• Re: "AI companies are buying up rare and out-of-print books and shreddi

    From Lawrence D?Oliveiro@3:633/10 to All on Sun Aug 9 23:29:18 2026
    Subject: Re: "AI companies are buying up rare and out-of-print books and shredding them"

    On Wed, 29 Jul 2026 16:52:13 -0000 (UTC), Don wrote:

    ...the idea that the ancients had amazing scientific
    knowledge that was lost when the Library of Alexandria
    was destroyed that we still haven't recovered today is
    a pure fantasy.

    Antikythera Mechanism, anybody?

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Lawrence D?Oliveiro@3:633/10 to All on Sun Aug 9 23:30:19 2026
    Subject: Re: "AI companies are buying up rare and out-of-print books and shredding them"

    On Wed, 29 Jul 2026 16:51:38 -0000 (UTC), Don wrote:

    Dated duples (left vs. right, democrat vs. republican, liberal vs. conservative, communism vs. capitalism, blah-blah-blah) are
    obsolete.

    We don?t see a lot of that in multi-party democracies.

    In other words, the good kind of democracies.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Titus G@3:633/10 to All on Mon Aug 10 13:27:52 2026
    Subject: Re: "AI companies are buying up rare and out-of-print books and shredding them"

    On 10/08/2026 11:29, Lawrence D?Oliveiro wrote:
    On Wed, 29 Jul 2026 16:52:13 -0000 (UTC), Don wrote:

    ...the idea that the ancients had amazing scientific
    knowledge that was lost when the Library of Alexandria
    was destroyed that we still haven't recovered today is
    a pure fantasy.

    Antikythera Mechanism, anybody?

    OBSF. Little, Big. John Crowley. (In which the Orrery was a perpetual
    motion machine.)

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Paul S Person@3:633/10 to All on Mon Aug 10 08:40:18 2026
    Subject: Re: "AI companies are buying up rare and out-of-print books and shredding them"

    On Sun, 9 Aug 2026 23:30:19 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D?Oliveiro
    <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:

    On Wed, 29 Jul 2026 16:51:38 -0000 (UTC), Don wrote:

    Dated duples (left vs. right, democrat vs. republican, liberal vs.
    conservative, communism vs. capitalism, blah-blah-blah) are
    obsolete.

    We don?t see a lot of that in multi-party democracies.

    In other words, the good kind of democracies.

    I would say something about your use of "good", but a system where you
    can have a vote and then find that you don't have a government becuase
    nobody can form one might have certain advantages.

    Well, as long as your aren't invaded. Having a government is
    /definitely/ advantageous if you are invaded.
    --
    "Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
    Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
    Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Paul S Person@3:633/10 to All on Mon Aug 10 08:45:26 2026
    Subject: Re: "AI companies are buying up rare and out-of-print books and shredding them"

    On Wed, 29 Jul 2026 16:52:13 -0000 (UTC), "Don" <g@crcomp.net> wrote:

    The True Melissa <thetruemelissa@gmail.comnospam> wrote:

    <snippo the ugly truth about AI>
    <back in the 50s, I had English teachers who would fainted at the very
    /idea/ of destroying a book>

    "A modern-day version of the destruction of Alexandria?s library."

    That's a very foolish statement on the part of whoever made it. The
    problem with burning books in the old days was that there were so few
    copies that the book might be genuinely lost. That's just not an issue
    today. Except in the rare case of a rare book, destroying one book-as-
    object has no effect on the book-as-text.

    IIRC, in most cases where I have seen the destruction of the
    Alexandria library brought up, it was as Just Another Christian
    Atrocity.

    IOW, it was part of anti-religious fanaticism.

    But that isn't the case here; it is being referenced in regards to a
    true (and modern) atrocity.
    --
    "Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
    Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
    Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Scott Lurndal@3:633/10 to All on Mon Aug 10 17:14:39 2026
    Subject: Re: "AI companies are buying up rare and out-of-print books and shredding them"

    Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
    On Wed, 29 Jul 2026 16:52:13 -0000 (UTC), "Don" <g@crcomp.net> wrote:

    The True Melissa <thetruemelissa@gmail.comnospam> wrote:

    <snippo the ugly truth about AI>
    <back in the 50s, I had English teachers who would fainted at the very
    /idea/ of destroying a book>

    "A modern-day version of the destruction of Alexandria?s library."

    That's a very foolish statement on the part of whoever made it. The
    problem with burning books in the old days was that there were so few
    copies that the book might be genuinely lost. That's just not an issue
    today. Except in the rare case of a rare book, destroying one book-as-
    object has no effect on the book-as-text.



    But that isn't the case here; it is being referenced in regards to a
    true (and modern) atrocity.

    Debunking the significance of the destruction of the library of alexandria:

    https://talesoftimesforgotten.com/2020/04/04/what-was-really-in-the-library-of-alexandria/

    "Unfortunately, in the ancient world, the only way to copy a
    text was by hand, which was a very long, tedious, and often
    expensive process. Consequently, many texts were not copied."

    "The reason why so many texts have been lost from antiquity
    is not because one library burned, but rather because the texts
    that have not survived were not copied."


    There is no modern atrocity related to scanning modernt printed material.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From The True Melissa@3:633/10 to All on Mon Aug 10 14:28:49 2026
    Subject: Re: "AI companies are buying up rare and out-of-print books and shredding them"

    Paul S Person wrote in article
    <58sj7lp8ph9aqtu9e3jrf9houh7a6b3rld@4ax.com>:
    <back in the 50s, I had English teachers who would fainted at the very
    /idea/ of destroying a book>


    Sounds like an easy way to get out of a test.

    --
    The meek shall inherit, we're told,
    But I'm not so easily sold.
    For supposing they should,
    It would do them no good --
    They'd lose it at once to the bold.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From The True Melissa@3:633/10 to All on Mon Aug 10 14:31:11 2026
    Subject: Re: "AI companies are buying up rare and out-of-print books and shredding them"

    Scott Lurndal wrote in article <3GneS.18152$x8oc.12867@fx04.iad>:
    There is no modern atrocity related to scanning modernt printed material.


    That's the part that slays me about this "scandal." Everyone's
    acting like some horror is occuring, but all that really happened
    is that some companies bought some books. Nothing was removed
    from the sphere of ideas, any more than it is if you or I buy
    some books.

    AI definitely sucks IMO, but this isn't one of the reasons why.

    --
    The meek shall inherit, we're told,
    But I'm not so easily sold.
    For supposing they should,
    It would do them no good --
    They'd lose it at once to the bold.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From BobbieSellers@3:633/10 to All on Mon Aug 10 15:35:16 2026
    Subject: Re: "AI companies are buying up rare and out-of-print books and shredding them"

    On 8/10/26 11:28, The True Melissa wrote:
    Paul S Person wrote in article
    <58sj7lp8ph9aqtu9e3jrf9houh7a6b3rld@4ax.com>:
    <back in the 50s, I had English teachers who would fainted at the very
    /idea/ of destroying a book>


    Sounds like an easy way to get out of a test.


    Unless it was on the Index of Unapproved books then maintained
    by the RC censors my RC teachers would have caused much pain to the
    destroyer of books. Rulers to the knuckles at the very least.

    I have broken with friends over dismantling of loaned
    manga. Tossing periodicals is very hard for me to do.

    bliss

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Scott Dorsey@3:633/10 to All on Mon Aug 10 20:08:17 2026
    Subject: Re: "AI companies are buying up rare and out-of-print books and shredding them"

    The True Melissa <thetruemelissa@gmail.comNOSPAM> wrote:

    That's the part that slays me about this "scandal." Everyone's
    acting like some horror is occuring, but all that really happened
    is that some companies bought some books. Nothing was removed
    from the sphere of ideas, any more than it is if you or I buy
    some books.

    Depends what the books are. If they are Harlequin paperbacks, then there
    are plenty of other copies out there and destroying one or two isn't going
    to hurt anything.

    If they are out of print textbooks that are primary sources, and there
    aren't very many copies left in circulation, it's a bad thing.

    If it's a primary source that hardly anyone reads anymore but where there
    are only a few copies left (like the book on magnetic tape manufacture
    that I was looking for recently; the LoC didn't even have a copy), then
    it's a disaster.
    --scott

    --
    "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Gary R. Schmidt@3:633/10 to All on Tue Aug 11 17:39:53 2026
    Subject: Re: "AI companies are buying up rare and out-of-print books and shredding them"

    On 11/08/2026 01:45, Paul S Person wrote:
    On Wed, 29 Jul 2026 16:52:13 -0000 (UTC), "Don" <g@crcomp.net> wrote:

    The True Melissa <thetruemelissa@gmail.comnospam> wrote:

    <snippo the ugly truth about AI>
    <back in the 50s, I had English teachers who would fainted at the very
    /idea/ of destroying a book>

    "A modern-day version of the destruction of Alexandria?s library."

    That's a very foolish statement on the part of whoever made it. The
    problem with burning books in the old days was that there were so few
    copies that the book might be genuinely lost. That's just not an issue
    today. Except in the rare case of a rare book, destroying one book-as-
    object has no effect on the book-as-text.

    IIRC, in most cases where I have seen the destruction of the
    Alexandria library brought up, it was as Just Another Christian
    Atrocity.

    IOW, it was part of anti-religious fanaticism.

    But that isn't the case here; it is being referenced in regards to a
    true (and modern) atrocity.

    Yes, but *which* burning of the Library at Alexandra is being referred to?

    IIRC there were at least four.

    Cheers,
    Gary B-)

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Blueshirt@3:633/10 to All on Tue Aug 11 09:12:35 2026
    Subject: Re: "AI companies are buying up rare and out-of-print books and shredding them"

    Scott Dorsey wrote:

    The True Melissa <thetruemelissa@gmail.comNOSPAM> wrote:

    That's the part that slays me about this "scandal."
    Everyone's acting like some horror is occuring, but all that
    really happened is that some companies bought some books.
    Nothing was removed from the sphere of ideas, any more than
    it is if you or I buy some books.

    Depends what the books are. If they are Harlequin paperbacks,
    then there are plenty of other copies out there and destroying
    one or two isn't going to hurt anything.

    Imagine a future where AI chat bots have being trained on the
    contents of Harlequin novels...

    [Man seeking financial advice]

    "Your credit score is bad but I have found a solution: a
    contractual marriage with this heiress. Her family disapproves
    of you, your past is scandalous, but the chemistry is
    undeniable. Go here ... for some love, and tax benefits."


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From The True Melissa@3:633/10 to All on Tue Aug 11 05:18:05 2026
    Subject: Re: "AI companies are buying up rare and out-of-print books and shredding them"

    Scott Dorsey wrote in article <115dp5h$nu0$1@panix2.panix.com>:
    Depends what the books are. If they are Harlequin paperbacks, then there
    are plenty of other copies out there and destroying one or two isn't going
    to hurt anything.

    If they are out of print textbooks that are primary sources, and there
    aren't very many copies left in circulation, it's a bad thing.


    The latter books aren't sitting in warehouses. They're generally
    in archives.

    --
    The meek shall inherit, we're told,
    But I'm not so easily sold.
    For supposing they should,
    It would do them no good --
    They'd lose it at once to the bold.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Scott Dorsey@3:633/10 to All on Tue Aug 11 09:38:28 2026
    Subject: Re: "AI companies are buying up rare and out-of-print books and shredding them"

    Blueshirt <blueshirt@indigo.news> wrote:
    Scott Dorsey wrote:

    Depends what the books are. If they are Harlequin paperbacks,
    then there are plenty of other copies out there and destroying
    one or two isn't going to hurt anything.

    Imagine a future where AI chat bots have being trained on the
    contents of Harlequin novels...

    [Man seeking financial advice]

    "Your credit score is bad but I have found a solution: a
    contractual marriage with this heiress. Her family disapproves
    of you, your past is scandalous, but the chemistry is
    undeniable. Go here ... for some love, and tax benefits."

    Isn't that kind of the plot of the Murderbot Diaries? Or at least a small
    part of it? I would buy the book where that happens.
    --scott
    --
    "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Scott Dorsey@3:633/10 to All on Tue Aug 11 09:43:10 2026
    Subject: Re: "AI companies are buying up rare and out-of-print books and shredding them"

    The True Melissa <thetruemelissa@gmail.comNOSPAM> wrote:
    Scott Dorsey wrote in article <115dp5h$nu0$1@panix2.panix.com>:
    Depends what the books are. If they are Harlequin paperbacks, then there
    are plenty of other copies out there and destroying one or two isn't going >> to hurt anything.

    If they are out of print textbooks that are primary sources, and there
    aren't very many copies left in circulation, it's a bad thing.

    The latter books aren't sitting in warehouses. They're generally
    in archives.

    I hope so, but we have a generation of scientists and engineers who are
    dying off and their books are going up for sale (and often into trash bins, sadly) rather than being archived.

    Some books that used to be common standard references like Tremaine's Audio Cyclopedia have become rare and valuable. Others like the RCA Radiotron Handbook have been made available online in such convenient forms that the originals are no longer worth much. There's a lot of change going on in the technical books world right now.

    I do worry about there being books out there which are not available to a person wanting to read them, with the information in them only available through having been consumed by an AI model.
    --scott


    --
    "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Paul S Person@3:633/10 to All on Tue Aug 11 09:03:56 2026
    Subject: Re: "AI companies are buying up rare and out-of-print books and shredding them"

    On Tue, 11 Aug 2026 17:39:53 +1000, "Gary R. Schmidt"
    <grschmidt@acm.org> wrote:

    On 11/08/2026 01:45, Paul S Person wrote:
    On Wed, 29 Jul 2026 16:52:13 -0000 (UTC), "Don" <g@crcomp.net> wrote:

    The True Melissa <thetruemelissa@gmail.comnospam> wrote:

    <snippo the ugly truth about AI>
    <back in the 50s, I had English teachers who would fainted at the very
    /idea/ of destroying a book>

    "A modern-day version of the destruction of Alexandria?s library."

    That's a very foolish statement on the part of whoever made it. The
    problem with burning books in the old days was that there were so
    few
    copies that the book might be genuinely lost. That's just not an
    issue
    today. Except in the rare case of a rare book, destroying one
    book-as-
    object has no effect on the book-as-text.

    IIRC, in most cases where I have seen the destruction of the
    Alexandria library brought up, it was as Just Another Christian
    Atrocity.

    IOW, it was part of anti-religious fanaticism.

    But that isn't the case here; it is being referenced in regards to a
    true (and modern) atrocity.

    Yes, but *which* burning of the Library at Alexandra is being referred
    to?

    IIRC there were at least four.

    Whichever one they can blame on Christians, of course.

    If more than one qualifies, then whichever one they think of first, I
    suppose.

    I'm attempting /here/ to provide one answer to the question "why is
    the burning of the Alexandria library such a big deal?".

    I am always amazed at the ability of people to come with excuses for
    clearly barbaric behavior. Or even behavior which is, as we said at
    one point, "rude, crude, and socially unacceptible".
    --
    "Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
    Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
    Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From BobbieSellers@3:633/10 to All on Tue Aug 11 09:26:30 2026
    Subject: Re: "AI companies are buying up rare and out-of-print books and shredding them"

    On 8/11/26 09:03, Paul S Person wrote:
    On Tue, 11 Aug 2026 17:39:53 +1000, "Gary R. Schmidt"
    <grschmidt@acm.org> wrote:

    On 11/08/2026 01:45, Paul S Person wrote:
    On Wed, 29 Jul 2026 16:52:13 -0000 (UTC), "Don" <g@crcomp.net> wrote:

    The True Melissa <thetruemelissa@gmail.comnospam> wrote:

    <snippo the ugly truth about AI>
    <back in the 50s, I had English teachers who would fainted at the very
    /idea/ of destroying a book>

    "A modern-day version of the destruction of Alexandria?s library."

    That's a very foolish statement on the part of whoever made it. The
    problem with burning books in the old days was that there were so few >>>>> copies that the book might be genuinely lost. That's just not an issue >>>>> today. Except in the rare case of a rare book, destroying one book-as- >>>>> object has no effect on the book-as-text.

    IIRC, in most cases where I have seen the destruction of the
    Alexandria library brought up, it was as Just Another Christian
    Atrocity.

    IOW, it was part of anti-religious fanaticism.

    But that isn't the case here; it is being referenced in regards to a
    true (and modern) atrocity.

    Yes, but *which* burning of the Library at Alexandra is being referred to? >>
    IIRC there were at least four.

    Whichever one they can blame on Christians, of course.

    If more than one qualifies, then whichever one they think of first, I suppose.

    I'm attempting /here/ to provide one answer to the question "why is
    the burning of the Alexandria library such a big deal?".

    I am always amazed at the ability of people to come with excuses for
    clearly barbaric behavior. Or even behavior which is, as we said at
    one point, "rude, crude, and socially unacceptible".

    Yes the monotheistic barbarians who skinned Hypatia with
    the edges of sea shells were only doing what their priests them
    to do with the heretical woman.

    bliss


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From oldernow@3:633/10 to All on Tue Aug 11 16:36:25 2026
    Subject: Re: "AI companies are buying up rare and out-of-print books and shredding them"

    In article <5phm7l1pl3fobniekaria2a1n6mjaoim2r@4ax.com>,
    Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:

    I am always amazed at the ability of people
    to come with excuses for clearly barbaric
    behavior. Or even behavior which is, as we
    said at one point, "rude, crude, and socially
    unacceptible".

    I am always even more amazed that people who've
    no reason (hope, maybe faith, but not reason)
    to believe their neighbors can somehow believe
    "history", somehow imagining that information
    passed through hordes of people at least as
    untrustworthy with truth as the neighbors had
    their grubby, biased hands on it every step
    of the transmission-through-time way....
    --
    v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v
    | usenet verdict on adam h kerman |
    | fuckchop+idiot+kook+scumbag+troll |
    ^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From William Hyde@3:633/10 to All on Tue Aug 11 16:49:02 2026
    Subject: Re: "AI companies are buying up rare and out-of-print books and shredding them"

    Scott Dorsey wrote:
    The True Melissa <thetruemelissa@gmail.comNOSPAM> wrote:
    Scott Dorsey wrote in article <115dp5h$nu0$1@panix2.panix.com>:
    Depends what the books are. If they are Harlequin paperbacks, then there >>> are plenty of other copies out there and destroying one or two isn't going >>> to hurt anything.

    If they are out of print textbooks that are primary sources, and there
    aren't very many copies left in circulation, it's a bad thing.

    The latter books aren't sitting in warehouses. They're generally
    in archives.

    I hope so, but we have a generation of scientists and engineers who are
    dying off and their books are going up for sale (and often into trash bins, sadly) rather than being archived.

    Some books that used to be common standard references like Tremaine's Audio Cyclopedia have become rare and valuable. Others like the RCA Radiotron Handbook have been made available online in such convenient forms that the originals are no longer worth much. There's a lot of change going on in the technical books world right now.

    I bought Divinsky's "Rings and Radicals" for 98 cents. Twenty years ago
    I was offered $75 for it. When I mentioned this I was offered $100 by
    someone else.

    Well, that was U of Toronto press, probably a small run. But my second
    year statistical physics text was part of the Berkley physics series. a
    large print run, and it's been trading for several hundred dollars (and
    cost me $7).

    In the late Roman empire the learned complained that they could no
    longer find copies of important texts. The scribes were all Christian
    now and were spending all their time copying Christian texts which were naturally in great demand. Better another copy of "The Shepherd" than Aristotle's "On Justice". Middle ages coming up, we don't need no
    steenking justice.

    (I first mistyped "Statistical physics" and the spell checker gave me "Fantastical physics". I regret correcting that).


    William Hyde


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From William Hyde@3:633/10 to All on Tue Aug 11 16:53:37 2026
    Subject: Re: "AI companies are buying up rare and out-of-print books and shredding them"

    BobbieSellers wrote:
    On 8/11/26 09:03, Paul S Person wrote:
    On Tue, 11 Aug 2026 17:39:53 +1000, "Gary R. Schmidt"
    <grschmidt@acm.org> wrote:

    On 11/08/2026 01:45, Paul S Person wrote:
    On Wed, 29 Jul 2026 16:52:13 -0000 (UTC), "Don" <g@crcomp.net> wrote:

    The True Melissa <thetruemelissa@gmail.comnospam> wrote:

    <snippo the ugly truth about AI>
    <back in the 50s, I had English teachers who would fainted at the very >>>> /idea/ of destroying a book>

    "A modern-day version of the destruction of Alexandria?s library." >>>>>>
    That's a very foolish statement on the part of whoever made it. The >>>>>> problem with burning books in the old days was that there were so few >>>>>> copies that the book might be genuinely lost. That's just not an
    issue
    today. Except in the rare case of a rare book, destroying one
    book-as-
    object has no effect on the book-as-text.

    IIRC, in most cases where I have seen the destruction of the
    Alexandria library brought up, it was as Just Another Christian
    Atrocity.

    IOW, it was part of anti-religious fanaticism.

    But that isn't the case here; it is being referenced in regards to a
    true (and modern) atrocity.

    Yes, but *which* burning of the Library at Alexandra is being
    referred to?

    IIRC there were at least four.

    Whichever one they can blame on Christians, of course.

    If more than one qualifies, then whichever one they think of first, I
    suppose.

    I'm attempting /here/ to provide one answer to the question "why is
    the burning of the Alexandria library such a big deal?".

    I am always amazed at the ability of people to come with excuses for
    clearly barbaric behavior. Or even behavior which is, as we said at
    one point, "rude, crude, and socially unacceptible".

    ˙˙˙˙Yes the monotheistic barbarians who skinned Hypatia with
    the edges of sea shells were only doing what their priests them
    to do with the heretical woman.

    Not the only person murdered (in part) for beliefs that would later
    become orthodox.

    ObSF "Helliconia Winter".

    William Hyde


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Paul S Person@3:633/10 to All on Wed Aug 12 09:00:08 2026
    Subject: Re: "AI companies are buying up rare and out-of-print books and shredding them"

    On Tue, 11 Aug 2026 16:49:02 -0400, William Hyde
    <wthyde1953@gmail.com> wrote:

    Scott Dorsey wrote:
    The True Melissa <thetruemelissa@gmail.comNOSPAM> wrote:
    Scott Dorsey wrote in article <115dp5h$nu0$1@panix2.panix.com>:
    Depends what the books are. If they are Harlequin paperbacks, then
    there
    are plenty of other copies out there and destroying one or two isn't
    going
    to hurt anything.

    If they are out of print textbooks that are primary sources, and
    there
    aren't very many copies left in circulation, it's a bad thing.

    The latter books aren't sitting in warehouses. They're generally
    in archives.

    I hope so, but we have a generation of scientists and engineers who
    are
    dying off and their books are going up for sale (and often into trash
    bins,
    sadly) rather than being archived.

    Some books that used to be common standard references like Tremaine's
    Audio
    Cyclopedia have become rare and valuable. Others like the RCA
    Radiotron
    Handbook have been made available online in such convenient forms that
    the
    originals are no longer worth much. There's a lot of change going on
    in the
    technical books world right now.

    I bought Divinsky's "Rings and Radicals" for 98 cents. Twenty years ago

    I was offered $75 for it. When I mentioned this I was offered $100 by >someone else.

    Well, that was U of Toronto press, probably a small run. But my second
    year statistical physics text was part of the Berkley physics series. a >large print run, and it's been trading for several hundred dollars (and
    cost me $7).

    In the late Roman empire the learned complained that they could no
    longer find copies of important texts. The scribes were all Christian
    now and were spending all their time copying Christian texts which were >naturally in great demand. Better another copy of "The Shepherd" than >Aristotle's "On Justice". Middle ages coming up, we don't need no
    steenking justice.

    IIRC, technology has marched on to the point that some of those older
    works can now be read.

    IIRC, the Arabs preserved a fair amount of them. In Arabic, from which
    they were translated into Latin. And the resurgence of reading
    originally-Greek books in Greek turned up copies in the East in some
    ncases.

    Ptolemy's /Almagest/ is probably the best known example.

    (I first mistyped "Statistical physics" and the spell checker gave me >"Fantastical physics". I regret correcting that).
    --
    "Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
    Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
    Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Steve Coltrin@3:633/10 to All on Wed Aug 12 10:34:24 2026
    Subject: Re: "AI companies are buying up rare and out-of-print books and shredding them"

    begin fnord
    William Hyde <wthyde1953@gmail.com> writes:

    (I first mistyped "Statistical physics" and the spell checker gave me "Fantastical physics". I regret correcting that).

    "Ludwig Boltzmann, who spent much of his life studying statistical
    mechanics, died in 1906, by his own hand. Paul Ehrenfest, carrying on
    his work, died similarly in 1933. Now it is our turn to study
    statistical mechanics."

    - _States of Matter_, David L. Goodstein

    --
    Steve Coltrin spcoltri@omcl.org
    "A group known as the League of Human Dignity helped arrange for Deuel
    to be driven to a local livestock scale, where he could be weighed."
    - Associated Press

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From William Hyde@3:633/10 to All on Wed Aug 12 15:44:50 2026
    Subject: Re: "AI companies are buying up rare and out-of-print books and shredding them"

    Paul S Person wrote:
    On Tue, 11 Aug 2026 16:49:02 -0400, William Hyde


    IIRC, technology has marched on to the point that some of those older
    works can now be read.

    I may have mentioned it before, but I am hoping that we will find a
    copy of Claudius' works on the Etruscans (a history and a grammar, I
    believe) before long.

    Vesuvius erupted only a generation after he was emperor, and I suspect
    that the status-seeking rich of Herculaneum would have works by the
    later emperor (and now God) on their shelves, even if they had no
    intention of ever reading them.

    I've been waiting about thirty years for this technique to work.
    Results are coming out, but painfully slowly.


    William Hyde


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From William Hyde@3:633/10 to All on Wed Aug 12 15:48:35 2026
    Subject: Re: "AI companies are buying up rare and out-of-print books and shredding them"

    Steve Coltrin wrote:
    begin fnord
    William Hyde <wthyde1953@gmail.com> writes:

    (I first mistyped "Statistical physics" and the spell checker gave me
    "Fantastical physics". I regret correcting that).

    "Ludwig Boltzmann, who spent much of his life studying statistical
    mechanics, died in 1906, by his own hand. Paul Ehrenfest, carrying on
    his work, died similarly in 1933. Now it is our turn to study
    statistical mechanics."

    - _States of Matter_, David L. Goodstein

    I took good care not to get 100% in either course. Hence my survival.

    In fact, I took a bit too much care. Way too much.

    William Hyde


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From BobbieSellers@3:633/10 to All on Wed Aug 12 14:57:35 2026
    Subject: Re: "AI companies are buying up rare and out-of-print books and shredding them"

    On 8/12/26 12:44, William Hyde wrote:
    Paul S Person wrote:
    On Tue, 11 Aug 2026 16:49:02 -0400, William Hyde


    IIRC, technology has marched on to the point that some of those older
    works can now be read.

    I may have mentioned it before, but I am hoping˙ that we will find a
    copy of Claudius' works on the Etruscans (a history and a grammar, I believe) before long.

    Vesuvius erupted only a generation after he was emperor, and I suspect
    that the status-seeking rich of Herculaneum would have works by the
    later emperor (and now God) on their shelves, even if they had no
    intention of ever reading them.

    I've been waiting about thirty years for this technique to work. Results
    are coming out, but painfully slowly.


    William Hyde

    I can only agree that Claudius on the Etruscans would be of
    extreme interest.

    bliss

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Cryptoengineer@3:633/10 to All on Thu Aug 13 13:57:06 2026
    Subject: Re: "AI companies are buying up rare and out-of-print books and shredding them"

    On 8/12/2026 12:34 PM, Steve Coltrin wrote:
    begin fnord
    William Hyde <wthyde1953@gmail.com> writes:

    (I first mistyped "Statistical physics" and the spell checker gave me
    "Fantastical physics". I regret correcting that).

    "Ludwig Boltzmann, who spent much of his life studying statistical
    mechanics, died in 1906, by his own hand. Paul Ehrenfest, carrying on
    his work, died similarly in 1933. Now it is our turn to study
    statistical mechanics."

    - _States of Matter_, David L. Goodstein


    To end the suspense, David lived to be 85, dying in 2024.

    pt

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Tony Nance@3:633/10 to All on Mon Aug 17 12:12:39 2026
    Subject: Re: "AI companies are buying up rare and out-of-print books and shredding them"

    On 8/11/26 4:49 PM, William Hyde wrote:
    Scott Dorsey wrote:
    The True Melissa˙ <thetruemelissa@gmail.comNOSPAM> wrote:
    Scott Dorsey wrote in article <115dp5h$nu0$1@panix2.panix.com>:
    Depends what the books are.˙ If they are Harlequin paperbacks, then
    there
    are plenty of other copies out there and destroying one or two isn't
    going
    to hurt anything.

    If they are out of print textbooks that are primary sources, and there >>>> aren't very many copies left in circulation, it's a bad thing.

    The latter books aren't sitting in warehouses. They're generally
    in archives.

    I hope so, but we have a generation of scientists and engineers who are
    dying off and their books are going up for sale (and often into trash
    bins,
    sadly) rather than being archived.

    Some books that used to be common standard references like Tremaine's
    Audio
    Cyclopedia have become rare and valuable.˙ Others like the RCA Radiotron
    Handbook have been made available online in such convenient forms that
    the
    originals are no longer worth much.˙ There's a lot of change going on
    in the
    technical books world right now.

    I bought Divinsky's "Rings and Radicals" for 98 cents.˙ Twenty years ago
    I was offered $75 for it. When I mentioned this I was offered $100 by someone else.


    You and I talked about the Divinsky book here a few times many years ago (though I wasn't the one who offered anything for it). I actually found (ordered) a reasonably priced copy just a few years ago.


    Well, that was U of Toronto press, probably a small run.

    I think you also mentioned that the U of T math department published a
    set of advanced mathematics books, including "Tensor Calculus" by Synge
    and Schild, which I inherited from a friend of mine when he retired.

    Tony, who has not actually opened the Synge and Schild, but who has
    definitely opened the Divinsky

    <snippage>



    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From William Hyde@3:633/10 to All on Mon Aug 17 15:26:12 2026
    Subject: Re: "AI companies are buying up rare and out-of-print books and shredding them"

    Tony Nance wrote:
    On 8/11/26 4:49 PM, William Hyde wrote:
    Scott Dorsey wrote:
    The True Melissa˙ <thetruemelissa@gmail.comNOSPAM> wrote:
    Scott Dorsey wrote in article <115dp5h$nu0$1@panix2.panix.com>:
    Depends what the books are.˙ If they are Harlequin paperbacks, then >>>>> there
    are plenty of other copies out there and destroying one or two
    isn't going
    to hurt anything.

    If they are out of print textbooks that are primary sources, and there >>>>> aren't very many copies left in circulation, it's a bad thing.

    The latter books aren't sitting in warehouses. They're generally
    in archives.

    I hope so, but we have a generation of scientists and engineers who are
    dying off and their books are going up for sale (and often into trash
    bins,
    sadly) rather than being archived.

    Some books that used to be common standard references like Tremaine's
    Audio
    Cyclopedia have become rare and valuable.˙ Others like the RCA Radiotron >>> Handbook have been made available online in such convenient forms
    that the
    originals are no longer worth much.˙ There's a lot of change going on
    in the
    technical books world right now.

    I bought Divinsky's "Rings and Radicals" for 98 cents.˙ Twenty years
    ago I was offered $75 for it. When I mentioned this I was offered $100
    by someone else.


    You and I talked about the Divinsky book here a few times many years ago (though I wasn't the one who offered anything for it). I actually found (ordered) a reasonably priced copy just a few years ago.


    Well, that was U of Toronto press, probably a small run.

    I think you also mentioned that the U of T math department published a
    set of advanced mathematics books, including "Tensor Calculus" by Synge
    and Schild, which I inherited from a friend of mine when he retired.

    Tony, who has not actually opened the Synge and Schild, but who has definitely opened the Divinsky

    There was quite a run of U of T math books, mostly being sold off
    cheaply when I was there in the 1970s.

    I have Synge and Schild, and also Cornelius Lanczos's "The variational principles of Mechanics", which was a required text.

    Both Synge and Lanczos came to Toronto from Dublin for a few years.
    Bondi said in 1992 that everybody who worked in relativity was
    influenced by Synge.

    Apparently Lanczos rewrote the Maxwell equations using quaternions.
    Nowadays that might be very useful in imaging.

    I also have "Partial Differential Equations", by G. F. D. Duff. But I
    have so many books on PDEs that I've never opened this one.

    William Hyde


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Scott Dorsey@3:633/10 to All on Wed Aug 19 08:30:39 2026
    Subject: Re: "AI companies are buying up rare and out-of-print books and shredding them"

    William Hyde <wthyde1953@gmail.com> wrote:

    Apparently Lanczos rewrote the Maxwell equations using quaternions.
    Nowadays that might be very useful in imaging.

    I am trying to think why I would ever want this. I certainly understand Heaviside's rewriting the Maxwell equations in terms of vectors and greatly simplifying things, but I can't understand what an additional dimension would buy me.
    --scott
    --
    "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Steve Coltrin@3:633/10 to All on Wed Aug 19 08:35:25 2026
    Subject: Re: "AI companies are buying up rare and out-of-print books and shredding them"

    begin fnord
    kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) writes:

    William Hyde <wthyde1953@gmail.com> wrote:

    Apparently Lanczos rewrote the Maxwell equations using quaternions. >>Nowadays that might be very useful in imaging.

    I am trying to think why I would ever want this. I certainly understand Heaviside's rewriting the Maxwell equations in terms of vectors and greatly simplifying things, but I can't understand what an additional dimension would buy me.

    Me neither, but Crowe's _A History of Vector Analysis_ (which I own but
    have not read) states that there was much disagreement in the 1800s over whether vectors or quaternions were the way forward.

    --
    Steve Coltrin spcoltri@omcl.org
    "A group known as the League of Human Dignity helped arrange for Deuel
    to be driven to a local livestock scale, where he could be weighed."
    - Associated Press

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Tony Nance@3:633/10 to All on Wed Aug 19 15:29:14 2026
    Subject: Re: "AI companies are buying up rare and out-of-print books and shredding them"

    On 8/19/26 10:35 AM, Steve Coltrin wrote:
    begin fnord
    kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) writes:

    William Hyde <wthyde1953@gmail.com> wrote:

    Apparently Lanczos rewrote the Maxwell equations using quaternions.
    Nowadays that might be very useful in imaging.

    I am trying to think why I would ever want this. I certainly understand
    Heaviside's rewriting the Maxwell equations in terms of vectors and greatly >> simplifying things, but I can't understand what an additional dimension would
    buy me.

    Me neither, but Crowe's _A History of Vector Analysis_ (which I own but
    have not read) states that there was much disagreement in the 1800s over whether vectors or quaternions were the way forward.


    Note: I am not a physicist, BUT from my failing memory, and after poking around a bit online: Some of it is just picking your poison, as each has advantages over the other.[1]

    Vectors seem to have "won" historically (19th century) because the
    quaternions aren't multiplicatively commutative, and because the
    quaternions are 4-dimensional. (i.e. Because everyday classical physics
    only requires 3 spatial dimensions, 19th century scientists preferred Heaviside?s trimmed-down 3D vector calculus.)

    Modern computing can favor quaternions, as they require less memory and
    fewer computational steps to calculate 3D rotations compared to standard rotation matrices.

    If you "upgrade" space and time into a single four-dimensional
    quaternion space, the four equations collapse into one single formula.

    And, two quotes from an AI summary:
    "Quaternions naturally combine scalar (time) and vector (3D space)
    components into a single 4D object. This mirrors the structure of
    Minkowski spacetime, making the equations automatically compatible with Special Relativity without needing tensor calculus."

    "Unlike vector calculus, which can suffer from gimbal lock or coordinate singularities in curvilinear systems, quaternions manipulate orientation
    and rotation globally and smoothly."

    Lastly, to my surprise:
    While poking around, I saw a mention that the octonions are also being
    in modern theoretical physics (in general). I did not look into
    why/when/where that is happening.

    Again, I am not a physicist; and there are a few things up there that
    are taken straight from an AI summary too.

    Tony
    [1] No surprise, or they wouldn't both be in use.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Tony Nance@3:633/10 to All on Wed Aug 19 15:32:58 2026
    Subject: Re: "AI companies are buying up rare and out-of-print books and shredding them"

    On 8/17/26 3:26 PM, William Hyde wrote:
    Tony Nance wrote:
    On 8/11/26 4:49 PM, William Hyde wrote:
    Scott Dorsey wrote:
    The True Melissa˙ <thetruemelissa@gmail.comNOSPAM> wrote:
    Scott Dorsey wrote in article <115dp5h$nu0$1@panix2.panix.com>:
    Depends what the books are.˙ If they are Harlequin paperbacks,
    then there
    are plenty of other copies out there and destroying one or two
    isn't going
    to hurt anything.

    If they are out of print textbooks that are primary sources, and
    there
    aren't very many copies left in circulation, it's a bad thing.

    The latter books aren't sitting in warehouses. They're generally
    in archives.

    I hope so, but we have a generation of scientists and engineers who are >>>> dying off and their books are going up for sale (and often into
    trash bins,
    sadly) rather than being archived.

    Some books that used to be common standard references like
    Tremaine's Audio
    Cyclopedia have become rare and valuable.˙ Others like the RCA
    Radiotron
    Handbook have been made available online in such convenient forms
    that the
    originals are no longer worth much.˙ There's a lot of change going
    on in the
    technical books world right now.

    I bought Divinsky's "Rings and Radicals" for 98 cents.˙ Twenty years
    ago I was offered $75 for it. When I mentioned this I was offered
    $100 by someone else.


    You and I talked about the Divinsky book here a few times many years
    ago (though I wasn't the one who offered anything for it). I actually
    found (ordered) a reasonably priced copy just a few years ago.


    Well, that was U of Toronto press, probably a small run.

    I think you also mentioned that the U of T math department published a
    set of advanced mathematics books, including "Tensor Calculus" by
    Synge and Schild, which I inherited from a friend of mine when he
    retired.

    Tony, who has not actually opened the Synge and Schild, but who has
    definitely opened the Divinsky

    There was quite a run of U of T math books, mostly being sold off
    cheaply when I was there in the 1970s.


    Hm. Now I want to check to see what other U of T books I have ended up
    with without associating them to U of T.

    Tony, who won't be back in his office until Monday



    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From William Hyde@3:633/10 to All on Wed Aug 19 16:06:55 2026
    Subject: Re: "AI companies are buying up rare and out-of-print books and shredding them"

    Tony Nance wrote:
    On 8/19/26 10:35 AM, Steve Coltrin wrote:
    begin˙ fnord
    kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) writes:

    William Hyde˙ <wthyde1953@gmail.com> wrote:

    Apparently Lanczos rewrote the Maxwell equations using quaternions.
    Nowadays that might be very useful in imaging.

    I am trying to think why I would ever want this.˙ I certainly understand >>> Heaviside's rewriting the Maxwell equations in terms of vectors and
    greatly
    simplifying things, but I can't understand what an additional
    dimension would
    buy me.

    Me neither, but Crowe's _A History of Vector Analysis_ (which I own but
    have not read) states that there was much disagreement in the 1800s over
    whether vectors or quaternions were the way forward.


    Note: I am not a physicist, BUT from my failing memory, and after poking around a bit online: Some of it is just picking your poison, as each has advantages over the other.[1]

    Vectors seem to have "won" historically (19th century) because the quaternions aren't multiplicatively commutative, and because the
    quaternions are 4-dimensional. (i.e. Because everyday classical physics
    only requires 3 spatial dimensions, 19th century scientists preferred Heaviside?s trimmed-down 3D vector calculus.)

    Modern computing can favor quaternions, as they require less memory and fewer computational steps to calculate 3D rotations compared to standard rotation matrices.

    If you "upgrade" space and time into a single four-dimensional
    quaternion space, the four equations collapse into one single formula.

    And, two quotes from an AI summary:
    "Quaternions naturally combine scalar (time) and vector (3D space) components into a single 4D object. This mirrors the structure of
    Minkowski spacetime, making the equations automatically compatible with Special Relativity without needing tensor calculus."

    "Unlike vector calculus, which can suffer from gimbal lock or coordinate singularities in curvilinear systems, quaternions manipulate orientation
    and rotation globally and smoothly."

    Lastly, to my surprise:
    While poking around, I saw a mention that the octonions are also being
    in modern theoretical physics (in general). I did not look into why/when/where that is happening.

    Again, I am not a physicist; and there are a few things up there that
    are taken straight from an AI summary too.

    That is more or less what I recall from the days when I was paying some attention.

    Not too surprisingly, applications in theoretical physics are being
    found for the sedenions (16), while there is even speculation about uses
    for the 32-ions (whatever they are called).

    Create a mathematical object, and some physicist will find a use for it.
    But it may take a while, as the sedenions have been known since the late 1800s.

    William Hyde



    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Scott Dorsey@3:633/10 to All on Wed Aug 19 19:18:32 2026
    Subject: Re: "AI companies are buying up rare and out-of-print books and shredding them"

    kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) writes:
    William Hyde <wthyde1953@gmail.com> wrote:

    Apparently Lanczos rewrote the Maxwell equations using quaternions.
    Nowadays that might be very useful in imaging.

    I am trying to think why I would ever want this. I certainly understand >>> Heaviside's rewriting the Maxwell equations in terms of vectors and greatly >>> simplifying things, but I can't understand what an additional dimension would
    buy me.

    Vectors seem to have "won" historically (19th century) because the >quaternions aren't multiplicatively commutative, and because the
    quaternions are 4-dimensional. (i.e. Because everyday classical physics
    only requires 3 spatial dimensions, 19th century scientists preferred >Heaviside?s trimmed-down 3D vector calculus.)

    Yes. We live in a three-dimensional world, and I guess I don't know what Maxwell would be used for outside of classical physics in our three
    dimensional world.

    Maxwell's original book used only scalars and was pretty much
    incomprehensible. I tried to read it in grad school and it seemed
    like everything was going around the bunch to get anywhere. So I
    the 3D vector calculus was a huge advance in comprehensibility and
    utility.

    Modern computing can favor quaternions, as they require less memory and >fewer computational steps to calculate 3D rotations compared to standard >rotation matrices.

    Now, THIS makes good sense. This is the kind of answer I was hoping for
    and this explains a lot.

    If you "upgrade" space and time into a single four-dimensional
    quaternion space, the four equations collapse into one single formula.

    I'll buy that too.

    And, two quotes from an AI summary:
    "Quaternions naturally combine scalar (time) and vector (3D space) >components into a single 4D object. This mirrors the structure of
    Minkowski spacetime, making the equations automatically compatible with >Special Relativity without needing tensor calculus."

    I'm not sure I understand that. I am not a physicist; I just fix radios.

    "Unlike vector calculus, which can suffer from gimbal lock or coordinate >singularities in curvilinear systems, quaternions manipulate orientation
    and rotation globally and smoothly."

    That's the same thing said above, which is good.
    --scott

    --
    "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From William Hyde@3:633/10 to All on Wed Aug 19 19:40:18 2026
    Subject: Re: "AI companies are buying up rare and out-of-print books and shredding them"

    Scott Dorsey wrote:
    kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) writes:
    William Hyde <wthyde1953@gmail.com> wrote:

    Apparently Lanczos rewrote the Maxwell equations using quaternions.
    Nowadays that might be very useful in imaging.

    I am trying to think why I would ever want this. I certainly understand >>>> Heaviside's rewriting the Maxwell equations in terms of vectors and greatly
    simplifying things, but I can't understand what an additional dimension would
    buy me.

    Vectors seem to have "won" historically (19th century) because the
    quaternions aren't multiplicatively commutative, and because the
    quaternions are 4-dimensional. (i.e. Because everyday classical physics
    only requires 3 spatial dimensions, 19th century scientists preferred
    Heavisideƒ??s trimmed-down 3D vector calculus.)

    Yes. We live in a three-dimensional world, and I guess I don't know what Maxwell would be used for outside of classical physics in our three dimensional world.

    Maxwell's original book used only scalars and was pretty much incomprehensible. I tried to read it in grad school and it seemed
    like everything was going around the bunch to get anywhere. So I
    the 3D vector calculus was a huge advance in comprehensibility and
    utility.

    It was said before Heaviside's work that only three people understood Maxwell's work. If it hadn't made a correct prediction of the speed of
    light, possibly nobody would have finished reading it.

    William Hyde

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Scott Dorsey@3:633/10 to All on Thu Aug 20 20:19:15 2026
    Subject: Re: "AI companies are buying up rare and out-of-print books and shredding them"

    William Hyde <wthyde1953@gmail.com> wrote:

    It was said before Heaviside's work that only three people understood >Maxwell's work. If it hadn't made a correct prediction of the speed of >light, possibly nobody would have finished reading it.

    That's a lot of what made it cool.... and that wasn't the only fundamental constant that popped out of it, but it was the one that first boggled everyone's mind.
    --scott
    --
    "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Don@3:633/10 to All on Fri Aug 21 15:31:22 2026
    Subject: Re: "AI companies are buying up rare and out-of-print books and shredding them"

    Tony Nance <tnusenet17@gmail.com> wrote:
    On 8/19/26 10:35 AM, Steve Coltrin wrote:
    begin fnord
    kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) writes:

    William Hyde <wthyde1953@gmail.com> wrote:

    Apparently Lanczos rewrote the Maxwell equations using quaternions.
    Nowadays that might be very useful in imaging.

    I am trying to think why I would ever want this. I certainly understand >>> Heaviside's rewriting the Maxwell equations in terms of vectors and greatly >>> simplifying things, but I can't understand what an additional dimension would
    buy me.

    Me neither, but Crowe's _A History of Vector Analysis_ (which I own but
    have not read) states that there was much disagreement in the 1800s over
    whether vectors or quaternions were the way forward.


    Note: I am not a physicist, BUT from my failing memory, and after poking around a bit online: Some of it is just picking your poison, as each has advantages over the other.[1]

    Vectors seem to have "won" historically (19th century) because the quaternions aren't multiplicatively commutative, and because the
    quaternions are 4-dimensional. (i.e. Because everyday classical physics
    only requires 3 spatial dimensions, 19th century scientists preferred Heaviside?s trimmed-down 3D vector calculus.)

    Modern computing can favor quaternions, as they require less memory and
    fewer computational steps to calculate 3D rotations compared to standard rotation matrices.

    If you "upgrade" space and time into a single four-dimensional
    quaternion space, the four equations collapse into one single formula.

    And, two quotes from an AI summary:
    "Quaternions naturally combine scalar (time) and vector (3D space)
    components into a single 4D object. This mirrors the structure of
    Minkowski spacetime, making the equations automatically compatible with

    Hans G Schantz, KC5VLD, designs antennas for a living and writes science fiction on the side. He promotes Bohmian Mechanics as a casual
    interpretation of quantum mechanics. My reviews of his science fiction
    stories appeared here in rasw over the years.

    Schantz is scheduled to speak at this weekend's National Ham Convention,
    held in Huntsville this year:

    <https://aetherczar.substack.com/p/did-heaviside-delete-maxwell-scalar>

    Schantz created the Society for Post-Quantum Research. It will hold a
    symposium in Huntsville over the 2027 MLK day weekend:

    <https://aetherczar.substack.com/t/heaviside-symposium>

    For What It's Worth, next weekend, my hometown hosts the Rocky Mountain Division Ham Convention:

    <https://wyohamcon.org>

    Danke,

    --
    Don.......My cat's )\._.,--....,'``. veritas _|_ telltale tall tail /, _.. \ _\ (`._ ,. liberabit |
    tells tall tales.. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.' vos |


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From The Horny Goat@3:633/10 to All on Fri Aug 21 17:03:08 2026
    Subject: Re: "AI companies are buying up rare and out-of-print books and shredding them"

    On Tue, 28 Jul 2026 16:56:39 -0700, BobbieSellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextremeinvalid.com> wrote:

    The reason mentioned as to the cost of storage would be
    obviated by repairing the books and reselling them.

    Gee do you think Amazon might have thought of solving their problem by
    actually selling books?!?

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From The Horny Goat@3:633/10 to All on Fri Aug 21 17:09:21 2026
    Subject: Re: "AI companies are buying up rare and out-of-print books and shredding them"

    On Wed, 29 Jul 2026 16:52:13 -0000 (UTC), "Don" <g@crcomp.net> wrote:

    Finally, it cannot be emphasized enough that it is the
    nature of the universe for knowledge to be destroyed. If
    you just leave a book sitting on a shelf, the pages will
    slowly decay, it will gather dust and insects, and,
    eventually, the book will disintegrate. The only way to
    preserve a text is by copying it. In other words, it
    takes real effort to save a text from destruction.

    Just curious - how long do you believe that process takes?

    Reason I ask is because between my library and the shelves on the
    other side of the room containing my late wife's books we have
    600-1000 books. Most of mine are on chess, most of hers are history of
    some sort - such as her most treasured gift to me (at least besides
    our kids) a first edition of Churchill's WW2 history. (Missing the
    original dust jackets alas but definitely a first edition)

    In particular is there anything I should do to preserve these? (I've
    attached non-binding notes to my kids which I've put in the same
    envelope as my will asking them to carry out my wishes concerning the
    chess books)

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From The Horny Goat@3:633/10 to All on Fri Aug 21 17:19:38 2026
    Subject: Re: "AI companies are buying up rare and out-of-print books and shredding them"

    On Tue, 11 Aug 2026 16:49:02 -0400, William Hyde
    <wthyde1953@gmail.com> wrote:

    I bought Divinsky's "Rings and Radicals" for 98 cents. Twenty years ago
    I was offered $75 for it. When I mentioned this I was offered $100 by >someone else.

    Which Divinsky are you talking about? If you mean Nathan Divinsky, the University of BC Math professor who went on to become vice Science
    Dean at UBC and was heavily involved on the board of the Chess
    Federation (he was at one time national secretary - which I now am) of
    Canada then I'm definitely interested as I was a student of his in the
    70s and spoke at his funeral for the Chess Federation.

    (Given the topic of the book my Divinsky is probably your guy)

    I'm assuming this book is long out of print but as a university math
    student I would probably understand it.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Tony Nance@3:633/10 to All on Fri Aug 21 20:41:46 2026
    Subject: Re: "AI companies are buying up rare and out-of-print books and shredding them"

    On 8/21/26 8:19 PM, The Horny Goat wrote:
    On Tue, 11 Aug 2026 16:49:02 -0400, William Hyde
    <wthyde1953@gmail.com> wrote:

    I bought Divinsky's "Rings and Radicals" for 98 cents. Twenty years ago
    I was offered $75 for it. When I mentioned this I was offered $100 by
    someone else.

    Which Divinsky are you talking about? If you mean Nathan Divinsky, the University of BC Math professor who went on to become vice Science
    Dean at UBC and was heavily involved on the board of the Chess
    Federation (he was at one time national secretary - which I now am) of
    Canada then I'm definitely interested as I was a student of his in the
    70s and spoke at his funeral for the Chess Federation.

    (Given the topic of the book my Divinsky is probably your guy)


    Yep, that's the one!


    I'm assuming this book is long out of print

    Sadly, it is.


    but as a university math
    student I would probably understand it.

    If you remember some ring theory, then you most probably would.
    Tony




    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Don@3:633/10 to All on Sat Aug 22 02:44:04 2026
    Subject: Re: "AI companies are buying up rare and out-of-print books and shredding them"

    The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca> wrote:
    On Wed, 29 Jul 2026 16:52:13 -0000 (UTC), "Don" <g@crcomp.net> wrote:

    Finally, it cannot be emphasized enough that it is the
    nature of the universe for knowledge to be destroyed. If
    you just leave a book sitting on a shelf, the pages will
    slowly decay, it will gather dust and insects, and,
    eventually, the book will disintegrate. The only way to
    preserve a text is by copying it. In other words, it
    takes real effort to save a text from destruction.

    Just curious - how long do you believe that process takes?

    Reason I ask is because between my library and the shelves on the
    other side of the room containing my late wife's books we have
    600-1000 books. Most of mine are on chess, most of hers are history of
    some sort - such as her most treasured gift to me (at least besides
    our kids) a first edition of Churchill's WW2 history. (Missing the
    original dust jackets alas but definitely a first edition)

    In particular is there anything I should do to preserve these? (I've
    attached non-binding notes to my kids which I've put in the same
    envelope as my will asking them to carry out my wishes concerning the
    chess books)

    It depends. The USA's Second class citizens, Catholics, could only
    afford pulp paper for most of THE TRUE CHURCH OF CHIRST. My 1910 copy
    shows significant signs of deterioration.
    About a dozen of its illustrations are printed on what appears to
    be clay based paper. Those illustrations show no significant signs of deterioration.
    Wealthier USA first class citizens used expensive paper. The paper
    in the Feb 1912 NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC MAGAZINE that sits on an adjacent
    shelf also appears to be clay based and likewise shows no significant
    signs of deterioration.
    Here's what the storied Library of Congress says about
    deterioration:

    The Deterioration and Preservation of Paper: Some Essential Facts

    Paper deterioration is still a problem, but thanks to years of
    scientific research by the library community and beyond, it is
    no longer a mystery. The preservation strategy for paper
    materials at the Library of Congress continues to evolve as
    our scientific understanding of deterioration mechanisms has
    progressed.

    (excerpt)

    <https://www.loc.gov/preservation/care/deterioratebrochure.html>

    # # #

    This mathematical Telegram post made me think of John Savard and you.
    My search for a larger version was futile.

    <https://t.me/weirdiswise/14348#>

    Danke,

    --
    Don.......My cat's )\._.,--....,'``. veritas _|_ telltale tall tail /, _.. \ _\ (`._ ,. liberabit |
    tells tall tales.. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.' vos |


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From BobbieSellers@3:633/10 to All on Fri Aug 21 21:18:55 2026
    Subject: Re: "AI companies are buying up rare and out-of-print books and shredding them"

    On 8/21/26 17:09, The Horny Goat wrote:
    On Wed, 29 Jul 2026 16:52:13 -0000 (UTC), "Don" <g@crcomp.net> wrote:

    Finally, it cannot be emphasized enough that it is the
    nature of the universe for knowledge to be destroyed. If
    you just leave a book sitting on a shelf, the pages will
    slowly decay, it will gather dust and insects, and,
    eventually, the book will disintegrate. The only way to
    preserve a text is by copying it. In other words, it
    takes real effort to save a text from destruction.

    Just curious - how long do you believe that process takes?

    Reason I ask is because between my library and the shelves on the
    other side of the room containing my late wife's books we have
    600-1000 books. Most of mine are on chess, most of hers are history of
    some sort - such as her most treasured gift to me (at least besides
    our kids) a first edition of Churchill's WW2 history. (Missing the
    original dust jackets alas but definitely a first edition)

    In particular is there anything I should do to preserve these? (I've
    attached non-binding notes to my kids which I've put in the same
    envelope as my will asking them to carry out my wishes concerning the
    chess books)

    There are archival bags for books which are intended to protect
    them from the air. If the books were printed n cheap paper then the
    bleaching chemicals will ultimately destroy the best books.

    So excluded air from your books as best you can.

    bliss

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Scott Dorsey@3:633/10 to All on Sat Aug 22 14:16:27 2026
    Subject: Re: "AI companies are buying up rare and out-of-print books and shredding them"

    In article <20260821b@crcomp.net>, Don <g@crcomp.net> wrote:
    It depends. The USA's Second class citizens, Catholics, could only
    afford pulp paper for most of THE TRUE CHURCH OF CHIRST. My 1910 copy
    shows significant signs of deterioration.

    There are some deacidication processes for stabilizing pulp paper. I
    do not know the details but I know the LoC has aggressively worked on controlling deterioration of old MMPGs.

    About a dozen of its illustrations are printed on what appears to
    be clay based paper. Those illustrations show no significant signs of >deterioration.

    This was likely a higher quality wood-pulp paper with a clay coating.
    Likely with an alkali added for stability. It might have been a rag
    paper but likely not.
    --scott

    --
    "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From William Hyde@3:633/10 to All on Sat Aug 22 15:36:42 2026
    Subject: Re: "AI companies are buying up rare and out-of-print books and shredding them"

    The Horny Goat wrote:
    On Tue, 11 Aug 2026 16:49:02 -0400, William Hyde
    <wthyde1953@gmail.com> wrote:

    I bought Divinsky's "Rings and Radicals" for 98 cents. Twenty years ago
    I was offered $75 for it. When I mentioned this I was offered $100 by
    someone else.

    Which Divinsky are you talking about? If you mean Nathan Divinsky,


    When I was a professor at Dalhousie, one of my colleagues had a book
    from Divinsky's collection in his office.

    I warned him to send it back. The RCMP would not take kindly to
    stealing from the Prime Minister's ex-husband.


    I'm assuming this book is long out of print but as a university math
    student I would probably understand it.

    I've a high opinion of UBC math, so I concur. But I've met math grads
    who were not quite sure what the title means. A lot of people don't
    take advanced algebra (I didn't myself, being in Physics at a time when algebraic structures were used comparatively rarely ("Group theory and
    Quantum Mechanics" was then a thin volume, nowadays it would be a multi
    volume set)).


    William Hyde


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)