xkcd: Electric Vehicles
https://www.xkcd.com/3214/
Me too. Not until the batteries can go a few thousand miles in my
F-150 4x4 truck without charging.
Where are my Heinlein Shipstones ? We need these desperately.
Explained at:
https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/3214:_Electric_Vehicles
Lynn
Not until they make a proper manual / stick-shift electric car ...
which will never hapen, so I'll never be buying a silly electric
car.
On Wed, 4 Mar 2026 10:23:25 +1300, Your Name wrote:
Not until they make a proper manual / stick-shift electric car ...
which will never hapen, so I'll never be buying a silly electric
car.
Not sure why that's necessary.
Lawrence =?iso-8859-13?q?D=FFOliveiro?= <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
On Wed, 4 Mar 2026 10:23:25 +1300, Your Name wrote:
Not until they make a proper manual / stick-shift electric car ...
which will never hapen, so I'll never be buying a silly electric
car.
Not sure why that's necessary.
Don't worry, the British are working on it. Morgan showed a 4/4 with an induction motor that had a relatively limited speed range, going into
a Getrag six-speed. Very very British. If they can just make it leak oil, they will have a good market.
--scott
On 3/3/2026 4:27 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
Lawrence =?iso-8859-13?q?D=FFOliveiro?=˙ <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
On Wed, 4 Mar 2026 10:23:25 +1300, Your Name wrote:
Not until they make a proper manual / stick-shift electric car ...
which will never hapen, so I'll never be buying a silly electric
car.
Not sure why that's necessary.
Don't worry, the British are working on it.˙ Morgan showed a 4/4 with an
induction motor that had a relatively limited speed range, going into
a Getrag six-speed.˙ Very very British.˙ If they can just make it leak
oil,
they will have a good market.
--scott
You forgot the British vehicle eating batteries and alternators /
generators on alternate months.˙ And of course the mandatory vehicle
body rot in the first year.
Lynn
On 2026-03-03 21:16:29 +0000, Lynn McGuire said:
xkcd: Electric Vehicles
˙˙˙ https://www.xkcd.com/3214/
Me too.˙ Not until the batteries can go a few thousand miles in my
F-150 4x4 truck without charging.
Where are my Heinlein Shipstones ?˙ We need these desperately.
Explained at:
˙˙˙ https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/3214:_Electric_Vehicles
Lynn
Not until the batteries can be fully recharged in the same few minutes
it takes to fill a petrol powered car.
Not until they make a proper manual / stick-shift electric car ... which will never hapen, so I'll never be buying a silly electric car.
On 3/3/26 14:52, Lynn McGuire wrote:
On 3/3/2026 4:27 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
Lawrence =?iso-8859-13?q?D=FFOliveiro?=˙ <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
On Wed, 4 Mar 2026 10:23:25 +1300, Your Name wrote:
Not until they make a proper manual / stick-shift electric car ...
which will never hapen, so I'll never be buying a silly electric
car.
Not sure why that's necessary.
Don't worry, the British are working on it.˙ Morgan showed a 4/4 with an >>> induction motor that had a relatively limited speed range, going into
a Getrag six-speed.˙ Very very British.˙ If they can just make it
leak oil,
they will have a good market.
--scott
You forgot the British vehicle eating batteries and alternators /
generators on alternate months.˙ And of course the mandatory vehicle
body rot in the first year.
Lynn
˙˙˙˙˙˙˙ Lynn. you sound as though you are familiar with "Lucas the
Prince of Darkness."
˙˙˙˙bliss
On 3/3/2026 4:27 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
Lawrence =?iso-8859-13?q?D=FFOliveiro?= <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
On Wed, 4 Mar 2026 10:23:25 +1300, Your Name wrote:
Not until they make a proper manual / stick-shift electric car ...
which will never hapen, so I'll never be buying a silly electric
car.
Not sure why that's necessary.
Don't worry, the British are working on it. Morgan showed a 4/4 with an
induction motor that had a relatively limited speed range, going into
a Getrag six-speed. Very very British. If they can just make it leak oil, >> they will have a good market.
--scott
You forgot the British vehicle eating batteries and alternators /
generators on alternate months. And of course the mandatory vehicle
body rot in the first year.
On 3/3/26 13:23, Your Name wrote:
On 2026-03-03 21:16:29 +0000, Lynn McGuire said:
xkcd: Electric Vehicles
˙˙˙ https://www.xkcd.com/3214/
Me too.˙ Not until the batteries can go a few thousand miles in my
F-150 4x4 truck without charging.
Where are my Heinlein Shipstones ?˙ We need these desperately.
Explained at:
˙˙˙ https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/3214:_Electric_Vehicles
Lynn
Not until the batteries can be fully recharged in the same few minutes
it takes to fill a petrol powered car.
Not until they make a proper manual / stick-shift electric car ...
which will never hapen, so I'll never be buying a silly electric car.
˙˙˙˙Well you have to stop to eat and that will take about as long as a Tesla
does to charge.˙ Why the hell would you want to add complications to a
simple vehicle with the un-needed manual shift.˙ All you need is reverse
for
parking?
˙˙˙˙bliss - waiting on the 300 mile battery-powered motorcycle at a reasonable price
Lawrence =?iso-8859-13?q?D=FFOliveiro?= <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
On Wed, 4 Mar 2026 10:23:25 +1300, Your Name wrote:
Not until they make a proper manual / stick-shift electric car ...
which will never hapen, so I'll never be buying a silly electric
car.
Not sure why that's necessary.
Don't worry, the British are working on it. Morgan showed a 4/4 with an induction motor that had a relatively limited speed range, going into
a Getrag six-speed. Very very British. If they can just make it leak oil, they will have a good market.
--scott
On 3/3/2026 5:02 PM, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
On 3/3/26 13:23, Your Name wrote:
On 2026-03-03 21:16:29 +0000, Lynn McGuire said:
xkcd: Electric Vehicles
˙˙˙ https://www.xkcd.com/3214/
Me too.˙ Not until the batteries can go a few thousand miles in my
F-150 4x4 truck without charging.
Where are my Heinlein Shipstones ?˙ We need these desperately.
Explained at:
˙˙˙ https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/3214:_Electric_Vehicles >>>>
Lynn
Not until the batteries can be fully recharged in the same few
minutes it takes to fill a petrol powered car.
Not until they make a proper manual / stick-shift electric car ...
which will never hapen, so I'll never be buying a silly electric car.
˙˙˙˙˙Well you have to stop to eat and that will take about as long as
a Tesla
does to charge.˙ Why the hell would you want to add complications to a
simple vehicle with the un-needed manual shift.˙ All you need is
reverse for
parking?
˙˙˙˙˙bliss - waiting on the 300 mile battery-powered motorcycle at a
reasonable price
"Worlds First Solid State Powered Electric Motorcycle gets 600km (370
miles) Range"
˙˙ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFj6Irg-SYU
Lynn
Uncovering The World's First Solid-State Battery - YouTube https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H45HXs4xXfA__;!!G92We9drHetJ8EofZw!euy32olPaCYb8NmtSBr83jKCTCNTdGDcl_SP4Mla-Ibcw2ae5Pt8AfaVG5RJgRqwAUd5GWO-nTYCWAKkjAiX78UxiLatMg$
Not until they make a proper manual / stick-shift electric car ... which
will never hapen, so I'll never be buying a silly electric car.
On Wed, 4 Mar 2026 10:23:25 +1300, Your Name wrote:
Not until they make a proper manual / stick-shift electric car ...
which will never hapen, so I'll never be buying a silly electric
car.
Not sure why that?s necessary. You *do* realize electric motors don?t
stall, don?t you? So you could start off from 0 RPM in top gear. The
more current the motor draws, the more torque it puts out.
On 3/3/26 13:23, Your Name wrote:
On 2026-03-03 21:16:29 +0000, Lynn McGuire said:
xkcd: Electric Vehicles
??? https://www.xkcd.com/3214/
Me too.? Not until the batteries can go a few thousand miles in my
F-150 4x4 truck without charging.
Where are my Heinlein Shipstones ?? We need these desperately.
Explained at:
??? https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/3214:_Electric_Vehicles
Lynn
Not until the batteries can be fully recharged in the same few minutes
it takes to fill a petrol powered car.
Not until they make a proper manual / stick-shift electric car ...
which will never hapen, so I'll never be buying a silly electric car.
Well you have to stop to eat and that will take about as long as a Tesla
does to charge. Why the hell would you want to add complications to a
simple vehicle with the un-needed manual shift. All you need is reverse for parking?
bliss - waiting on the 300 mile battery-powered motorcycle at a reasonable price
On 3/3/26 15:44, Lynn McGuire wrote:
On 3/3/2026 5:02 PM, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
On 3/3/26 13:23, Your Name wrote:
On 2026-03-03 21:16:29 +0000, Lynn McGuire said:
xkcd: Electric Vehicles
˙˙˙ https://www.xkcd.com/3214/
Me too.˙ Not until the batteries can go a few thousand miles in my
F-150 4x4 truck without charging.
Where are my Heinlein Shipstones ?˙ We need these desperately.
Explained at:
˙˙˙ https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/3214:_Electric_Vehicles >>>>>
Lynn
Not until the batteries can be fully recharged in the same few
minutes it takes to fill a petrol powered car.
Not until they make a proper manual / stick-shift electric car ...
which will never hapen, so I'll never be buying a silly electric car.
˙˙˙˙˙Well you have to stop to eat and that will take about as long as
a Tesla
does to charge.˙ Why the hell would you want to add complications to a
simple vehicle with the un-needed manual shift.˙ All you need is
reverse for
parking?
˙˙˙˙˙bliss - waiting on the 300 mile battery-powered motorcycle at a
reasonable price
"Worlds First Solid State Powered Electric Motorcycle gets 600km (370
miles) Range"
˙˙˙ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFj6Irg-SYU
Lynn
˙˙˙˙˙˙˙ Sorry but analysis by other folks reveal the solid state
"Donut" batteries
obtained by purchase reveal more regular Lithium batteries.˙ Team Amiga
is always
looking for this stuff.˙ Frequently saddened by the reports.
Uncovering The World's First Solid-State Battery - YouTube
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=H45HXs4xXfA__;!!G92We9drHetJ8EofZw!
euy32olPaCYb8NmtSBr83jKCTCNTdGDcl_SP4Mla-
Ibcw2ae5Pt8AfaVG5RJgRqwAUd5GWO-nTYCWAKkjAiX78UxiLatMg$
˙˙˙˙˙˙˙ Take care, Lynn.
˙˙˙˙˙˙˙ bliss
On 2026-03-03 23:02:53 +0000, Bobbie Sellers said:
Well you have to stop to eat and that will take about as long as a Tesla
does to charge. Why the hell would you want to add complications to a simple vehicle with the un-needed manual shift. All you need is reverse for
parking?
Why would I stop to eat?? You go somewhere, do what you went for, and
then come back.
Even if you did stop to eat, you have to find a vacant charger, and
since there are hardly any chargers int the first place, let alone a
vacant one, you'll find it a bit difficult. If you do manage to find
one, you're then tying it up so nobody else can use it for a few hours.
Electric cars are simply ridiculous idiocy that defy all common sense.
On 2026-03-03 23:02:53 +0000, Bobbie Sellers said:
On 3/3/26 13:23, Your Name wrote:
On 2026-03-03 21:16:29 +0000, Lynn McGuire said:
xkcd: Electric Vehicles
˙˙˙ https://www.xkcd.com/3214/
Me too.˙ Not until the batteries can go a few thousand miles in my
F-150 4x4 truck without charging.
Where are my Heinlein Shipstones ?˙ We need these desperately.
Explained at:
˙˙˙ https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/3214:_Electric_Vehicles >>>>
Lynn
Not until the batteries can be fully recharged in the same few
minutes it takes to fill a petrol powered car.
Not until they make a proper manual / stick-shift electric car ...
which will never hapen, so I'll never be buying a silly electric car.
˙˙˙˙Well you have to stop to eat and that will take about as long as a
Tesla
does to charge.˙ Why the hell would you want to add complications to a
simple vehicle with the un-needed manual shift.˙ All you need is
reverse for
parking?
˙˙˙˙bliss - waiting on the 300 mile battery-powered motorcycle at a
reasonable price
Why would I stop to eat?? You go somewhere, do what you went for, and
then come back.
Even if you did stop to eat, you have to find a vacant charger, and
since there are hardly any chargers int the first place, let alone a
vacant one, you'll find it a bit difficult. If you do manage to find
one, you're then tying it up so nobody else can use it for a few hours.
Electric cars are simply ridiculous idiocy that defy all common sense.
An automatic or electric sportscar is an oxymoron.
An electric car with a proper manual stick shift would be silly.
On 3/3/26 19:08, Your Name wrote:
On 2026-03-03 23:02:53 +0000, Bobbie Sellers said:
On 3/3/26 13:23, Your Name wrote:
On 2026-03-03 21:16:29 +0000, Lynn McGuire said:
xkcd: Electric Vehicles
??? https://www.xkcd.com/3214/
Me too.? Not until the batteries can go a few thousand miles in my
F-150 4x4 truck without charging.
Where are my Heinlein Shipstones ?? We need these desperately.
Explained at:
??? https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/3214:_Electric_Vehicles >>>>>
Lynn
Not until the batteries can be fully recharged in the same few minutes >>>> it takes to fill a petrol powered car.
Not until they make a proper manual / stick-shift electric car ...
which will never hapen, so I'll never be buying a silly electric car.
????Well you have to stop to eat and that will take about as long as a Tesla
does to charge.? Why the hell would you want to add complications to a
simple vehicle with the un-needed manual shift.? All you need is reverse for
parking?
????bliss - waiting on the 300 mile battery-powered motorcycle at a
reasonable price
Why would I stop to eat?? You go somewhere, do what you went for, and
then come back.
Even if you did stop to eat, you have to find a vacant charger, and
since there are hardly any chargers int the first place, let alone a
vacant one, you'll find it a bit difficult. If you do manage to find
one, you're then tying it up so nobody else can use it for a few hours.
Electric cars are simply ridiculous idiocy that defy all common sense.
I have a friend with a Tesla also a mansion in Pacific Heights. He is frequently
driving to and from Los Angeles I that is why he stops along the way to eat and
to recharge. Hear nothing about trouble finding a charging space and we have some on city streets. Used to have lot in the parking lot of a Safeway store on
O'Farrell between Webster and Fillmore Streets. The Safeway closed and will be replaced eventually as the Ground story of a housing complex. I used
to shop there a few times a month. When I started that in my 30s I could walk
back and forth. Then I could walk out and take the bus back then i took the bus both ways but then the store went away since Covid restrictions began
to be lifted. I dunno about the charging stations.
Internal explosion engines are ridiculous except on motorcycles. In cars
the IEE's have spoiled our climate. As someone in the Early 20th or late 19th Century said "A fad, these noisy stink machines cannot hold the
public's interest."
Speaking as someone who was fascinated by the technology in
my earlier years, two-strokes, 4 strokes. side valve, OHV, and Desdromic
run by various chains and shafts. Just to get a put-put.
bliss in San Francisco, California, USA
On Wed, 4 Mar 2026 15:51:20 +1300, Titus G wrote:
An electric car with a proper manual stick shift would be silly.
Not necessarily. They already have cars which fake engine noise
through the hi-fi speakers. It would be easy enough for the power
control system to add a fake torque curve and gear ratios, up to and including fake stalling if you stuff it up!
I think that if you want one for yourself for city use and are
prepared to pay to have a home charging station installed, it would
work well for you. You do need to be prepared for issues if you
want to do a road trip, though, and to understand the charging
curve during cold weather. Simply switching out a conventional
ICE vehicle for an Energizer one for a rental contract is right
the f--k out, though.
On 2026-03-04, Mark Shaw <mshaw@panix.com> wrote:
I think that if you want one for yourself for city use and are
prepared to pay to have a home charging station installed, it would
work well for you. You do need to be prepared for issues if you
want to do a road trip, though, and to understand the charging
curve during cold weather. Simply switching out a conventional
ICE vehicle for an Energizer one for a rental contract is right
the f--k out, though.
Suburban use is also fine, and they're great second cars. Not suitable for
my situation, either (so I bought a hybrid, giving me the insane 60 mpg in >the right conditions). IOW, you are correct. I would like to try an
electric vehicle, just out of curiosity, but I do not want one sprung on me >by a rental agency.
Even if you did stop to eat, you have to find a vacant charger, and
since there are hardly any chargers int the first place, let alone a
vacant one, you'll find it a bit difficult. If you do manage to find
one, you're then tying it up so nobody else can use it for a few hours.
Electric cars are simply ridiculous idiocy that defy all common sense.
On Wed, 4 Mar 2026 16:04:24 +1300, Your Name wrote:
An automatic or electric sportscar is an oxymoron.
While we?re at it: down with synchromesh! If you don?t need to double-declutch while changing gear, it?s not a *real* car!
In rec.arts.sf.written Your Name <YourName@yourisp.com> wrote:
On 2026-03-03 23:02:53 +0000, Bobbie Sellers said:
Well you have to stop to eat and that will take about as long as a Tesla
does to charge. Why the hell would you want to add complications to a
simple vehicle with the un-needed manual shift. All you need is reverse for
parking?
Why would I stop to eat?? You go somewhere, do what you went for, and
then come back.
Even if you did stop to eat, you have to find a vacant charger, and
since there are hardly any chargers int the first place, let alone a
vacant one, you'll find it a bit difficult. If you do manage to find
one, you're then tying it up so nobody else can use it for a few hours.
I travel a lot for my hobby (dogsports judge), and typically rent
cars in the destination city. Avis has inflicted electric vehicles
upon me twice.
In Washington State, I was headed to a rural location and didn't
even know that I was given an electric vehicle until 20-30 miles
down the road. After arriving, I researched recharging stations
and found that there were none within the predicted range of what
charge I had left. I ended up hooking up to 120VAC household current.
It took about 36 hours to build up a comfortable charge, and the
person who pays for that current yelled at me (as well she should
have).
In a suburb of New Orleans, I was comfortably within the confines
of a large city, but there were only two charging stations reasonably
close to me or on my route back to the airport. One was listed by
Google Maps as being closed for an indefinite period. The other
one was quite well out of my way. I returned that vehicle without
charging it, and was prepared to tear an agent a new orifice if
one were to contact me with a complaint. (That did not happen.)
Fortunately, the Avis app now allows a renter to pre-decline a
Duracell vehicle.
Electric cars are simply ridiculous idiocy that defy all common sense.
I think that if you want one for yourself for city use and are
prepared to pay to have a home charging station installed, it would
work well for you. You do need to be prepared for issues if you
want to do a road trip, though, and to understand the charging
curve during cold weather. Simply switching out a conventional
ICE vehicle for an Energizer one for a rental contract is right
the f--k out, though.
I travel a lot for my hobby (dogsports judge), and typically rent
cars in the destination city. Avis has inflicted electric vehicles
upon me twice.
In Washington State, I was headed to a rural location and didn't
even know that I was given an electric vehicle until 20-30 miles
down the road. After arriving, I researched recharging stations
and found that there were none within the predicted range of what
charge I had left. I ended up hooking up to 120VAC household current.
It took about 36 hours to build up a comfortable charge, and the
person who pays for that current yelled at me (as well she should
have).
Carl Fink <carlf@panix.com> writes:for
On 2026-03-04, Mark Shaw <mshaw@panix.com> wrote:
I think that if you want one for yourself for city use and are
prepared to pay to have a home charging station installed, it would
work well for you. You do need to be prepared for issues if you
want to do a road trip, though, and to understand the charging
curve during cold weather. Simply switching out a conventional
ICE vehicle for an Energizer one for a rental contract is right
the f--k out, though.
Suburban use is also fine, and they're great second cars. Not suitable
inmy situation, either (so I bought a hybrid, giving me the insane 60 mpg
on methe right conditions). IOW, you are correct. I would like to try an >>electric vehicle, just out of curiosity, but I do not want one sprung
thatby a rental agency.
While I've had problems with Avis[*] recently, my experience has been
one selects the rental car in advance. Avis doesn't just willy-nillydemanded two forms of
assign electric cars to renters unless they ask for one.
[*] Reserved a mercedes, but the San Diego airport rental counter
government ID to rent the mercedes and I didn't bring my passport, sothey
downgraded me to a seriously underpowered mazda suv.
Never Avis again.
Carl Fink <carlf@panix.com> writes:
On 2026-03-04, Mark Shaw <mshaw@panix.com> wrote:
I think that if you want one for yourself for city use and are
prepared to pay to have a home charging station installed, it would
work well for you. You do need to be prepared for issues if you
want to do a road trip, though, and to understand the charging
curve during cold weather. Simply switching out a conventional
ICE vehicle for an Energizer one for a rental contract is right
the f--k out, though.
Suburban use is also fine, and they're great second cars. Not suitable for >> my situation, either (so I bought a hybrid, giving me the insane 60 mpg in >> the right conditions). IOW, you are correct. I would like to try an
electric vehicle, just out of curiosity, but I do not want one sprung on me >> by a rental agency.
While I've had problems with Avis[*] recently, my experience has been that one selects the rental car in advance. Avis doesn't just willy-nilly
assign electric cars to renters unless they ask for one.
[*] Reserved a mercedes, but the San Diego airport rental counter demanded two forms of
government ID to rent the mercedes and I didn't bring my passport, so they downgraded me to a seriously underpowered mazda suv.
Never Avis again.
Internal explosion engines are ridiculous except on motorcycles. Incars
the IEE's have spoiled our climate. As someone in the Early 20th orlate
19th Century said "A fad, these noisy stink machines cannot hold the
public's interest."
On 2026-03-04 03:58:09 +0000, Lawrence D?Oliveiro said:
On Wed, 4 Mar 2026 15:51:20 +1300, Titus G wrote:
An electric car with a proper manual stick shift would be silly.
Not necessarily. They already have cars which fake engine noise
through the hi-fi speakers. It would be easy enough for the power
control system to add a fake torque curve and gear ratios, up to and
including fake stalling if you stuff it up!
But "fake" = "silly".
On 2026-03-04 03:37:34 +0000, Bobbie Sellers said:
On 3/3/26 19:08, Your Name wrote:
On 2026-03-03 23:02:53 +0000, Bobbie Sellers said:
On 3/3/26 13:23, Your Name wrote:
On 2026-03-03 21:16:29 +0000, Lynn McGuire said:
xkcd: Electric Vehicles
˙˙˙ https://www.xkcd.com/3214/
Me too.˙ Not until the batteries can go a few thousand miles in my >>>>>> F-150 4x4 truck without charging.
Where are my Heinlein Shipstones ?˙ We need these desperately.
Explained at:
˙˙˙ https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/
index.php/3214:_Electric_Vehicles
Lynn
Not until the batteries can be fully recharged in the same few
minutes it takes to fill a petrol powered car.
Not until they make a proper manual / stick-shift electric car ...
which will never hapen, so I'll never be buying a silly electric car. >>>>>
˙˙˙˙Well you have to stop to eat and that will take about as long as
a Tesla
does to charge.˙ Why the hell would you want to add complications to a >>>> simple vehicle with the un-needed manual shift.˙ All you need is
reverse for
parking?
˙˙˙˙bliss - waiting on the 300 mile battery-powered motorcycle at a
reasonable price
Why would I stop to eat?? You go somewhere, do what you went for, and
then come back.
Even if you did stop to eat, you have to find a vacant charger, and
since there are hardly any chargers int the first place, let alone a
vacant one, you'll find it a bit difficult. If you do manage to find
one, you're then tying it up so nobody else can use it for a few hours.
Electric cars are simply ridiculous idiocy that defy all common sense.
˙˙˙˙I have a friend with a Tesla also a mansion in Pacific Heights.
He is frequently
driving to and from Los Angeles I that is why he stops along the way
to eat and
to recharge.˙ Hear nothing about trouble finding a charging space and
we have
some on city streets.˙ Used to have lot in the parking lot of a
Safeway store on
O'Farrell between Webster and Fillmore Streets.˙ The Safeway closed
and will
be replaced eventually as the Ground story of a housing complex.˙˙ I used
to shop there a few times a month.˙ When I started that in my 30s I
could walk
back and forth.˙ Then I could walk out and take the bus back then i
took the
bus both ways but then the store went away since Covid restrictions began
to be lifted.˙ I dunno about the charging stations.
˙˙˙˙Internal explosion engines are ridiculous except on motorcycles.
In cars
the IEE's have spoiled our climate.˙ As someone in the Early 20th or late
19th Century said "A fad, these noisy stink machines cannot hold the
public's interest."
˙˙˙˙Speaking as someone who was fascinated by the technology in
my earlier years, two-strokes, 4 strokes. side valve, OHV, and Desdromic
run by various chains and shafts. Just to get a put-put.
˙˙˙˙bliss in San Francisco, California, USA
Despite what the greenie brigade would like to have you believe, the
private car (and farting farm animals for that matter) are a minor part
of the problem. The bigger problem is the diesel belching buses and
trains of public transport, the diesel belching trucks, the numerous polluting factories, garbage dumps, etc.
In reality, the biggest problem is actually that there are simply far
too many humans on the planet.
Electric cars are no better for the environment than real cars are.
On 3/3/26 19:08, Your Name wrote:[...]
On 2026-03-03 23:02:53 +0000, Bobbie Sellers said:
On 3/3/26 13:23, Your Name wrote:
On 2026-03-03 21:16:29 +0000, Lynn McGuire said:
xkcd: Electric Vehicles
˙˙˙ https://www.xkcd.com/3214/
Me too.˙ Not until the batteries can go a few thousand miles in my
F-150 4x4 truck without charging.
Where are my Heinlein Shipstones ?˙ We need these desperately.
Explained at:
˙˙˙ https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/3214:_Electric_Vehicles >>>>>
Lynn
Not until the batteries can be fully recharged in the same few
minutes it takes to fill a petrol powered car.
Not until they make a proper manual / stick-shift electric car ...
which will never hapen, so I'll never be buying a silly electric car.
˙˙˙˙Well you have to stop to eat and that will take about as long as
a Tesla
does to charge.˙ Why the hell would you want to add complications to a
simple vehicle with the un-needed manual shift.˙ All you need is
reverse for
parking?
˙˙˙˙bliss - waiting on the 300 mile battery-powered motorcycle at a
reasonable price
Why would I stop to eat?? You go somewhere, do what you went for, and
then come back.
Even if you did stop to eat, you have to find a vacant charger, and
since there are hardly any chargers int the first place, let alone a
vacant one, you'll find it a bit difficult. If you do manage to find
one, you're then tying it up so nobody else can use it for a few hours.
Electric cars are simply ridiculous idiocy that defy all common sense.
˙˙˙˙I have a friend with a Tesla also a mansion in Pacific Heights.˙ He
is frequently
driving to and from Los Angeles I that is why he stops along the way to
eat and
to recharge.˙ Hear nothing about trouble finding a charging space and we have
some on city streets.
On 2026-03-04 03:58:09 +0000, Lawrence D?Oliveiro said:
On Wed, 4 Mar 2026 15:51:20 +1300, Titus G wrote:
An electric car with a proper manual stick shift would be silly.
Not necessarily. They already have cars which fake engine noise
through the hi-fi speakers. It would be easy enough for the power
control system to add a fake torque curve and gear ratios, up to and
including fake stalling if you stuff it up!
But "fake" = "silly".
On Wed, 4 Mar 2026 20:14:20 +1300, Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com>
wrote:
On 2026-03-04 03:58:09 +0000, Lawrence D?Oliveiro said:
On Wed, 4 Mar 2026 15:51:20 +1300, Titus G wrote:
An electric car with a proper manual stick shift would be silly.
Not necessarily. They already have cars which fake engine noise
through the hi-fi speakers. It would be easy enough for the power
control system to add a fake torque curve and gear ratios, up to and
including fake stalling if you stuff it up!
But "fake" = "silly".
IIRC, the original motivation for engine noise was to allow blind
persons to tell that there was an automobile lurking about.
IOW, automobile engine noise has become a vital part of the sonic environment.
While I've had problems with Avis[*] recently, my experience has been that one selects the rental car in advance. Avis doesn't just willy-nilly
assign electric cars to renters unless they ask for one.
On Wed, 4 Mar 2026 03:34:54 -0000 (UTC), Mark Shaw <mshaw@panix.com>
wrote:
In Washington State, I was headed to a rural location and didn't
even know that I was given an electric vehicle until 20-30 miles
down the road. After arriving, I researched recharging stations
and found that there were none within the predicted range of what
charge I had left. I ended up hooking up to 120VAC household current.
It took about 36 hours to build up a comfortable charge, and the
person who pays for that current yelled at me (as well she should
have).
The standard solution for that, which goes at least as far back as
Wikie Collin's /No Name/, is to take out your wallet and start putting
money in her hand. Continue until she calms down.
On 3/3/2026 10:34 PM, Mark Shaw wrote:
I think that if you want one for yourself for city use and are
prepared to pay to have a home charging station installed, it would
work well for you. You do need to be prepared for issues if you
want to do a road trip, though, and to understand the charging
curve during cold weather. Simply switching out a conventional
ICE vehicle for an Energizer one for a rental contract is right
the f--k out, though.
I totally agree that putting someone in an electric without
telling them is completely unacceptable. I also find it
highly implausible that you didn't notice immediately.
IIRC, the original motivation for engine noise was to allow blind
persons to tell that there was an automobile lurking about.
On 3/3/2026 10:56 PM, Lawrence D?Oliveiro wrote:
On Wed, 4 Mar 2026 16:04:24 +1300, Your Name wrote:
An automatic or electric sportscar is an oxymoron.
While we?re at it: down with synchromesh! If you don?t need to
double-declutch while changing gear, it?s not a *real* car!
...and lets get rid of those namby-pamby electric starters!
Real Drivers use a hand crank!
On Wed, 04 Mar 2026 14:37:28 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:
Carl Fink <carlf@panix.com> writes:in
On 2026-03-04, Mark Shaw <mshaw@panix.com> wrote:
I think that if you want one for yourself for city use and are
prepared to pay to have a home charging station installed, it would
work well for you. You do need to be prepared for issues if you
want to do a road trip, though, and to understand the charging
curve during cold weather. Simply switching out a conventional
ICE vehicle for an Energizer one for a rental contract is right
the f--k out, though.
Suburban use is also fine, and they're great second cars. Not suitable = >for
my situation, either (so I bought a hybrid, giving me the insane 60 mpg=
on methe right conditions). IOW, you are correct. I would like to try an >>>electric vehicle, just out of curiosity, but I do not want one sprung =
thatby a rental agency.=20
While I've had problems with Avis[*] recently, my experience has been =
one selects the rental car in advance. Avis doesn't just willy-nilly >>assign electric cars to renters unless they ask for one.demanded two forms of
[*] Reserved a mercedes, but the San Diego airport rental counter =
government ID to rent the mercedes and I didn't bring my passport, so =they
downgraded me to a seriously underpowered mazda suv.
Never Avis again.
I wonder how common requiring /two/ forms of gummint ID are.
Cryptoengineer <petertrei@gmail.com> writes:
On 3/3/2026 10:56 PM, Lawrence D?Oliveiro wrote:
On Wed, 4 Mar 2026 16:04:24 +1300, Your Name wrote:
An automatic or electric sportscar is an oxymoron.
While we?re at it: down with synchromesh! If you don?t need to
double-declutch while changing gear, it?s not a *real* car!
...and lets get rid of those namby-pamby electric starters!
Real Drivers use a hand crank!
Or a pony motor.
In rec.arts.sf.written Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
IIRC, the original motivation for engine noise was to allow blind
persons to tell that there was an automobile lurking about.
If I had an electric car, I'd want it to make the noise that The
Jetsons' car made.
˙˙˙˙That depends entirely on the environment.
˙˙˙˙But one place they excel is noise reduction in the cities which is harmful
to people.˙ All those non-electric vehicles˙ contribute to the stresses
of life
in a city.˙ Private cars contribute a great deal to the carbon burden,
but in
the USA presently there are NO regulations of any form of pollution as
these
were just removed by the mal-administrations EPA.
˙˙˙˙"Farm animals" were a ploy by Ronald Regan to attempt to side-track anti-pollution measures.˙ But˙ some intensive livestock operations can be very polluting and annoying to anyone in the vicinity.˙ Pig farming for example is really stinky.˙ But so is sugar beet processing.
˙˙˙˙bliss
On 3/3/2026 10:56 PM, Lawrence D?Oliveiro wrote:
On Wed, 4 Mar 2026 16:04:24 +1300, Your Name wrote:
An automatic or electric sportscar is an oxymoron.
While we?re at it: down with synchromesh! If you don?t need to
double-declutch while changing gear, it?s not a *real* car!
...and lets get rid of those namby-pamby electric starters! Real
Drivers use a hand crank!
Cryptoengineer <petertrei@gmail.com> writes:
On 3/3/2026 10:56 PM, Lawrence D?Oliveiro wrote:
On Wed, 4 Mar 2026 16:04:24 +1300, Your Name wrote:
An automatic or electric sportscar is an oxymoron.
While we?re at it: down with synchromesh! If you don?t need to
double-declutch while changing gear, it?s not a *real* car!
...and lets get rid of those namby-pamby electric starters!
Real Drivers use a hand crank!
Or a pony motor.
Cryptoengineer <petertrei@gmail.com> writes:
On 3/3/2026 10:56 PM, Lawrence D?Oliveiro wrote:
On Wed, 4 Mar 2026 16:04:24 +1300, Your Name wrote:
An automatic or electric sportscar is an oxymoron.
While we?re at it: down with synchromesh! If you don?t need to
double-declutch while changing gear, it?s not a *real* car!
...and lets get rid of those namby-pamby electric starters!
Real Drivers use a hand crank!
Or a pony motor.
On 3/4/26 12:41, Scott Lurndal wrote:
Cryptoengineer <petertrei@gmail.com> writes:
On 3/3/2026 10:56 PM, Lawrence D?Oliveiro wrote:
On Wed, 4 Mar 2026 16:04:24 +1300, Your Name wrote:
An automatic or electric sportscar is an oxymoron.
While we?re at it: down with synchromesh! If you don?t need to
double-declutch while changing gear, it?s not a *real* car!
...and lets get rid of those namby-pamby electric starters!
Real Drivers use a hand crank!
Or kick-starters for small capacity engines. I remember bruising my foot and shins during my youthful motorcycle days. Electric starters on
my BMW-R75 from 1972 were an improvement.
Or a pony motor.
Some of the best SF predicted human powered transport. Teams of humans to move heavy loads. The very wealthy had horses and ponies to pull
their carriages.
Long distance travel was done by portals. "Maybe The Stars My Destination".
I believe in the Emberverse trains were moved by passengers participating
in the exertions... Maybe we should all go by pedal car which might be healtier
overall.
bliss
On 3/3/26 23:11, Your Name wrote:
On 2026-03-04 03:37:34 +0000, Bobbie Sellers said:
On 3/3/26 19:08, Your Name wrote:
On 2026-03-03 23:02:53 +0000, Bobbie Sellers said:
On 3/3/26 13:23, Your Name wrote:
On 2026-03-03 21:16:29 +0000, Lynn McGuire said:????Well you have to stop to eat and that will take about as long as a >>>>> Tesla does to charge.? Why the hell would you want to add complications >>>>> to a simple vehicle with the un-needed manual shift.? All you need is >>>>> reverse for parking?
xkcd: Electric Vehicles
??? https://www.xkcd.com/3214/
Me too.? Not until the batteries can go a few thousand miles in my >>>>>>> F-150 4x4 truck without charging.
Where are my Heinlein Shipstones ?? We need these desperately.
Explained at:
??? https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/ index.php/3214:_Electric_Vehicles >>>>>>>
Lynn
Not until the batteries can be fully recharged in the same few minutes >>>>>> it takes to fill a petrol powered car.
Not until they make a proper manual / stick-shift electric car ... >>>>>> which will never hapen, so I'll never be buying a silly electric car. >>>>>
????bliss - waiting on the 300 mile battery-powered motorcycle at a >>>>> reasonable price
Why would I stop to eat?? You go somewhere, do what you went for, and >>>> then come back.
Even if you did stop to eat, you have to find a vacant charger, and
since there are hardly any chargers int the first place, let alone a
vacant one, you'll find it a bit difficult. If you do manage to find
one, you're then tying it up so nobody else can use it for a few hours. >>>>
Electric cars are simply ridiculous idiocy that defy all common sense.
????I have a friend with a Tesla also a mansion in Pacific Heights. He >>> is frequently driving to and from Los Angeles I that is why he stops
along the way to eat and to recharge.? Hear nothing about trouble
finding a charging space and we have some on city streets.? Used to
have lot in the parking lot of a Safeway store on O'Farrell between
Webster and Fillmore Streets.? The Safeway closed and will be replaced
eventually as the Ground story of a housing complex.?? I used to shop
there a few times a month.? When I started that in my 30s I could walk
back and forth.? Then I could walk out and take the bus back then i
took the bus both ways but then the store went away since Covid
restrictions began to be lifted.? I dunno about the charging stations.
????Internal explosion engines are ridiculous except on motorcycles. In cars
the IEE's have spoiled our climate.? As someone in the Early 20th or late >>> 19th Century said "A fad, these noisy stink machines cannot hold the
public's interest."
????Speaking as someone who was fascinated by the technology in my
earlier years, two-strokes, 4 strokes. side valve, OHV, and Desdromic
run by various chains and shafts. Just to get a put-put.
????bliss in San Francisco, California, USA
Despite what the greenie brigade would like to have you believe, the
private car (and farting farm animals for that matter) are a minor part
of the problem. The bigger problem is the diesel belching buses and
trains of public transport, the diesel belching trucks, the numerous
polluting factories, garbage dumps, etc.
In reality, the biggest problem is actually that there are simply far
too many humans on the planet.
Electric cars are no better for the environment than real cars are.
That depends entirely on the environment.
But one place they excel is noise reduction in the cities
which is harmful to people. All those non-electric vehicles
contribute to the stresses of life in a city. Private cars contribute
a great deal to the carbon burden, but in the USA presently there are
NO regulations of any form of pollution as these were just removed by
the mal-administrations EPA.
"Farm animals" were a ploy by Ronald Regan to attempt to side-track anti-pollution measures. But some intensive livestock operations can
be very polluting and annoying to anyone in the vicinity. Pig farming
for example is really stinky. But so is sugar beet processing.
bliss
On 3/4/2026 10:59 AM, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
...
˙˙˙˙That depends entirely on the environment.were just removed by the mal-administrations EPA.
˙˙˙˙But one place they excel is noise reduction in the cities which is
harmful
to people.˙ All those non-electric vehicles˙ contribute to the stresses
of life
in a city.˙ Private cars contribute a great deal to the carbon burden,
but in
the USA presently there are NO regulations of any form of pollution as
these
˙˙˙˙"Farm animals" were a ploy by Ronald Regan to attempt to side-track anti-pollution measures.˙ But˙ some intensive livestock operations can be very polluting and annoying to anyone in the vicinity.˙ Pig farming for example is really stinky.˙ But so is sugar beet processing.
On 3/4/2026 10:59 AM, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
...
????That depends entirely on the environment.
????But one place they excel is noise reduction in the cities which is harmful
to people.? All those non-electric vehicles? contribute to the stresses of life
in a city.? Private cars contribute a great deal to the carbon burden, but in
the USA presently there are NO regulations of any form of pollution as these >> were just removed by the mal-administrations EPA.
????"Farm animals" were a ploy by Ronald Regan to attempt to side-track
anti-pollution measures.? But? some intensive livestock operations can be
very polluting and annoying to anyone in the vicinity.? Pig farming for
example is really stinky.? But so is sugar beet processing.
????bliss
Yup, I can attest to that here in Sugar Land, Texas. When they shut
down the Sugar refinery here in 2005 or so, the city started smelling a
lot better. They could not get the vapor controls to work properly or consistently in the 1840 something sugar refinery as the entire city
would smell like burnt sugar all the time.
Lynn
Some of the best SF predicted human powered transport. Teams of
humans to move heavy loads. The very wealthy had horses and ponies
to pull their carriages. Long distance travel was done by portals.
"Maybe The Stars My Destination".
On Tue, 3 Mar 2026 19:37:34 -0800, Bobbie Sellers ><bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> wrote:
Internal explosion engines are ridiculous except on motorcycles. In = >carslate
the IEE's have spoiled our climate. As someone in the Early 20th or =
19th Century said "A fad, these noisy stink machines cannot hold the >>public's interest."
In /The Rolling Stones/, Heinlein has an interesting essay on the >ridiculousness of the IC automobile.
On 3/4/2026 2:14 AM, Your Name wrote:
On 2026-03-04 03:58:09 +0000, Lawrence D?Oliveiro said:
On Wed, 4 Mar 2026 15:51:20 +1300, Titus G wrote:
An electric car with a proper manual stick shift would be silly.
Not necessarily. They already have cars which fake engine noise
through the hi-fi speakers. It would be easy enough for the power
control system to add a fake torque curve and gear ratios, up to and
including fake stalling if you stuff it up!
But "fake" = "silly".
So, BMW, VW, Toyota, Toyota are all silly?
Some people, like 'YourName' are imprinted on old technology.
I see no reason for cars to be noisy, smelly, and slow.
pt
On 3/4/2026 11:53 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
On Wed, 4 Mar 2026 20:14:20 +1300, Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com>
wrote:
On 2026-03-04 03:58:09 +0000, Lawrence D?Oliveiro said:
On Wed, 4 Mar 2026 15:51:20 +1300, Titus G wrote:
An electric car with a proper manual stick shift would be silly.
Not necessarily. They already have cars which fake engine noise
through the hi-fi speakers. It would be easy enough for the power
control system to add a fake torque curve and gear ratios, up to and
including fake stalling if you stuff it up!
But "fake" = "silly".
IIRC, the original motivation for engine noise was to allow blind
persons to tell that there was an automobile lurking about.
IOW, automobile engine noise has become a vital part of the sonic
environment.
There's two different kinds of noise being confused here.
One is noise that cars are supposed to emit *outside* the car when
traveling forward under 20 mph, or when reversing. Its intended to warn pedestrians of the car.
My Tesla predates the mandate, and has no exterior speaker, so it's
silent. I've totally startled pedestrians when creeping along behind
them in areas with a little background noise.
For a while after the speakers were added, you could use any noise you wanted. I would have used the Jetson's flying car sound.
The other kind of noise are fake engine noises piped into the cabin, to please people who think Real Cars go 'vroom vroom'. BMW and other
makers to this, and to ICE cars as well as EVs.
pt
On 3/4/2026 2:04 PM, Mark Shaw wrote:
In rec.arts.sf.written Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
IIRC, the original motivation for engine noise was to allow blind
persons to tell that there was an automobile lurking about.
If I had an electric car, I'd want it to make the noise that The
Jetsons' car made.
Me too. But the NTSB came up with standards, requiring
certain loudnesses in different frequency bands, and
that it sound like a motor of some kind, with frequency
shifting up with speed.
On 3/4/2026 2:04 PM, Mark Shaw wrote:
In rec.arts.sf.written Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
IIRC, the original motivation for engine noise was to allow blind
persons to tell that there was an automobile lurking about.
If I had an electric car, I'd want it to make the noise that The
Jetsons' car made.
Me too. But the NTSB came up with standards, requiring
certain loudnesses in different frequency bands, and
that it sound like a motor of some kind, with frequency
shifting up with speed.
pt
On 2026-03-04 21:12:27 +0000, Lynn McGuire said:
On 3/4/2026 10:59 AM, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
...
˙˙˙˙That depends entirely on the environment.
˙˙˙˙But one place they excel is noise reduction in the cities which
is harmful
to people.˙ All those non-electric vehicles˙ contribute to the
stresses of life
in a city.˙ Private cars contribute a great deal to the carbon
burden, but in
the USA presently there are NO regulations of any form of pollution
as these
were just removed by the mal-administrations EPA.
˙˙˙˙"Farm animals" were a ploy by Ronald Regan to attempt to side-track
anti-pollution measures.˙ But˙ some intensive livestock operations
can be
very polluting and annoying to anyone in the vicinity.˙ Pig farming for
example is really stinky.˙ But so is sugar beet processing.
˙˙˙˙bliss
Yup, I can attest to that here in Sugar Land, Texas.˙ When they shut
down the Sugar refinery here in 2005 or so, the city started smelling
a lot better.˙ They could not get the vapor controls to work properly
or consistently in the 1840 something sugar refinery as the entire
city would smell like burnt sugar all the time.
Lynn
Can't say I've ever heard of any problems with the sugar refinery here
in Auckland, which was built a long time ago and is now in the harbour-
side edge of what has become a fairly expensive suburb. They even run
tours and have a public cafe (although the food there is expensive).
On 3/4/2026 3:56 PM, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
Some of the best SF predicted human powered transport. Teams of
humans to move heavy loads.˙ The very wealthy had horses and ponies
to pull their carriages. Long distance travel was done by portals.
"Maybe The Stars My Destination".
Arriving at the social event of the season the rich competed with
various expensive means of transport.˙ The protagonist topped them all
by arriving by train, preceded by a mechanical track-laying contraption.
I see no reason for cars to be noisy, smelly, and slow.
On 2026-03-04 17:09:04 +0000, Cryptoengineer said:
On 3/4/2026 2:14 AM, Your Name wrote:
On 2026-03-04 03:58:09 +0000, Lawrence D?Oliveiro said:
On Wed, 4 Mar 2026 15:51:20 +1300, Titus G wrote:
An electric car with a proper manual stick shift would be silly.
Not necessarily. They already have cars which fake engine noise
through the hi-fi speakers. It would be easy enough for the power
control system to add a fake torque curve and gear ratios, up to and
including fake stalling if you stuff it up!
But "fake" = "silly".
So, BMW,˙ VW, Toyota, Toyota are all silly?
No, fake gears would be silly.
Fake noises are a bit less silly, as long as they're normal car sounds
so that pedestrians can hear them coming.
Electric cars themselves are silly.
Some people, like 'YourName' are imprinted on old technology.
I see no reason for cars to be noisy, smelly, and slow.
pt
Petrol cars aren't slow ... many of the fastest production cars in the
world are still petrol powered, although electric "assist" and pure
electric ones have more recently started joining the list too.
Of course, speed is actually irrelevant since there's a little thing
called "speed limits" in the real world.˙ :-p
On 3/4/2026 5:22 PM, Your Name wrote:
On 2026-03-04 17:09:04 +0000, Cryptoengineer said:
On 3/4/2026 2:14 AM, Your Name wrote:
On 2026-03-04 03:58:09 +0000, Lawrence D?Oliveiro said:
On Wed, 4 Mar 2026 15:51:20 +1300, Titus G wrote:
An electric car with a proper manual stick shift would be silly.
Not necessarily. They already have cars which fake engine noise
through the hi-fi speakers. It would be easy enough for the power
control system to add a fake torque curve and gear ratios, up to and >>>>> including fake stalling if you stuff it up!
But "fake" = "silly".
So, BMW,? VW, Toyota, Toyota are all silly?
No, fake gears would be silly.
Fake noises are a bit less silly, as long as they're normal car sounds
so that pedestrians can hear them coming.
Electric cars themselves are silly.
Some people, like 'YourName' are imprinted on old technology.
I see no reason for cars to be noisy, smelly, and slow.
pt
Petrol cars aren't slow ... many of the fastest production cars in the
world are still petrol powered, although electric "assist" and pure
electric ones have more recently started joining the list too.
Of course, speed is actually irrelevant since there's a little thing
called "speed limits" in the real world.? :-p
True, but 'fast' includes 'fast off a stop'. The 3 quickest production
cars in the world can do 0-60 in 1.7 seconds. Two of them are EVs.
Even my bottom-end Tesla can go 0-60 in 5 seconds,
which means I can leave the vast majority of cars in the dust.
Its very comforting to know that you can get out of a tight situation
by going forwards as well as by braking.
I see you concede on 'noisy and smelly'.
pt
Yep. That's one of the stupidities of the boy racer brigadge who believe having a noisy car means it's more powerful ... in reality much of that noise is due to wasted energy, so the car is actually *less* powerful
and / or produced by pointless exhaust echoes.˙ :-\
I see no reason for cars to be noisy, smelly, and slow.
Maybe they have done good in this world and are now tired.
"Farm animals" were a ploy by Ronald Regan to attempt to side-trackbe
anti-pollution measures. But some intensive livestock operations can
very polluting and annoying to anyone in the vicinity. Pig farming for >example is really stinky. But so is sugar beet processing.
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