• Re: How High Up Do You Have To Be To See The Curvature Of The Earth?

    From Paul S Person@3:633/10 to All on Fri Apr 3 08:57:48 2026
    On Fri, 3 Apr 2026 03:38:28 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D?Oliveiro
    <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:

    What altitude do you have to be at before the curvature of the Earth
    becomes discernible to the naked eye?

    My answer, if the surface around you is sufficiently flat all the way
    to the horizon (e.g. on the sea) is ?any nonzero altitude will do?.
    So
    if you?re standing on the deck of even a small boat, the curvature of
    the horizon is already discernible.

    Because, think about it: what shape is the horizon? A flat horizontal
    line? No, it?s a circle that goes all the way around you. A circle is
    a curve. QED.

    On the other hand, many pictures taken at high altitudes, purporting
    to show the curve of the horizon, are in fact misleading, because a
    lot of the curvature you see is distortion from using a wide-angle
    lens.

    Actually, IIRC, man's first clue that the Earth was rounded was when
    sailors got far enough out to see mountains slowly rising from the
    horizon as they got closer. Or maybe Bedu on camels coming out of the
    desert watching the walls of the town they were going to slowly rise
    from the sand.

    This sort of thing wouldn't happen if the Earth were flat.
    --
    "Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
    Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
    Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.13
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Charles Packer@3:633/10 to All on Sat Apr 4 07:25:07 2026
    On Fri, 03 Apr 2026 08:57:48 -0700, Paul S Person wrote:

    On Fri, 3 Apr 2026 03:38:28 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D?Oliveiro
    <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:

    What altitude do you have to be at before the curvature of the Earth >>becomes discernible to the naked eye?

    My answer, if the surface around you is sufficiently flat all the way to >>the horizon (e.g. on the sea) is ?any nonzero altitude will do?. So if >>you?re standing on the deck of even a small boat, the curvature of the >>horizon is already discernible.

    Because, think about it: what shape is the horizon? A flat horizontal
    line? No, it?s a circle that goes all the way around you. A circle is a >>curve. QED.

    On the other hand, many pictures taken at high altitudes, purporting to >>show the curve of the horizon, are in fact misleading, because a lot of
    the curvature you see is distortion from using a wide-angle lens.

    Actually, IIRC, man's first clue that the Earth was rounded was when
    sailors got far enough out to see mountains slowly rising from the
    horizon as they got closer. Or maybe Bedu on camels coming out of the
    desert watching the walls of the town they were going to slowly rise
    from the sand.

    This sort of thing wouldn't happen if the Earth were flat.

    And there's always Wendover, Utah.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.13
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Tony Nance@3:633/10 to All on Sat Apr 4 10:49:08 2026
    On 4/2/26 11:38 PM, Lawrence D?Oliveiro wrote:
    What altitude do you have to be at before the curvature of the Earth
    becomes discernible to the naked eye?

    My answer, if the surface around you is sufficiently flat all the way
    to the horizon (e.g. on the sea) is ?any nonzero altitude will do?. So
    if you?re standing on the deck of even a small boat, the curvature of
    the horizon is already discernible.

    Because, think about it: what shape is the horizon? A flat horizontal
    line? No, it?s a circle that goes all the way around you. A circle is
    a curve. QED.

    On the other hand, many pictures taken at high altitudes, purporting
    to show the curve of the horizon, are in fact misleading, because a
    lot of the curvature you see is distortion from using a wide-angle
    lens.

    There's also a related idea about calculating the distance "d" to the
    horizon. The formula is that d is approximately Sqrt[2Rh] where R is the radius of the earth, and h is your height above sea level.

    The upshot is that it's surprisingly close:
    A 6-foot person standing at sea level sees the horizon only about
    3 miles (or 4.8 km) away.

    Tony


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.13
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Paul S Person@3:633/10 to All on Sat Apr 4 09:04:01 2026
    On Sat, 4 Apr 2026 07:25:07 -0000 (UTC), Charles Packer
    <mailbox@cpacker.org> wrote:

    On Fri, 03 Apr 2026 08:57:48 -0700, Paul S Person wrote:

    On Fri, 3 Apr 2026 03:38:28 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D?Oliveiro
    <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:

    What altitude do you have to be at before the curvature of the Earth >>>becomes discernible to the naked eye?

    My answer, if the surface around you is sufficiently flat all the way
    to
    the horizon (e.g. on the sea) is ?any nonzero altitude will do?. So if >>>you?re standing on the deck of even a small boat, the curvature of the >>>horizon is already discernible.

    Because, think about it: what shape is the horizon? A flat horizontal >>>line? No, it?s a circle that goes all the way around you. A circle is
    a
    curve. QED.

    On the other hand, many pictures taken at high altitudes, purporting
    to
    show the curve of the horizon, are in fact misleading, because a lot
    of
    the curvature you see is distortion from using a wide-angle lens.

    Actually, IIRC, man's first clue that the Earth was rounded was when
    sailors got far enough out to see mountains slowly rising from the
    horizon as they got closer. Or maybe Bedu on camels coming out of the
    desert watching the walls of the town they were going to slowly rise
    from the sand.

    This sort of thing wouldn't happen if the Earth were flat.

    And there's always Wendover, Utah.

    Sadly, we have no records of Wendover, Utah back around, say 10,000
    BC. For the nomads and their camels anyway; sailors far enough out to
    notice the effect had to wait until they felt willing to sail out of
    sight of the land.
    --
    "Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
    Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
    Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.13
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Cryptoengineer@3:633/10 to All on Sat Apr 4 18:11:21 2026
    On 4/2/2026 11:38 PM, Lawrence D?Oliveiro wrote:
    What altitude do you have to be at before the curvature of the Earth
    becomes discernible to the naked eye?

    My answer, if the surface around you is sufficiently flat all the way
    to the horizon (e.g. on the sea) is ?any nonzero altitude will do?. So
    if you?re standing on the deck of even a small boat, the curvature of
    the horizon is already discernible.

    Because, think about it: what shape is the horizon? A flat horizontal
    line? No, it?s a circle that goes all the way around you. A circle is
    a curve. QED.

    On the other hand, many pictures taken at high altitudes, purporting
    to show the curve of the horizon, are in fact misleading, because a
    lot of the curvature you see is distortion from using a wide-angle
    lens.

    Greek philosphers were discussing the the spherical shape of the Earth
    in the 5th century BC, and Eratosthenes calculated the circumference
    to under 3% error in the 3rd century BC.

    pt

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.13
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Cryptoengineer@3:633/10 to All on Sat Apr 4 18:12:35 2026
    On 4/3/2026 11:57 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
    On Fri, 3 Apr 2026 03:38:28 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D?Oliveiro
    <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:

    What altitude do you have to be at before the curvature of the Earth
    becomes discernible to the naked eye?

    My answer, if the surface around you is sufficiently flat all the way
    to the horizon (e.g. on the sea) is ?any nonzero altitude will do?. So
    if you?re standing on the deck of even a small boat, the curvature of
    the horizon is already discernible.

    Because, think about it: what shape is the horizon? A flat horizontal
    line? No, it?s a circle that goes all the way around you. A circle is
    a curve. QED.

    On the other hand, many pictures taken at high altitudes, purporting
    to show the curve of the horizon, are in fact misleading, because a
    lot of the curvature you see is distortion from using a wide-angle
    lens.

    Actually, IIRC, man's first clue that the Earth was rounded was when
    sailors got far enough out to see mountains slowly rising from the
    horizon as they got closer. Or maybe Bedu on camels coming out of the
    desert watching the walls of the town they were going to slowly rise
    from the sand.

    This sort of thing wouldn't happen if the Earth were flat.A

    Also, changes in which stars stayed above the horizon all night
    as one moved north or south.

    pt

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.13
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Paul S Person@3:633/10 to All on Sun Apr 5 08:35:33 2026
    On Sat, 4 Apr 2026 18:12:35 -0400, Cryptoengineer
    <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:

    On 4/3/2026 11:57 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
    On Fri, 3 Apr 2026 03:38:28 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D?Oliveiro
    <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:

    What altitude do you have to be at before the curvature of the Earth
    becomes discernible to the naked eye?

    My answer, if the surface around you is sufficiently flat all the way
    to the horizon (e.g. on the sea) is ?any nonzero altitude will
    do?. So
    if you?re standing on the deck of even a small boat, the curvature
    of
    the horizon is already discernible.

    Because, think about it: what shape is the horizon? A flat horizontal
    line? No, it?s a circle that goes all the way around you. A circle
    is
    a curve. QED.

    On the other hand, many pictures taken at high altitudes, purporting
    to show the curve of the horizon, are in fact misleading, because a
    lot of the curvature you see is distortion from using a wide-angle
    lens.

    Actually, IIRC, man's first clue that the Earth was rounded was when
    sailors got far enough out to see mountains slowly rising from the
    horizon as they got closer. Or maybe Bedu on camels coming out of the
    desert watching the walls of the town they were going to slowly rise
    from the sand.

    This sort of thing wouldn't happen if the Earth were flat.A

    Also, changes in which stars stayed above the horizon all night
    as one moved north or south.

    Ah, yes, Ptolemy.

    He also showed that the Earth was a point in relation to the fixed
    stars. Which, since it is clearly not a point, meant they were clearly
    far, far away.
    --
    "Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
    Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
    Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.13
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Paul S Person@3:633/10 to All on Sun Apr 5 08:37:11 2026
    On Sat, 4 Apr 2026 18:11:21 -0400, Cryptoengineer
    <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:

    On 4/2/2026 11:38 PM, Lawrence D?Oliveiro wrote:
    What altitude do you have to be at before the curvature of the Earth
    becomes discernible to the naked eye?

    My answer, if the surface around you is sufficiently flat all the way
    to the horizon (e.g. on the sea) is ?any nonzero altitude will
    do?. So
    if you?re standing on the deck of even a small boat, the curvature
    of
    the horizon is already discernible.

    Because, think about it: what shape is the horizon? A flat horizontal
    line? No, it?s a circle that goes all the way around you. A circle
    is
    a curve. QED.

    On the other hand, many pictures taken at high altitudes, purporting
    to show the curve of the horizon, are in fact misleading, because a
    lot of the curvature you see is distortion from using a wide-angle
    lens.

    Greek philosphers were discussing the the spherical shape of the Earth
    in the 5th century BC, and Eratosthenes calculated the circumference
    to under 3% error in the 3rd century BC.

    Oh, yeah, that the Earth is round has been known to the intelligentsia
    for a long, long time. Hoi polloi still contains elements who think it
    is flat.
    --
    "Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
    Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
    Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.13
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From WolfFan@3:633/10 to All on Mon Apr 6 08:04:08 2026
    On Apr 5, 2026, Paul S Person wrote
    (in article<6b05tk5nmq14qemm43bjvfqrcqft899voi@4ax.com>):

    On Sat, 4 Apr 2026 18:11:21 -0400, Cryptoengineer
    <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:

    On 4/2/2026 11:38 PM, Lawrence D?Oliveiro wrote:
    What altitude do you have to be at before the curvature of the Earth becomes discernible to the naked eye?

    My answer, if the surface around you is sufficiently flat all the way
    to the horizon (e.g. on the sea) is ?any nonzero altitude will do?. So
    if you?re standing on the deck of even a small boat, the curvature of
    the horizon is already discernible.

    Because, think about it: what shape is the horizon? A flat horizontal line? No, it?s a circle that goes all the way around you. A circle is
    a curve. QED.

    On the other hand, many pictures taken at high altitudes, purporting
    to show the curve of the horizon, are in fact misleading, because a
    lot of the curvature you see is distortion from using a wide-angle
    lens.

    Greek philosphers were discussing the the spherical shape of the Earth
    in the 5th century BC, and Eratosthenes calculated the circumference
    to under 3% error in the 3rd century BC.

    Oh, yeah, that the Earth is round has been known to the intelligentsia
    for a long, long time. Hoi polloi still contains elements who think it
    is flat.

    Mostly for religious reasons. Flat Earthers in Christian territory tend to be closely related to creationists. According to them, the Bible must be taken literally, and as the Bible mentions ?four corners? and has Yeshua go
    high enough that he can see all of the Earth at the same time, plus of course the ?firmament? above anf ?the waters? below (that?s where the Food
    waters came from, and where they returned...) those who say that the Earth isn?t flat are all godless atheists who are doomed, doomed, DOOMED they
    say. For some reason the flearther who told me this got offended when I started laughing.

    Further info on flearthers is available at Quora and at Reddit.


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.13
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Paul S Person@3:633/10 to All on Mon Apr 6 08:31:09 2026
    On Mon, 06 Apr 2026 08:04:08 -0400, WolfFan <akwolffan@zoho.com>
    wrote:

    On Apr 5, 2026, Paul S Person wrote
    (in article<6b05tk5nmq14qemm43bjvfqrcqft899voi@4ax.com>):

    On Sat, 4 Apr 2026 18:11:21 -0400, Cryptoengineer
    <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:

    On 4/2/2026 11:38 PM, Lawrence D?Oliveiro wrote:
    What altitude do you have to be at before the curvature of the
    Earth
    becomes discernible to the naked eye?

    My answer, if the surface around you is sufficiently flat all the
    way
    to the horizon (e.g. on the sea) is ?any nonzero altitude will
    do?. So
    if you?re standing on the deck of even a small boat, the
    curvature of
    the horizon is already discernible.

    Because, think about it: what shape is the horizon? A flat
    horizontal
    line? No, it?s a circle that goes all the way around you. A
    circle is
    a curve. QED.

    On the other hand, many pictures taken at high altitudes,
    purporting
    to show the curve of the horizon, are in fact misleading, because
    a
    lot of the curvature you see is distortion from using a wide-angle
    lens.

    Greek philosphers were discussing the the spherical shape of the
    Earth
    in the 5th century BC, and Eratosthenes calculated the circumference
    to under 3% error in the 3rd century BC.

    Oh, yeah, that the Earth is round has been known to the intelligentsia
    for a long, long time. Hoi polloi still contains elements who think it
    is flat.

    Mostly for religious reasons. Flat Earthers in Christian territory tend
    to be
    closely related to creationists. According to them, the Bible must be
    taken
    literally, and as the Bible mentions ?four corners? and has Yeshua
    go
    high enough that he can see all of the Earth at the same time, plus of
    course
    the ?firmament? above anf ?the waters? below (that?s where the
    Food
    waters came from, and where they returned...) those who say that the
    Earth
    isn?t flat are all godless atheists who are doomed, doomed, DOOMED
    they
    say. For some reason the flearther who told me this got offended when I >started laughing.

    Further info on flearthers is available at Quora and at Reddit.

    Yes, well, I've run into those arguments and there is very little that
    would suprise me about them.

    Trying to refute them is pointless: there is always more nonsense
    produced in support.
    --
    "Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
    Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
    Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.13
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Ignatios Souvatzis@3:633/10 to All on Tue Apr 7 19:15:50 2026
    Paul S Person wrote:
    [...] sailors far enough out to
    notice the effect had to wait until they felt willing to sail out of
    sight of the land.

    But... how do they know they are out of sight of land? They have to
    sail away of it until part of it is hidden. Or until they still can
    see something from masttop that's no longer visible from deck.

    -is

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.13
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Ignatios Souvatzis@3:633/10 to All on Tue Apr 7 19:18:00 2026
    WolfFan wrote:

    Further info on flearthers is available at Quora and at Reddit.

    The Flat Earth Society has members all over the globe.

    -is

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.13
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Paul S Person@3:633/10 to All on Wed Apr 8 09:05:36 2026
    On 7 Apr 2026 19:15:50 GMT, Ignatios Souvatzis <u502sou@bnhb484.de>
    wrote:

    Paul S Person wrote:
    [...] sailors far enough out to
    notice the effect had to wait until they felt willing to sail out of
    sight of the land.

    But... how do they know they are out of sight of land? They have to
    sail away of it until part of it is hidden. Or until they still can
    see something from masttop that's no longer visible from deck.

    IIRC, the claim is that they sailed along the coast, keeping it in
    sight at all times.

    But your point is well taken -- and extends further back the time when
    sailors had visible evidence that the Earth is rounded.
    --
    "Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
    Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
    Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.13
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From BCFD 36@3:633/10 to All on Fri Apr 10 16:30:32 2026
    On 4/4/26 00:25, Charles Packer wrote:
    On Fri, 03 Apr 2026 08:57:48 -0700, Paul S Person wrote:

    On Fri, 3 Apr 2026 03:38:28 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D?Oliveiro
    <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:

    What altitude do you have to be at before the curvature of the Earth
    becomes discernible to the naked eye?

    My answer, if the surface around you is sufficiently flat all the way to >>> the horizon (e.g. on the sea) is ?any nonzero altitude will do?. So if
    you?re standing on the deck of even a small boat, the curvature of the
    horizon is already discernible.

    Because, think about it: what shape is the horizon? A flat horizontal
    line? No, it?s a circle that goes all the way around you. A circle is a
    curve. QED.

    On the other hand, many pictures taken at high altitudes, purporting to
    show the curve of the horizon, are in fact misleading, because a lot of
    the curvature you see is distortion from using a wide-angle lens.

    Actually, IIRC, man's first clue that the Earth was rounded was when
    sailors got far enough out to see mountains slowly rising from the
    horizon as they got closer. Or maybe Bedu on camels coming out of the
    desert watching the walls of the town they were going to slowly rise
    from the sand.

    This sort of thing wouldn't happen if the Earth were flat.

    And there's always Wendover, Utah.
    Could you follow up on that a bit. I've been to Wendover and didn't
    notice any roundness. Of course, I wasn't looking for it. And there was
    too much heat distortion over the salt flats to get a good view of far off.


    --
    ----------------

    Dave Scruggs
    Senior Software Engineer - Lockheed Martin, et. al (mostly Retired)
    Captain - Boulder Creek Fire (Retired)
    Board of Directors - Boulder Creek Fire Protection District (What was I thinking?)

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.13
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Titus G@3:633/10 to All on Sat Apr 11 16:10:44 2026
    On 08/04/2026 07:18, Ignatios Souvatzis wrote:
    WolfFan wrote:

    Further info on flearthers is available at Quora and at Reddit.

    The Flat Earth Society has members all over the globe.

    -is

    In every corner? On every edge?

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.13
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Charles Packer@3:633/10 to All on Sat Apr 11 07:37:55 2026
    On Fri, 10 Apr 2026 16:30:32 -0700, BCFD 36 wrote:

    On 4/4/26 00:25, Charles Packer wrote:
    On Fri, 03 Apr 2026 08:57:48 -0700, Paul S Person wrote:

    On Fri, 3 Apr 2026 03:38:28 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D?Oliveiro
    <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:

    What altitude do you have to be at before the curvature of the Earth
    becomes discernible to the naked eye?

    My answer, if the surface around you is sufficiently flat all the way
    to the horizon (e.g. on the sea) is ?any nonzero altitude will do?.
    So if you?re standing on the deck of even a small boat, the
    curvature
    of the horizon is already discernible.

    Because, think about it: what shape is the horizon? A flat horizontal
    line? No, it?s a circle that goes all the way around you. A circle
    is
    a curve. QED.

    On the other hand, many pictures taken at high altitudes, purporting
    to show the curve of the horizon, are in fact misleading, because a
    lot of the curvature you see is distortion from using a wide-angle
    lens.

    Actually, IIRC, man's first clue that the Earth was rounded was when
    sailors got far enough out to see mountains slowly rising from the
    horizon as they got closer. Or maybe Bedu on camels coming out of the
    desert watching the walls of the town they were going to slowly rise
    from the sand.

    This sort of thing wouldn't happen if the Earth were flat.

    And there's always Wendover, Utah.
    Could you follow up on that a bit. I've been to Wendover and didn't
    notice any roundness. Of course, I wasn't looking for it. And there was
    too much heat distortion over the salt flats to get a good view of far
    off.

    Online it says where to get the best view and the best time of
    day (dusk).
    https://www.roadsideamerica.com/tip/51347
    I was there in 1974 and recall setting up my spotting telescope
    and seeing through the haze that the line of telephone poles
    stretching down the highway into the haze /maybe sort of/ had
    a slight curvature downward just like the picture in the ancient
    encyclopedia I owned as a kid.


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.13
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)