On 2/9/2026 9:59 PM, a425couple wrote:
Could someone please search for my post about "starglider" ?
Please search this group, or perhaps alt.astronomy
Starglider is a space ship controlled by artificial intelligence
sent out to explore and create relationships.ÿ It was described
by Arthur C. Clarke in his "Fountains of Paradise".
Yeah, I am very limited, and my technology is also.
Probably over 2 years ago, but after probably after
2010.
I'd appreciate seeing again what I wrote, so
if some kind soul could post my entire past posts
as a follow up to this, I'd appreciate it.
Thank You, a425couple@hotmail.com
a425couple
unread,
Jan 15, 2019, 5:16:46?PM
to
from
https://www.haaretz.com/world-news/.premium.MAGAZINE-if-true-this-could-be-one-of-the-greatest-discoveries-in-human-history-1.6828318
(The graphics can be seen at the citation and they add information.)
(Hmmmm, unlike Rama, or Starglider, this one is not clear.)
If True, This Could Be One of the Greatest Discoveries in Human History
The head of Harvard's astronomy department says what others are afraid
to say about a peculiar object that entered the solar system
By Oded Carmeli Jan 14, 2019
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?I don?t care what people say,? asserts Avi Loeb, chairman of Harvard University?s astronomy department and author of one of the most
controversial articles in the realm of science last year (and also one
of the most popular in the general media). ?It doesn?t matter to me,? he continues. ?I say what I think, and if the broad public takes an
interest in what I say, that?s a welcome result as far as I?m concerned,
but an indirect result. Science isn?t like politics: It is not based on popularity polls.?
Prof. Abraham Loeb, 56, was born in Beit Hanan, a moshav in central
Israel, and studied physics at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem as
part of the Israel Defense Forces? Talpiot program for recruits who
demonstrate outstanding academic ability. Freeman Dyson, the theoretical physicist, and the late astrophysicist John Bahcall admitted Loeb to the Institute for Advanced Study in Princeton, whose past faculty members
included Albert Einstein and J. Robert Oppenheimer. In 2012, Time
magazine named Loeb one of the 25 most influential people in the field
of space. He has won prizes, written books and published 700 articles in
the world?s leading scientific journals. Last October, Loeb and his postdoctoral student Shmuel Bialy, also an Israeli, published an article
in the scientific outlet ?The Astrophysical Journal Letters,? which
seriously raised the possibility that an intelligent species of aliens
had sent a spaceship to Earth.
The ?spaceship? in question is called Oumuamua. For those who don?t keep
up with space news, Oumuamua is the first object in history to pass
through the solar system and be identified as definitely originating
outside of it. The first interstellar guest came to us from the
direction of Vega, the brightest star in the Lyra constellation, which
is 26 light-years from us. In the 1997 film ?Contact,? it?s the star
from which the radio signal is sent to Jodie Foster.
Oumuamua was actually discovered by a Canadian astronomer, Robert Weryk,
using the Pan-STARRS telescope at the Haleakala Observatory in Hawaii. ?Oumuamua? is Hawaiian for ?first distant messenger? ? in a word,
?scout.? It was discovered on October 19, 2017, suspiciously close to
Earth (relatively speaking, of course: Oumuamua was 33 million
kilometers away from us when it was sighted ? 85 times farther than the
moon is from Earth).
Whereas all the planets, asteroids and meteors that originate within the
solar system more or less circle what is called the Ecliptic plane, that
of our sun, since they were formed from the same disc of gas and dust
that rotated around itself, Oumuamua entered the solar system north of
the plane, in an extreme hyperbolic orbit and at a speed of 26.3
kilometers per second faster relative to the motion of the sun.
A reconstruction of its trajectory shows that Oumuamua traversed the
ecliptic plane on September 6, 2017, when the sun?s gravity accelerated
the object to a velocity of 87.8 kilometers per second. On September 9,
the object passed closer to the sun than the orbit of Mercury. And on
October 14, five days before it was discovered in Hawaii, the object
passed 24.18 million kilometers away from Earth, or 62 times the
distance from here to the moon.
What does it feel like to sit next to colleagues in a university
lunchroom a day after publishing an article arguing that Oumuamua may
actually be a reconnaissance spaceship?
Loeb: ?The article I published was written, in part, on the basis of conversations I had with colleagues whom I respect scientifically.
Scientists of senior status said themselves that this object was
peculiar but were apprehensive about making their thoughts public. I
don?t understand that. After all, academic tenure is intended to give scientists the freedom to take risks without having to worry about their
jobs. Unfortunately, most scientists achieve tenure ? and go on tending
to their image. As children we ask ourselves about the world, we allow ourselves to err. Ego doesn?t play a part. We learn about the world with innocence and honesty. As a scientist, you?re supposed to enjoy the
privilege of being able to continue your childhood. Not to worry about
the ego, but about uncovering the truth. Especially after you get tenure.?
Without tenure you wouldn?t have published the article?
?I suppose not. It?s not just the tenure. I?m head of the astronomy
department, and founding director of the Black Hole Initiative [an interdisciplinary center at Harvard dedicated to the study of black
holes]. In addition, I?m director of the Board on Physics and Astronomy
of the National Academies. So it could be that I?m committing image
suicide, if this turns out to be incorrect. On the other hand, if it
turns out to be correct, it?s one of the greatest discoveries in human
history. For us to make progress in understanding the universe, we need
to be credible, and the only way to be credible is to follow what you
see, not yourself. Besides, what?s the worst thing that can happen to
me? I?ll be relieved of my administrative duties? This will bring the
benefit that I?ll have more time for science.?
?Gravitational pushes?
The first friend from another solar system stirred great excitement
among scientists, but its form and behavior also raised multiple questions.
?It was subjected to observation, but not enough,? Loeb told me with disappointment, when I met with him in Tel Aviv at the end of December.
?It was only under consecutive observation for six days, from October 25
to 31 ? namely, a week after its discovery. At first they said, Okay,
it?s a comet ? but no comet tail was visible. Comets are made of ice,
which evaporates as the comet approaches the sun. But we didn?t see a
trail of gas or dust in Oumuamua. So the thinking was that it must be an asteroid ? simply a chunk of stone. But the object rotated on its axis
for eight hours, and during that time its brightness changed by a factor
of 10, whereas the brightness of all the asteroids that we?re familiar
with changes, at most, by a factor of three. If we assume that the light reflection is constant, that means its length is at least 10 times
greater than its thickness.
?There are two possibilities in regard to this extreme geometry,? Loeb continues. ?One is that it?s in the shape of a cigar, the other than it
has the shape of a pancake. The truth is that the same observers who
examined Oumuamua?s light variation reached the conclusion that if it
receives a lot of gravitational pushes during the voyage ? which is
reasonable, because it spent a lot of time in interstellar space ? its
shape is pancake-flat. Subsequently additional qualities were
discovered, such as its origin.?
I wrote above that Oumuamua originated at Vega, but that?s not
completely accurate: The universe is a vast place, and even at
Oumuamua?s velocity ? a velocity that no human spaceship has achieved ?
a voyage from Vega to the solar system would take 600,000 years. But in
the meantime, Vega is orbiting the center of the Milky Way, like the sun
and all the other stars, and it wasn?t in that region of the heavens
600,000 years ago.
?If you average the velocities of all the stars in the region,? Loeb
explains, ?you get a system that?s called the ?local standard of rest.? Oumuamua was at rest relative to that system. It didn?t come to us. It
waited in place, like a buoy on the surface of the ocean, until the
?ship? of the solar system ran into it. To make things clear, only one
of 500 stars in the system is as much at rest as Oumuamua. The
probability of that is very low. After all, if it were a stone that was
simply hurled from a different solar system, we would expect it to have
the velocity of its star system, not the average velocity of all the
thousands of stars in the vicinity.?
However, the biggest surprise came last June, when new data from the
Hubble Space Telescope showed that the mysterious object had accelerated
during its visit to the inner solar system in 2017 ? an acceleration
that is not explained by the sun?s force of gravity.
Acceleration of that sort can be explained by the rocket effect of
comets: The comet approaches the sun, the sun warms the ice of the comet
and the ice escapes into space in the form of gas, an emission that
makes the comet accelerate like a rocket. But the observations did not
reveal a comet tail behind Oumuamua. Moreover, gas emission would have
brought about a rapid change in the rate of the object?s spin, a change
which was also not observed in practice, and it also might have torn the
object apart.
If it wasn?t comet outgassing, what force caused Oumuamua to accelerate?
It is precisely here where Loeb enters the picture. According to his calculations, Oumuamua?s acceleration was caused by a push.
?The only hypothesis I could think of,? he relates, ?is a push from
solar radiation pressure. For that to work, the object would have to be
very thin, less than a millimeter thick, in other words a type of
pancake. In addition, the Spitzer Space Telescope found no evidence of
heat emission from the object, and that means that it is at least 10
times more reflective than a typical comet or asteroid. What we have,
then, is a thin, flat, shiny object. So I arrived at the idea of a solar
sail: A solar sail is a spaceship that uses the sun for propulsion.
Instead of using fuel, it is propelled ahead by reflecting light. In
fact, it?s a technology that our civilization is developing at this very
time.?
Bottles in space
Avi Loeb definitely knows a thing or two about solar sails. In 2016, the physicist and venture capitalist Yuri Milner, together with Stephen
Hawking, Mark Zuckerberg and others, established Breakthrough Starshot,
an initiative to accelerate solar sails to one-fifth the speed of light
in order to explore the neighboring solar system, Alpha Centauri, which
is four light-years away from us. Loeb was appointed the project?s
scientific director.
?The first question we asked is whether a sail like Oumuamua could
survive billions of years in the Milky Way ? and we discovered that it
could. Being hit by interstellar dust or gas won?t wear it down.
Afterward, we tried to calculate the acceleration a solar sail would
cause in an object [such as a ship or probe], and we found that the acceleration is consistent with that of Oumuamua.
?We have no way of knowing whether it?s active technology, or a
spaceship that is no longer operative and is continuing to float in
space. But if Oumuamua was created together with a whole population of
similar objects that were launched randomly, the fact that we discovered
it means that its creators launched a quadrillion probes like it to
every star in the Milky Way. Of course, the randomness is significantly
reduced if we assume that Oumuamua was a reconnaissance mission that was deliberately sent to the inner solar system ? namely, to the habitable
region where life would be feasible. But we need to remember that
humanity didn?t broadcast anything tens of thousands of years ago, when
the object was still in interstellar space. They didn?t know there was intelligent life here. Which is why I think it?s just a fishing expedition.?
Fishing for what?
?I don?t know. I love walking along the seashore when I?m on vacation,
like here in Tel Aviv, and looking at the seashells with my daughters. Occasionally we find a glass bottle among the shells. In my opinion, the ?bottle? needs to be investigated. Until now we were looking for
signatures of alien cultures in radio broadcasts, because we developed
that technology in the last century. But another way is to look for a
message in a bottle. Humanity launched Voyager 1 and 2, which are
already in interstellar space. They?re messages in bottles. And in this
century there will be a great many systems to which a great many bottles
will be sent, and at far greater velocities.?
Like Breakthrough Starshot?
?Exactly. Our goal is to accelerate solar sails to one-fifth the speed
of light, so that they will reach Alpha Centauri within 20 years. And
the reason is clear: I am 56 years old, and Yuri Milner is 57. At that
speed we will be able to see the pictures in our lifetime. Of course,
the sails will continue on their way long after Milner and I are no
longer around, maybe after none of us will still be here. It?s possible
that space is filled with sails like these and we just don?t see them.
We only saw Oumuamua because this is the first time we?ve had technology
that?s sensitive enough to identify objects of a few dozen to hundreds
of meters in size from the illumination of the sun. In three years, the building of the LSST telescope will be completed. It will be far more
sensitive than Pan-STARRS and certainly we will see many more objects
that originate outside the solar system. Then we?ll find out whether
Oumuamua is an anomaly or not.
?The importance of my article lies in attracting the attention of
astronomers so that they will use the best telescopes and look for the
next object, and will even plan an encounter with it in space. The
current propulsion technology doesn?t offer us the possibility to chase
after Oumuamua. The visitor comes for dinner, goes out into the street
and disappears in the dark. It?s possible we will never know what it was looking for.?
But the project Breakthrough Listen used a radio telescope and listened
to Oumuamua with amazing sensitivity, to the point of being able to
receive a call from a regular mobile phone, from within the object. But
we heard nothing.
The story of 'Oumuamua - ???
?When I suggested to Milner that we listen to Oumuamua, back in November
2017, we knew that the chance of picking up something was poor to
nonexistent. Because even if a signal had been sent, it wouldn?t
necessarily have been sent in our direction ? it would be in the form of
a ray. In other words, even if this explorer broadcast back to its
operators, we wouldn?t necessarily have seen that. We also wouldn?t know
which frequency it was broadcasting on. And it?s also possible that it
wasn?t broadcasting all the time, but only at particular times. And
maybe there?s no longer anyone for it to broadcast to.?
Okay, this object was silent, but if they?re out there, why haven?t we
heard any radio signals directed at us? We?ve been listening to the
expanses of space for decades and hearing only the blood pounding in our
ears.
?If to judge by our own behavior, it seems to me that the likeliest
explanation is that civilizations develop the technologies that destroy
them. There?s a length of time during which a culture is still careful ?
for example, not to get into a nuclear war. But consider that if the
Nazis had developed nuclear weapons, human history might have led to
mass destruction. And there are, of course, asteroids and there?s global warming and plenty of other dangers. The technological window of
opportunity might be very small. Sails like these are launched, but they
no longer have anyone to broadcast back to.?
?We are primitive?
In other words, to Enrico Fermi?s paradox ? ?Where is everybody? ? you
reply: ?Dead.?
?Definitely. Most of them. Our approach should be an archaeological one.
In the same way we dig in the ground to find cultures that no longer
exist, we must dig in space in order to discover civilizations that
existed outside the planet Earth.?
Isn?t it easier, and therefore more scientific, to assume that we are
alone until it?s proved otherwise?
?No. Anyone who claims that we are unique and special is guilty of
arrogance. My premise is cosmic modesty. Today, thanks to the Kepler
Space Telescope, we know that there are more planets like Earth than
there are grains of sand on all the shores of all the seas. Imagine a
king who manages to seize control of a piece of another country in a
horrific battle, and who then thinks of himself as a great, omnipotent
ruler. And then imagine that he succeeds in seizing control of all the
land, or of the entire world: It would be like an ant that has wrapped
its feelers around one grain of sand on a vast seashore. It?s
meaningless. I assume that we are not the only ants on the shore, that
we are not alone.?
That?s speculation. You don?t know that for certain.
?The search for extraterrestrial life is not speculation. It?s a lot
less speculative than the assumption that there is dark matter ?
invisible matter that constitutes 85 percent of the material in the
universe. The dark matter hypothesis is part of the mainstream of
astrophysics ? and it is speculation. Life [elsewhere] in the universe
is not speculation, for two reasons: (a) We exist on Earth; and (b)
There are a great many more places that have physical conditions similar
to Earth. Science contains many examples of hypotheses that haven?t yet
been borne out by observations, because science progresses on a basis of anomalies, on a basis of phenomena that aren?t amenable to conventional explanations.?
But there?s a vast difference between the search for dark matter and the
search for extraterrestrial life. You wouldn?t have been interviewed on
?Good Morning America? about an article dealing with dark matter.
?Because there?s extensive science-fiction literature about contact with advanced civilizations, and not about dark matter. So what? Most
scientists talk about a search for primitive life, but there?s a taboo
on the search for intelligent life. Maybe I don?t understand that. After
all, the only place where primitive life exists, namely Earth, also has intelligent life ? if we?re actually intelligent. Our science is not
healthy. I asked a scientist who?s researching objects in the Kuiper
belt, a senior astronomer who discovered a large number of the objects
there, if he had discovered changes in their brightness originating in artificial light. He replied, ?Why search? There?s nothing to search
for, it?s clear that their brightness will change like light that?s
reflected back naturally from the sun.?
?If you?re not ready to find exceptional things, you won?t discover
them. Of course, every argument needs to be based on evidence, but if
the evidence points to an anomaly, we need to talk about an anomaly. Who
cares if this anomaly appeared or did not appear in science-fiction
books? I don?t even like science fiction.?
A raw, telescopic image of Oumuamua. The first visitor in history from
outside our solar system? ESO / O.Hainaut
Come on, now. You don?t like science fiction?
?No. When I read a book that contradicts the laws of nature, it bothers
me. I like literature and I like science, but the combination bothers me.?
So as a boy you didn?t read ?Rendezvous with Rama? by Arthur C. Clarke?
Because it really recalls the encounter with Oumuamua.
?No. What occupied me were the basic problems of life.?
The origin of life? Its distribution in the universe?
?Life itself, our life as human beings. I read books of philosophy,
mainly existentialism. I was born in a moshav, and every afternoon I
collected eggs and on weekends I would drive the tractor into the hills,
to read there. I loved nature. I liked being alone. I don?t have a
footprint on the social networks. I think of ideas when I?m alone in the shower. And I never thought about being famous. I wrote a scientific
article that was published in a scientific journal. I didn?t even issue
a press release. Two bloggers found the article in an archive, and it
went viral.?
And how did you feel about being a viral scientist? The report about
your piece was obviously the most popular space article in the past year.
?I took advantage of the media exposure to explain the uncertainty of
the scientific process. The populist movements in the United States and
Europe rest in part on the fact that the public has lost faith in the scientific process. That?s why people deny global warming, for example.
One of my interviewers in Germany said, ?There are scientists who
maintain that it?s a mistake to go public when you?re not yet certain.?
Those scientists think that if we reveal situations of uncertainty, we
won?t be believed when we talk about climate change. But the lack of credibility is due precisely to the fact that we show the public only
the final product. If a group of scientists closet themselves in a room,
and then emerge to deliver a lecture on the result as though to
students, people won?t believe them ? because they won?t have seen the
doubts, they won?t have seen that there weren?t enough data in the
earlier stages.
?The right way is to persuade the public that the scientific process is
a normal human activity, that it?s no different from what a police
detective does or a plumber who comes to fix a drainpipe. Scientists are considered an elite, because they themselves create that ivory tower artificially. They say, ?The public doesn?t understand, so there?s no
need to share with them. We?ll decide among ourselves what?s right, and
then we?ll tell the politicians what needs to be done.? But then the
populist politician says, ?Only the elite say that, they are hiding
other things from us.? Because there?s a leap to the stage of
conclusions and policy. The differences of opinion in the scientific
community are what lend humanity to the scientific process, and humanity
lends credibility.?
If we do actually discover that we?re not alone in the universe, what
effect would that discovery have on our life, do you think?
?A huge effect. They will probably be more advanced than we are, given
that our technology developed only recently. We will be able to learn a
great deal from them, about technologies that were developed across
millions and billions of years. And it could be that this is the reason
we haven?t yet identified extraterrestrial intelligent life: because we
are still primitive life that doesn?t know how to read the signs. As
soon as we leave the solar system, I believe we will see a great deal of traffic out there. Possibly we?ll get a message that says, ?Welcome to
the interstellar club.? Or we?ll discover multiple dead civilizations ?
that is, we?ll find their remains.?
And that will be the good news? Because, if there are a lot of
civilizations more developed than ours that were liquidated or that
liquidated themselves, that?s not a good sign for the future.
?It will be an excellent sign. It will give us second thoughts about
what we are doing here and now, so that we will not share the same fate.
We need to comport ourselves much more decently and less militantly with
one another, to cooperate, to prevent climate change and to settle in
space. That should lead to a good place. The basic question is whether
people are good, at the foundation.?
And what?s the answer, in your view?
?I believe they are. As soon as it becomes clear that there really have
been many civilizations that have become extinct, I believe that people
will learn the right lesson. And if we discover remnants of advanced technologies, they will prove to us that we are only at the start of the
road; and that if we don?t continue down that road, we will miss a great
deal of what there is to see and experience in the universe. Imagine if
cavemen had been shown the smartphone you?re using to record me. What
would they have thought about this special rock? Now imagine that
Oumuamua is the iPhone, and we are the cavemen. Imagine scientists who
are considered the visionaries of reason among the cavemen looking at
the device and saying, ?No, it?s just a rock. A special rock, but a
rock. Where do you come off claiming it?s not a rock???
Oded Carmeli
Haaretz Contributor
a425couple's profile photo
a425couple
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Jan 16, 2019, 10:40:51?PM
to
On 1/15/2019 3:15 PM, a425couple wrote:
from
https://www.haaretz.com/world-news/.premium.MAGAZINE-if-true-this-could-be-one-of-the-greatest-discoveries-in-human-history-1.6828318
If True, This Could Be One of the Greatest Discoveries in Human History
The head of Harvard's astronomy department says what others are afraid
to say about a peculiar object that entered the solar system
(He claims
seriously raised the possibility that an intelligent species of
aliens had sent a spaceship to Earth.
The ?spaceship? in question is called Oumuamua.
But then, on the other hand,
google the below
1st Interstellar Visitor Oumuamus is Actually not that Special.
David Johnston's profile photo
David Johnston
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Jan 17, 2019, 12:05:34?AM
to
On 2019-01-15 4:15 p.m., a425couple wrote:
from
https://www.haaretz.com/world-news/.premium.MAGAZINE-if-true-this-could-be-one-of-the-greatest-discoveries-in-human-history-1.6828318
(The graphics can be seen at the citation and they add information.)
(Hmmmm, unlike Rama, or Starglider, this one is not clear.)
If True, This Could Be One of the Greatest Discoveries in Human History
The head of Harvard's astronomy department says what others are afraid
to say about a peculiar object that entered the solar system
We know it's a spaceship because like all spaceships, it looks like a
banana.
Kevrob's profile photo
Kevrob
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Jan 17, 2019, 10:13:46?AM
to
Some of them look like pregnamt Frisbees.
Kevin R
Dorothy J Heydt's profile photo
Dorothy J Heydt
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Jan 17, 2019, 11:10:09?AM
to
In article <
q1lpj...@news2.newsguy.com>,
a425couple <
a425c...@hotmail.com> wrote:
from
If True, This Could Be One of the Greatest Discoveries in Human History
<Spartan ephors>
"If."
</Spartan ephors>
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
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