every contest is seen as a zero-sum game? And with so much political
interference in the election process?
I think the US is an outstanding example as to why the answer is no?.
Catch is you either have a 2 party state or a multi-party state. Which
would you prefer - the present US situation where the parties are both
deserting the center or the British situation where you have a party
in power where they have managed to dig themselves a pit, fallen into
it and yet are still guaranteed 4 more years of power - and the
opposition parties as much at war with each other as they are with
Labour.
Because even in the last year of Biden there was little or no talk of
policies remotely in the center. My reaction to the second Biden
debate (which I watched live) was "here I thought Biden had a good
chance - but after tonight this is going to be a defeat of epic
proportions". And I wasn't sure whether his policies or his mental
acuity was his worst problem.
But Biden did not run. Kamala Harris was the Democratic candidate
and started late to finish last which was not her fault at all.
Thelimitations
consequences
are terrible for the USA. Which was already with the removal of
on contributions to Political Parties and Candidates pointing itself tothe
obsolescence of its power.
Before that the pretence of Representative Democracy was removed
in ther 1920s in limiting the number of Representatives of the American >People at 435 regardless of our massive population increases.
When the radical religious right seized control of the Supreme Court
of the USA it may have dealt a fatal blow to the liberalizations of the >Social Order which have happened since World War II.
The choice by the people of the present leader is unfortunate fordisagrees
many reasons foremost in my minds the rejection of science that
with the profits of many who must hate the generations which may come.
I am 88 yoa and was born in a freer time but amid rumors of war
and now we have a leader in the USA, others in Russia and China who
are on the verge of creating chaos.
On Mon, 19 Jan 2026 23:44:30 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D?Oliveiro ><ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:democracy??. Can you have
The phrase that?s missing here is ?multiparty
a real democracy with a realistic choice of only two parties, where
every contest is seen as a zero-sum game? And with so much political >>interference in the election process?
I think the US is an outstanding example as to why the answer is no?.
Catch is you either have a 2 party state or a multi-party state. Which
would you prefer - the present US situation where the parties are both >deserting the center or the British situation where you have a party
in power where they have managed to dig themselves a pit, fallen into
it and yet are still guaranteed 4 more years of power - and the
opposition parties as much at war with each other as they are with
Labour.
Because even in the last year of Biden there was little or no talk of >policies remotely in the center. My reaction to the second Biden
debate (which I watched live) was "here I thought Biden had a good
chance - but after tonight this is going to be a defeat of epic
proportions". And I wasn't sure whether his policies or his mental
acuity was his worst problem.
Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:but
No, not really. It just means that there are/were a lot more racist, >>religious fanatics out there than many people were willing to believe.
That certainly is true. It's not necessarily the fundamental problem
it certainly came as a surprise to many people in my generation whothought
we had got mostly past all that craziness.
On Sat, 17 Jan 2026 22:23:08 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D?Oliveiro ><ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
On Sat, 17 Jan 2026 16:29:40 -0000 (UTC), Don wrote:
Wars and rumors of war are foretold by Saint Matthew the Apostle.
Wow, it?s like nobody else thought that wars would happen ...
My immediate reaction to that lne was "Matthew couldn't possibly have
been the first to say something like that!"
On Sat, 7 Feb 2026 13:57:50 -0800, Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> wrote:
[quoted text muted]
proportions". And I wasn't sure whether his policies or his mental
acuity was his worst problem.
But Biden did not run. Kamala Harris was the Democratic candidate
and started late to finish last which was not her fault at all.
Yes, the Democrats really exceeded themselves in 2024 in their
eagerness to lose.
On Mon, 19 Jan 2026 23:44:30 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D?Oliveiro wrote:
The phrase that?s missing here is ?multiparty democracy?. Can you
have a real democracy with a realistic choice of only two parties,
where every contest is seen as a zero-sum game? And with so much
political interference in the election process?
I think the US is an outstanding example as to why the answer is ?no?.
Catch is you either have a 2 party state or a multi-party state.
Which would you prefer - the present US situation where the parties
are both deserting the center or the British situation where you
have a party in power where they have managed to dig themselves a
pit, fallen into it and yet are still guaranteed 4 more years of
power - and the opposition parties as much at war with each other as
they are with Labour.
| Sysop: | Tetrazocine |
|---|---|
| Location: | Melbourne, VIC, Australia |
| Users: | 15 |
| Nodes: | 8 (0 / 8) |
| Uptime: | 249:26:06 |
| Calls: | 207 |
| Files: | 21,502 |
| Messages: | 83,512 |