Gonna be dark until 8 am or so in the winter. Still, stopping the
stupid time changes will be a relief.
On Fri, 17 Jul 2026 14:43:32 -0500, Lynn McGuire wrote:
Gonna be dark until 8 am or so in the winter. Still, stopping the
stupid time changes will be a relief.
If you?re far enough from the equator for it to matter, then it
becomes a choice between waking up when it?s still dark, versus
staying in bed while it gets light. Or alternatively, going to bed
when it?s still light, versus staying up after it?s already dark.
Which would you prefer? Because you can?t legislate either the tilt of
the Earth?s axis, or the way human biological clocks work.
On Fri, 17 Jul 2026 14:43:32 -0500, Lynn McGuire wrote:
Gonna be dark until 8 am or so in the winter. Still, stopping the
stupid time changes will be a relief.
If you?re far enough from the equator for it to matter, then it
becomes a choice between waking up when it?s still dark, versus
staying in bed while it gets light. Or alternatively, going to bed
when it?s still light, versus staying up after it?s already dark.
Which would you prefer? Because you can?t legislate either the tilt of
the Earth?s axis, or the way human biological clocks work.
On 7/17/2026 11:44 PM, Lawrence D?Oliveiro wrote:
On Fri, 17 Jul 2026 14:43:32 -0500, Lynn McGuire wrote:
Gonna be dark until 8 am or so in the winter. Still, stopping the
stupid time changes will be a relief.
If you?re far enough from the equator for it to matter, then it
becomes a choice between waking up when it?s still dark, versus
staying in bed while it gets light. Or alternatively, going to bed
when it?s still light, versus staying up after it?s already dark.
Which would you prefer? Because you can?t legislate either the tilt of
the Earth?s axis, or the way human biological clocks work.
What I find stupid about the whole thing is the suggestion is to go >permanent DST. What is wrong with Standard Time?
On Fri, 17 Jul 2026 14:43:32 -0500, Lynn McGuire wrote:
Gonna be dark until 8 am or so in the winter. Still, stopping the
stupid time changes will be a relief.
If you?re far enough from the equator for it to matter, then it
becomes a choice between waking up when it?s still dark, versus
staying in bed while it gets light. Or alternatively, going to bed
when it?s still light, versus staying up after it?s already dark.
On Fri, 17 Jul 2026 14:43:32 -0500, Lynn McGuire wrote:
Gonna be dark until 8 am or so in the winter. Still, stopping the
stupid time changes will be a relief.
If you?re far enough from the equator for it to matter, then it
becomes a choice between waking up when it?s still dark, versus
staying in bed while it gets light. Or alternatively, going to bed
when it?s still light, versus staying up after it?s already dark.
Which would you prefer? Because you can?t legislate either the tilt of
the Earth?s axis, or the way human biological clocks work.
No, not at all. I could get up later at one time of year than another >without having to reset the clocks constantly.
What I find stupid about the whole thing is the suggestion is to go
permanent DST. What is wrong with Standard Time? Either way you
can't avoid people having to be awake and doing things when the sun
is below the horizon!
Funny, not so long ago I read a novel where AMERICA! had corrected
the axial tilt.
On Sat, 18 Jul 2026 13:46:57 -0000 (UTC), James Nicoll wrote:
Funny, not so long ago I read a novel where AMERICA! had corrected
the axial tilt.
What happened to the seasons? Climate? Ecology?
Also, I heard somewhere that, about 10,000 or so years ago, the tilt
changed from 24ø to the present 23«ø, and this was a factor in the desertification of the Sahara.
Funny, not so long ago I read a novel where AMERICA! had corrected
the axial tilt. That was just a background detail. Mostly the story
was about heavily armed Americans going to other planets to kill
anything that moved.
On Sat, 18 Jul 2026 08:11:58 -0700, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
What I find stupid about the whole thing is the suggestion is to go
permanent DST. What is wrong with Standard Time? Either way you
can't avoid people having to be awake and doing things when the sun
is below the horizon!
As an urbanized, industrialized society, we are accustomed to doing
things after dark long into the evenings, with the help of large
amounts of artificial illumination.
Getting up before sunrise in the mornings, and using artificial
illumination to get through the early part of the day, not so much.
The whole point with the clock changeovers is precisely to try to
maintain some rough synchronization with that sunrise time, I would
think.
On Sat, 18 Jul 2026 22:09:59 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D?Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
The whole point with the clock changeovers is precisely to try to
maintain some rough synchronization with that sunrise time, I would
think.
The original point was to keep Defence Plants working longer hours
because the light lasted longer. There was, after all, a war on.
In article <MPG.44c6d9a384489b9a98a1a6@news.eternal-september.org>,
The True Melissa <thetruemelissa@gmail.comNOSPAM> wrote:
Verily, in article <ge0q5lpp3j982qs00c7ej5qgho89n5a7cq@4ax.com>, did
psperson@old.netcom.invalid deliver unto us this message:
On Sat, 18 Jul 2026 22:09:59 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D?Oliveiro
<ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
The whole point with the clock changeovers is precisely to try to
maintain some rough synchronization with that sunrise time, I would
think.
The original point was to keep Defence Plants working longer hours
because the light lasted longer. There was, after all, a war on.
The version I've heard is that it was for farmers, so they would have
more daylight in the winter.
With either version or any other, there are still exactly the same
number of minutes of daylight in any given day. Renumbering them doesn't
save or lose anything. If some enterprises want to adjust their hours of
operation with the calendar, they should adjust their own schedules
instead of altering the clock.
Farmers get up with the dawn, not the clock. My great-aunt was a farmer,
and she considered Standard Time to be God's Time, and DST to be the devil's work.
Farmers get up with the dawn, not the clock. My great-aunt was a farmer,
and she considered Standard Time to be God's Time, and DST to be the devil's >work.
On Sat, 18 Jul 2026 13:46:57 -0000 (UTC), James Nicoll wrote:
Funny, not so long ago I read a novel where AMERICA! had corrected
the axial tilt.
What happened to the seasons? Climate? Ecology?
ERROR "unexpected byte sequence starting at index 83: '\xE2'" while decoding:
Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> writes:
On 7/17/2026 11:44 PM, Lawrence Dƒ??Oliveiro wrote:
On Fri, 17 Jul 2026 14:43:32 -0500, Lynn McGuire wrote:
Gonna be dark until 8 am or so in the winter. Still, stopping the
stupid time changes will be a relief.
If youƒ??re far enough from the equator for it to matter, then it
becomes a choice between waking up when itƒ??s still dark, versus
staying in bed while it gets light. Or alternatively, going to bed
when itƒ??s still light, versus staying up after itƒ??s already dark.
Which would you prefer? Because you canƒ??t legislate either the tilt of >> the Earthƒ??s axis, or the way human biological clocks work.
What I find stupid about the whole thing is the suggestion is to go >permanent DST. What is wrong with Standard Time?
At my lat/long, DST simply makes more sense for both winter and
summer.
Using ST, the summer solstice dawn would begin before 0400, sunrise at 0600, and set before 2000 - DST shifts both forward an hour.
Using DST, the winter dawn breaks at 0430 on
the shortest day, sunrise at 0722 and sunset near 1700 instead of 1600.
It really depends on how you are positioned in a timezone. Perhaps
six timezones instead of three would aleviate those difficulties (but
would likely be a very difficult transition from the current three).
Agreed, being at the eastern or western edge of a timezone makes an
hours difference in daylight.
Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> writes:
On 7/17/2026 11:44 PM, Lawrence Dƒ??Oliveiro wrote:
On Fri, 17 Jul 2026 14:43:32 -0500, Lynn McGuire wrote:
Gonna be dark until 8 am or so in the winter. Still, stopping the
stupid time changes will be a relief.
If youƒ??re far enough from the equator for it to matter, then it
becomes a choice between waking up when itƒ??s still dark, versus
staying in bed while it gets light. Or alternatively, going to bed
when itƒ??s still light, versus staying up after itƒ??s already dark.
Which would you prefer? Because you canƒ??t legislate either the tilt of >>> the Earthƒ??s axis, or the way human biological clocks work.
What I find stupid about the whole thing is the suggestion is to go >>permanent DST. What is wrong with Standard Time?
At my lat/long, DST simply makes more sense for both winter and
summer.
Using ST, the summer solstice dawn would begin before 0400, sunrise at 0600, and set before 2000 - DST shifts both forward an hour.
Using DST, the winter dawn breaks at 0430 on
the shortest day, sunrise at 0722 and sunset near 1700 instead of 1600.
It really depends on how you are positioned in a timezone. Perhaps
six timezones instead of three would aleviate those difficulties (but
would likely be a very difficult transition from the current three).
On Mon, 20 Jul 2026 04:53:49 GMT, Crryptoengineer wrote:
Agreed, being at the eastern or western edge of a timezone makes an
hours difference in daylight.
Timezones aren?t necessarily 15ø wide, or even centred around the corresponding mean solar time, or anywhere near it. Quite often their demarcations are determined by political issues.
For example, when flying from Kuala Lumpur to Jakarta, there is a net eastward change in longitude, yet you set your clock back by an hour
when you get there.
scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) posted:
ERROR "unexpected byte sequence starting at index 83: '\xE2'" while decoding:
Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> writes:
On 7/17/2026 11:44 PM, Lawrence Dƒ??Oliveiro wrote:
On Fri, 17 Jul 2026 14:43:32 -0500, Lynn McGuire wrote:
Gonna be dark until 8 am or so in the winter. Still, stopping the
stupid time changes will be a relief.
If youƒ??re far enough from the equator for it to matter, then it
becomes a choice between waking up when itƒ??s still dark, versus
staying in bed while it gets light. Or alternatively, going to bed
when itƒ??s still light, versus staying up after itƒ??s already dark.
Which would you prefer? Because you canƒ??t legislate either the tilt of >> >> the Earthƒ??s axis, or the way human biological clocks work.
What I find stupid about the whole thing is the suggestion is to go
permanent DST. What is wrong with Standard Time?
At my lat/long, DST simply makes more sense for both winter and
summer.
Using ST, the summer solstice dawn would begin before 0400, sunrise at 0600, >> and set before 2000 - DST shifts both forward an hour.
Using DST, the winter dawn breaks at 0430 on
the shortest day, sunrise at 0722 and sunset near 1700 instead of 1600.
It really depends on how you are positioned in a timezone. Perhaps
six timezones instead of three would aleviate those difficulties (but
would likely be a very difficult transition from the current three).
The continental US has 4 timezones.
Agreed, being at the eastern or western edge of a timezone makes an hours >difference in daylight. There really isn't an elegant solution. I'd prefer whatever
setting puts solar noon closest to clock noon.
Verily, in article <ge0q5lpp3j982qs00c7ej5qgho89n5a7cq@4ax.com>, did psperson@old.netcom.invalid deliver unto us this message:
On Sat, 18 Jul 2026 22:09:59 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D?Oliveiro
<ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
The whole point with the clock changeovers is precisely to try to
maintain some rough synchronization with that sunrise time, I would
think.
The original point was to keep Defence Plants working longer hours
because the light lasted longer. There was, after all, a war on.
The version I've heard is that it was for farmers, so they would have
more daylight in the winter.
With either version or any other, there are still exactly the same
number of minutes of daylight in any given day. Renumbering them doesn't
save or lose anything. If some enterprises want to adjust their hours of operation with the calendar, they should adjust their own schedules
instead of altering the clock.
The continental US has 4 timezones.hours
Agreed, being at the eastern or western edge of a timezone makes an
difference in daylight. There really isn't an elegant solution. I'dprefer whatever
setting puts solar noon closest to clock noon.
On 2026-07-18, Scott Lurndal wrote:it
Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> writes:
On 7/17/2026 11:44 PM, Lawrence D?Oliveiro wrote:
On Fri, 17 Jul 2026 14:43:32 -0500, Lynn McGuire wrote:
Gonna be dark until 8 am or so in the winter. Still, stopping the
stupid time changes will be a relief.
If you?re far enough from the equator for it to matter, then
versusbecomes a choice between waking up when it?s still dark,
already dark.staying in bed while it gets light. Or alternatively, going to bed
when it?s still light, versus staying up after it?s
the tilt of
Which would you prefer? Because you can?t legislate either
0600,the Earth?s axis, or the way human biological clocks work.
What I find stupid about the whole thing is the suggestion is to go >>>permanent DST. What is wrong with Standard Time?
At my lat/long, DST simply makes more sense for both winter and
summer.
Using ST, the summer solstice dawn would begin before 0400, sunrise at
1600.and set before 2000 - DST shifts both forward an hour.
Using DST, the winter dawn breaks at 0430 on
the shortest day, sunrise at 0722 and sunset near 1700 instead of
It really depends on how you are positioned in a timezone. Perhaps
six timezones instead of three would aleviate those difficulties (but
would likely be a very difficult transition from the current three).
I can't help but feel that "ST" isn't a good abbreviation to use here, >because if one looks at some timezones, ST surely means "Summer Time"
(cf. EET-EEST, CET-CEST, WET-WEST), yet given the "DST" I suppose this
is about the wording used in e.g. US timezone names, "Standard Time"
(even though there you'd probably call summer time "DT", not "DST")...
Is there any established way to refer to these that's better?
On 7/19/2026 10:55 AM, The True Melissa wrote:doesn't
Verily, in article <ge0q5lpp3j982qs00c7ej5qgho89n5a7cq@4ax.com>, did
psperson@old.netcom.invalid deliver unto us this message:
On Sat, 18 Jul 2026 22:09:59 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D?Oliveiro
<ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
The whole point with the clock changeovers is precisely to try to
maintain some rough synchronization with that sunrise time, I would
think.
The original point was to keep Defence Plants working longer hours
because the light lasted longer. There was, after all, a war on.
The version I've heard is that it was for farmers, so they would have
more daylight in the winter.
With either version or any other, there are still exactly the same
number of minutes of daylight in any given day. Renumbering them
ofsave or lose anything. If some enterprises want to adjust their hours
operation with the calendar, they should adjust their own schedulesAgreed.
instead of altering the clock.
On Mon, 20 Jul 2026 07:18:51 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
<dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
On 7/19/2026 10:55 AM, The True Melissa wrote:
Verily, in article <ge0q5lpp3j982qs00c7ej5qgho89n5a7cq@4ax.com>, didAgreed.
psperson@old.netcom.invalid deliver unto us this message:
On Sat, 18 Jul 2026 22:09:59 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D?Oliveiro
<ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
The whole point with the clock changeovers is precisely to try to
maintain some rough synchronization with that sunrise time, I would
think.
The original point was to keep Defence Plants working longer hours
because the light lasted longer. There was, after all, a war on.
The version I've heard is that it was for farmers, so they would have
more daylight in the winter.
With either version or any other, there are still exactly the same
number of minutes of daylight in any given day. Renumbering them doesn't >>> save or lose anything. If some enterprises want to adjust their hours of >>> operation with the calendar, they should adjust their own schedules
instead of altering the clock.
Remember the trouble businesses had getting workers to come back to
the office after the pandemic ended?
And you want them to do this twice every year?
I'm not. I think that businesses should simply set their hours however
they want _without_ changing them twice a year.
In article <113mf0v$1jpv7$1@dont-email.me>,
Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
I'm not. I think that businesses should simply set their hours however
they want _without_ changing them twice a year.
That *doesn't help*.
Retail businesses want their customers (nb: not their employees) to
get out of work while there is still daylight, because they spend
more when the sun is out after 6 p.m.
Electric utilities want peak electric consumption to take place when
there is a surplus of low-cost solar energy, not an hour after sunset.
-GAWollman
In article <113mf0v$1jpv7$1@dont-email.me>,
Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
I'm not. I think that businesses should simply set their hours however
they want _without_ changing them twice a year.
That *doesn't help*.
Retail businesses want their customers (nb: not their employees) to
get out of work while there is still daylight, because they spend
more when the sun is out after 6 p.m.
Electric utilities want peak electric consumption to take place when
there is a surplus of low-cost solar energy, not an hour after sunset.
And the Chinese Empire uses one time zone across the entire country.
In article <113mf0v$1jpv7$1@dont-email.me>,-----------^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
I'm not. I think that businesses should simply set their hours however >>they want _without_ changing them twice a year.
That *doesn't help*.
Retail businesses want their customers (nb: not their employees) to
get out of work while there is still daylight, because they spend
more when the sun is out after 6 p.m.
Electric utilities want peak electric consumption to take place when
there is a surplus of low-cost solar energy, not an hour after sunset.
On Mon, 20 Jul 2026 18:38:33 +1000, Gary R. Schmidt wrote:
And the Chinese Empire uses one time zone across the entire country.
Officially, yes.
Informally, certain Western regions simply adjust their working/waking
hours to match more closely with the Sun.
I was told this by a former DEC service engineer, who did occasional
work around that part of the world, back in the day.
On 2026-07-21, Garrett Wollman wrote:
In article <113mf0v$1jpv7$1@dont-email.me>,-----------^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
I'm not. I think that businesses should simply set their hours however
they want _without_ changing them twice a year.
That *doesn't help*.
Retail businesses want their customers (nb: not their employees) to
get out of work while there is still daylight, because they spend
more when the sun is out after 6 p.m.
Electric utilities want peak electric consumption to take place when
there is a surplus of low-cost solar energy, not an hour after sunset.
Wouldn't that be after sunset?
Depends on the time of years and weather but between 4 PM
and 9 PM in SFBA- is the time of highest consumption. An hour after
sunset is when batteries and other production come into play. In
addition we have more wind power in SFBA* and not dependent on
simple solar power. Electrical utilities want and expect peak use
during that highest priced period of time.
*San Francisco Bay Area.
On 7/20/26 23:44, Nuno Silva wrote:
On 2026-07-21, Garrett Wollman wrote:
In article <113mf0v$1jpv7$1@dont-email.me>,-----------^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Dimensional Travelerÿ <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
I'm not. I think that businesses should simply set their hours however >>>> they want _without_ changing them twice a year.
That *doesn't help*.
Retail businesses want their customers (nb: not their employees) to
get out of work while there is still daylight, because they spend
more when the sun is out after 6 p.m.
Electric utilities want peak electric consumption to take place when
there is a surplus of low-cost solar energy, not an hour after sunset.
Wouldn't that be after sunset?
ÿÿÿÿDepends on the time of years and weather but between 4 PM
and 9 PM in SFBA- is the time of highest consumption.ÿ An hour after
sunset is when batteries and other production come into play. In
addition we have more wind power in SFBA* and not dependent on
simple solar power. Electrical utilities want and expect peak use
during that highest priced period of time.
*San Francisco Bay Area.
I "suspect" that you have that price/peak use backwards. The utilities >_set_ the highest prices for when the use is the highest.
Before the days of cheap solar, it used to be that most electric
systems in developed countries saw peak demand at midday. Widespread deployment of behind-the-meter solar shifts that peak to much later in
the day, in summer typically between 6 and 8 p.m., and this causes
problems for grid operators because the ramp up in the evening is
extremely fast -- basically only batteries and inefficient
simple-cycle gas turbines are able to ramp output that fast. The more
solar generation between those hours (which is determined by how high
in the sky the sun is) the cheaper the real-time price of energy and
the less consumers need to pay to keep inefficient generators
available "just in case".
-GAWollman
On Fri, 17 Jul 2026 14:43:32 -0500, Lynn McGuire wrote:
Gonna be dark until 8 am or so in the winter. Still, stopping the
stupid time changes will be a relief.
If you?re far enough from the equator for it to matter, then it
becomes a choice between waking up when it?s still dark, versus
staying in bed while it gets light. Or alternatively, going to bed
when it?s still light, versus staying up after it?s already dark.
Which would you prefer? Because you can?t legislate either the tilt of
the Earth?s axis, or the way human biological clocks work.
On 7/17/2026 11:44 PM, Lawrence D?Oliveiro wrote:
On Fri, 17 Jul 2026 14:43:32 -0500, Lynn McGuire wrote:
Gonna be dark until 8 am or so in the winter. Still, stopping the
stupid time changes will be a relief.
If you?re far enough from the equator for it to matter, then it
becomes a choice between waking up when it?s still dark, versus
staying in bed while it gets light. Or alternatively, going to bed
when it?s still light, versus staying up after it?s already dark.
Which would you prefer? Because you can?t legislate either the tilt of
the Earth?s axis, or the way human biological clocks work.
What I find stupid about the whole thing is the suggestion is to go permanent DST.ÿ What is wrong with Standard Time?ÿ Either way you can't avoid people having to be awake and doing things when the sun is below
the horizon!
Verily, in article <ge0q5lpp3j982qs00c7ej5qgho89n5a7cq@4ax.com>, did psperson@old.netcom.invalid deliver unto us this message:
On Sat, 18 Jul 2026 22:09:59 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D?Oliveiro
<ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
The whole point with the clock changeovers is precisely to try to
maintain some rough synchronization with that sunrise time, I would
think.
The original point was to keep Defence Plants working longer hours
because the light lasted longer. There was, after all, a war on.
The version I've heard is that it was for farmers, so they would have
more daylight in the winter.
With either version or any other, there are still exactly the same
number of minutes of daylight in any given day. Renumbering them doesn't
save or lose anything. If some enterprises want to adjust their hours of operation with the calendar, they should adjust their own schedules
instead of altering the clock.
On 7/17/26 23:44, Lawrence D?Oliveiro wrote:
On Fri, 17 Jul 2026 14:43:32 -0500, Lynn McGuire wrote:
Gonna be dark until 8 am or so in the winter. Still, stopping the
stupid time changes will be a relief.
If you?re far enough from the equator for it to matter, then it
becomes a choice between waking up when it?s still dark, versus
staying in bed while it gets light. Or alternatively, going to bed
when it?s still light, versus staying up after it?s already dark.
Which would you prefer? Because you can?t legislate either the tilt of
the Earth?s axis, or the way human biological clocks work.
ÿÿÿÿWell twice a year, presently, human biological clocks
are insulted. Whether we move to DST or ST it will obviate the insults.
For hundreds of years we had to wait until sunrise to do anything but
now we have electrical lighting so we have street lights to find our
way to work or at the farm to find our way to the barn to take care of
the animals. Headlights on the tractors will help us plow in the dark
if we don't shortly leave it to the LLM running the plow.
Shifting time only makes sense at mid-latitudes.
On 7/19/2026 1:55 PM, The True Melissa wrote:
Verily, in article <ge0q5lpp3j982qs00c7ej5qgho89n5a7cq@4ax.com>, did
psperson@old.netcom.invalid deliver unto us this message:
On Sat, 18 Jul 2026 22:09:59 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D?Oliveiro
<ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
The whole point with the clock changeovers is precisely to try to
maintain some rough synchronization with that sunrise time, I would
think.
The original point was to keep Defence Plants working longer hours
because the light lasted longer. There was, after all, a war on.
The version I've heard is that it was for farmers, so they would have
more daylight in the winter.
Might have worked for crop farmers, but cows and other livestock didn't
get the message.
With either version or any other, there are still exactly the same
number of minutes of daylight in any given day. Renumbering them doesn't
save or lose anything. If some enterprises want to adjust their hours of
operation with the calendar, they should adjust their own schedules
instead of altering the clock.
Moving things such that outdoor activity starts after it starts to get
light makes some sense.
On 7/18/2026 5:18 PM, BobbieSellers wrote:
On 7/17/26 23:44, Lawrence D?Oliveiro wrote:
On Fri, 17 Jul 2026 14:43:32 -0500, Lynn McGuire wrote:
Gonna be dark until 8 am or so in the winter. Still, stopping the
stupid time changes will be a relief.
If you?re far enough from the equator for it to matter, then it
becomes a choice between waking up when it?s still dark, versus
staying in bed while it gets light. Or alternatively, going to bed
when it?s still light, versus staying up after it?s already dark.
Which would you prefer? Because you can?t legislate either the tilt of
the Earth?s axis, or the way human biological clocks work.
ÿÿÿÿWell twice a year, presently, human biological clocks
are insulted. Whether we move to DST or ST it will obviate the insults.
For hundreds of years we had to wait until sunrise to do anything but
now we have electrical lighting so we have street lights to find our
way to work or at the farm to find our way to the barn to take care of
the animals.
Headlights on the tractors will help us plow in the dark
if we don't shortly leave it to the LLM running the plow.
I don't think the cows will go along with this.
Dairy cattle like to get milked twice a day. They don't much
care about whether it is light or dark out - which actually
argues against a time change. My Uncle milked at 5 and 5 ST
(6 and 6 during DST).
Livestock farmers care because of coordination. They run on their
animals' schedules, but their suppliers, their help, and the markets
in which they sell their goods all run on official time.
I'd prefer what ever would cause solar noon and clock noon to be
closest together.
On Thu, 23 Jul 2026 21:30:06 -0000 (UTC), Garrett Wollman wrote:
Livestock farmers care because of coordination. They run on their
animals' schedules, but their suppliers, their help, and the markets
in which they sell their goods all run on official time.
Somehow, I don?t think that works. If the milk-trucks are going to
turn up an hour early, they can insist on ?official time? till they?re
blue in the face, but the cows still won?t be ready for milking an
hour earlier than their usual time.
On 7/23/2026 6:12 PM, Lawrence D?Oliveiro wrote:
On Thu, 23 Jul 2026 21:30:06 -0000 (UTC), Garrett Wollman wrote:
Livestock farmers care because of coordination. They run on their
animals' schedules, but their suppliers, their help, and the markets
in which they sell their goods all run on official time.
Somehow, I don?t think that works. If the milk-trucks are going to
turn up an hour early, they can insist on ?official time? till they?re
blue in the face, but the cows still won?t be ready for milking an
hour earlier than their usual time.
Even 60 years ago when I was but a young lad growing up in farm country
the milk went into holding tanks so the cows couldn't care less when the >truck shows up.
On 7/23/2026 6:12 PM, Lawrence D?Oliveiro wrote:
On Thu, 23 Jul 2026 21:30:06 -0000 (UTC), Garrett Wollman wrote:
Livestock farmers care because of coordination. They run on their
animals' schedules, but their suppliers, their help, and the markets
in which they sell their goods all run on official time.
Somehow, I don?t think that works. If the milk-trucks are going to
turn up an hour early, they can insist on ?official time? till they?re
blue in the face, but the cows still won?t be ready for milking an
hour earlier than their usual time.
Even 60 years ago when I was but a young lad growing up in farm country
the milk went into holding tanks so the cows couldn't care less when the >truck shows up.
Jay Morris <morrisj@epsilon3.me> writes:going to
On 7/23/2026 6:12 PM, Lawrence D?Oliveiro wrote:
On Thu, 23 Jul 2026 21:30:06 -0000 (UTC), Garrett Wollman wrote:
Livestock farmers care because of coordination. They run on their
animals' schedules, but their suppliers, their help, and the markets
in which they sell their goods all run on official time.
Somehow, I don?t think that works. If the milk-trucks are
time?? till they?return up an hour early, they can insist on ?official
milking anblue in the face, but the cows still won?t be ready for
hour earlier than their usual time.
Even 60 years ago when I was but a young lad growing up in farm country
thethe milk went into holding tanks so the cows couldn't care less when
50s) eventuallytruck shows up.
When I was growing up, my grandfathers didn't have a holding tank, just
milk cans. Which were stored in a pool of spring/well water until they
could be transported to the creamery. My Uncle (who drove a milk
truck[*] before purchasing a farm after getting out of the USAF in the
got a bulk tank in the 1970s along with a piped milking system where Ino longer
needed to carry the milk buckets from the stall back to the milkhouse.
[*] https://www.marten.com/about/--
On Fri, 24 Jul 2026 14:44:55 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:
Jay Morris <morrisj@epsilon3.me> writes:going to
On 7/23/2026 6:12 PM, Lawrence D=E2=80=99Oliveiro wrote:
On Thu, 23 Jul 2026 21:30:06 -0000 (UTC), Garrett Wollman wrote:
=20
Livestock farmers care because of coordination. They run on their=20
animals' schedules, but their suppliers, their help, and the markets >>>>> in which they sell their goods all run on official time.
Somehow, I don=E2=80=99t think that works. If the milk-trucks are =
time=E2=80? till they=E2=80=99return up an hour early, they can insist on =E2=80=9Cofficial =
milking anblue in the face, but the cows still won=E2=80=99t be ready for =
no longerhour earlier than their usual time.
Even 60 years ago when I was but a young lad growing up in farm country= >=20
the milk went into holding tanks so the cows couldn't care less when = >the=20
truck shows up.
When I was growing up, my grandfathers didn't have a holding tank, just >>milk cans. Which were stored in a pool of spring/well water until they >>could be transported to the creamery. My Uncle (who drove a milk >>truck[*] before purchasing a farm after getting out of the USAF in the = >50s) eventually
got a bulk tank in the 1970s along with a piped milking system where I =
needed to carry the milk buckets from the stall back to the milkhouse.
Which shows that progress and innovation are not limited to computers.
IIRC, there are (or were, pre-DOGE) trying to teach cows to go to the >bathroom. The point, of course, was to capture the methane.
Not sure I follow. Most of the methane emitted by cattle
production is from the digestive system and is emitted by belching
(a very small percentage is emitted via flatulence).
Neither urine or fecal emission produce methane directly,
although some small amount may be produced as the manure decays.
People's ideas about how farming works seems to be frozen at about
the era of Lassie Come Home.
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:markets
On Fri, 24 Jul 2026 14:44:55 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) >>wrote:
Jay Morris <morrisj@epsilon3.me> writes:
On 7/23/2026 6:12 PM, Lawrence D=E2=80=99Oliveiro wrote:
On Thu, 23 Jul 2026 21:30:06 -0000 (UTC), Garrett Wollman wrote:
=20
Livestock farmers care because of coordination. They run on their
animals' schedules, but their suppliers, their help, and the
are =in which they sell their goods all run on official time.=20
Somehow, I don=E2=80=99t think that works. If the milk-trucks
for =going to
turn up an hour early, they can insist on =E2=80=9Cofficial = >>time=E2=80? till they=E2=80=99re
blue in the face, but the cows still won=E2=80=99t be ready
country=milking an
hour earlier than their usual time.
Even 60 years ago when I was but a young lad growing up in farm
==20
the milk went into holding tanks so the cows couldn't care less when
justthe=20
truck shows up.
When I was growing up, my grandfathers didn't have a holding tank,
theymilk cans. Which were stored in a pool of spring/well water until
=could be transported to the creamery. My Uncle (who drove a milk >>>truck[*] before purchasing a farm after getting out of the USAF in the
I =50s) eventually
got a bulk tank in the 1970s along with a piped milking system where
no longer
needed to carry the milk buckets from the stall back to the milkhouse.
Which shows that progress and innovation are not limited to computers.
IIRC, there are (or were, pre-DOGE) trying to teach cows to go to the >>bathroom. The point, of course, was to capture the methane.
Not sure I follow. Most of the methane emitted by cattle
production is from the digestive system and is emitted by belching
(a very small percentage is emitted via flatulence).
Neither urine or fecal emission produce methane directly,
although some small amount may be produced as the manure decays.
Dairy cattle like to get milked twice a day. They don't much
care about whether it is light or dark out - which actually
argues against a time change. My Uncle milked at 5 and 5 ST
(6 and 6 during DST).
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