• Re: Well shoot: RIP Walter Koenig

    From Tony Nance@3:633/10 to All on Mon Oct 26 16:52:52 2026
    On 10/26/26 2:40 PM, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
    https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/tv/tv-news/walter-koenig-dead-chekov-star-trek-russian-1236740088/

    Hope he found his nuclear wessels!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdSJFrhb-HM

    Bummer. He also did a wonderful job playing Bester on Babylon 5. RIP Walter.
    - Tony

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
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  • From John Savard@3:633/10 to All on Tue Oct 27 14:34:06 2026
    On Mon, 26 Oct 2026 16:52:52 -0400, Tony Nance <tnusenet17@gmail.com>
    wrote:

    On 10/26/26 2:40 PM, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
    https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/tv/tv-news/walter-koenig-dead-chekov-star-trek-russian-1236740088/

    Hope he found his nuclear wessels!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdSJFrhb-HM

    Bummer. He also did a wonderful job playing Bester on Babylon 5. RIP Walter.

    I am saddened by the death of the actor Walter Koenig. I certainly
    bore the man no ill will.

    But I have to admit that I never liked his character, Pavel Chekov, in
    the original series. I had thought that putting this character in the
    show was the stupidest thing they ever did.

    Why?

    Well, there are little things.

    Chekhov's "Russian" accent. One thing he did often was replace "v" by
    "w" in English words. But W isn't even a letter in the Russian
    alphabet! In Belarus, they do have a letter for W, oo kratkoye, but
    the sound doesn't even exist in Russian.

    But there's the one big thing. The one thing that makes the character colossally stupid.

    The television show is set in the far future.

    What should that mean?

    The first-season episode "The Squire of Gothos" contains an incident
    that illustrates exactly what's wrong with Chekhov. Yes, it's a
    first-season episode, so Chekhov isn't in it. But that's fine; another character, a very minor character, illustrates what Chekhov should
    have been.

    Trelane encounters a crewman whose name is Jaeger. A German! So
    Trelane automatically assumes that he is an admirer of the sort of
    militarism that Trelane affects. But instead Jaeger does a
    double-take. Because, as we all know, in between the time on Earth
    with which Trelane, so fallible of him, thought was current, and the
    time of Star Trek... some unpleasantness took place, related to
    Germany, which meant that no one in their right mind in the era of
    Star Trek would look upon historical German militarism as anything but
    utterly wicked and depraved.

    So the notion that Chekhov, in the far-future of Star Trek, would
    admire Soviet Communism, and display the kind of ignorance about the
    Western world - or, rather, the Western portion of Earth - that people
    living under Soviet Communism at the time might have... is ludicrous.
    It would be like Crewman Jaeger being a Nazi in the age of Star Trek.

    So the issue here is with the politics of Star Trek.

    The message of peace and tolerance, of opposition to bigotry, is a
    good one. My problem isn't with the intent, it's with the execution.
    Which, in TOS, and, often, even in later series, went badly. Sometimes hilariously badly.

    We can all agree that, say, "The Omega Glory" was a terrible episode.
    But it being terrible doesn't say anything important about my concern
    here. They were pulled between network standards, which they wanted to
    placate by making an episode that seemed patriotic - by highlighting
    the value of the U.S. Constitution - while sending a message of
    universalism; the "Kohms" had to be included instead of being fought.
    The time to stop them from being victims of discrimination would be
    after they were defeated, it would seem, in practical terms.

    Instead, let's look at a flaw in a good episode. "Errand of Mercy".
    This episode is presumably intending to suck the viewer in by showing
    how cruel, ruthless, and evil the Klingons are towards the apparently
    helpless people of a humble planet. But at the end... Kirk is unable
    to make a moral defense against the Organians' charge of moral
    equivalence laid against him.

    Well, I guess we're supposed to become enlightened and start seeing
    things from a cosmic perspective instead of a narrow one that focuses
    on the sufferings of mere individuals.

    And let's take what is arguably the best episode of TOS ever made. The
    one that's a classical Greek tragedy. Yes: "City on the Edge of
    Forever".

    In this magnificent episode... Spock says perhaps one of the stupidest
    things anyone had ever said in the entire run of that series.

    "She was right... but at the wrong time."

    That sounds sensible. Peace is a noble and desirable ideal. Edith
    Keeler stood for peace and the hope of a bright future thanks to
    scientific and technical progress. But in the particular historical
    moment in which she lived, failing to respond militarily to the threat
    posed by Hitler's Germany would be disastrous.

    But what would demonstrate the problem with that remark?

    Let us say that, like the crewperson Mary Sue, I were able to project
    myself into the Star Trek universe as an omnipotent entity.

    And I took pity on Kirk.

    Like Norman in the episode "I, Mudd", I infiltrate the Enterprise, and
    then take control of it. I use the "slingshot effect" to send the
    Enterprise back to 1930 (or, perhaps more correctly, 1931, given when
    the song "Out of Nowhere" first appeared as well as Clark Gable's
    first notable movie appearance) and then change history only
    slightly... instead of being hit by a truck, like Judge Crater or
    Ambrose Bierce, Edith Keeler simply mysteriously disappeared.

    Because now she's in the transporter room of the Enterprise, which is
    heading towards the Sun in order to return to the present of Star
    Trek.

    So Kirk's heart can be healed.

    But it would serve Spock right, for making that silly remark, if Edith
    Keeler, now, supposedly, living in the "right" time instead of the
    wrong time, convinced the Federation that peace was the way... leading
    to the Klingons, prior to Worf, prior to the events of "The
    Undiscovered Country"... conquering the galaxy.

    1930 was the wrong time for Edith Keeler's message, but the era of the Federation is the right time, Mr. Spock? I fear your logic has failed
    you.

    Of course, though, the failings of Star Trek that I'm decrying are...
    very understandable.

    While on the one hand, one can pick up Solzhenitsyn's _Gulag
    Archipelago_, or look at the news today of Putin's forces raging
    through Ukraine, and conclude that Soviet Communism or whatever
    ideology is afflicting Russia today is evil, in the same sense as
    Nazism in Germany was evil, and saying that we should try to
    understand the one, even when opposing the other was entirely right
    makes absolutely no sense... this "senseless" view becomes all too understandable given another piece of historical context.

    The fact that Nazism _was_ evil was not used in the United States as a
    pretext to persecute anyone and everyone of slightly conservative
    views.

    The United States waited until Pearl Harbor to take up arms against
    Nazism. But they fought in Korea and Vietnam. That's like intervening
    in the Spanish Civil War - or defending Ethiopia against Mussolini.
    (Which, incidentally, are things I think the United States _should_
    have done, so I don't begrudge the people of South Korea their lives
    as free people today, far from it.)

    McCarthyism. The "Red Scare" of the 1920s.

    The obvious cause of this... disparity... in responses to
    non-democratic political ideologies which threatened liberty was, of
    course, this:

    Businessmen, who had wealth, and therefore power, viewed Communism as
    a direct existential threat, while Fascism was just a natural phase
    that countries went through until they reached that peak of
    civilization which was American-style democracy.

    So action is taken against a right-wing dictatorship only if events
    force the country to do so, while Communism is a plague that needs to
    be stamped out in a very proactive fashion. Hence, such tragedies -
    no, such crimes - as the overthrow of Arbenz in Guatemala.

    It is... difficult... for the human mind, which has evolved to survive
    by taking sides, to hunt wooly mammoths in packs, to survive through
    loyalty to the other members of its tribe, to hold in its
    consciousness at the same time two seemingly contradictory ideas...

    That Stalin was genuinely evil, and so were Lenin, Andropov, Brezhnev
    and others as well, *and*
    that, none the less, the American response to Communism was flawed.

    But if you don't hold those two ideas in your mind at the same time in
    their full power and clarity, you will end up making... mistakes that
    other people who had nothing to do with Star Trek, like people like
    Jane Fonda or even Barbra Streisand often made... the mistake of
    thinking that to fight the evil of McCarthyism, you have to claim that
    Soviet Communism isn't "all that bad".

    The enemy is sometimes on the left, just as the enemy is sometimes on
    the right. Look both ways when fighting for freedom, just as you would
    look both ways when crossing the street.

    John Savard

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Scott Dorsey@3:633/10 to All on Tue Oct 27 11:29:01 2026
    John Savard <quadibloc@invalid.com> wrote:
    So the notion that Chekhov, in the far-future of Star Trek, would
    admire Soviet Communism, and display the kind of ignorance about the
    Western world - or, rather, the Western portion of Earth - that people
    living under Soviet Communism at the time might have... is ludicrous.
    It would be like Crewman Jaeger being a Nazi in the age of Star Trek.

    The story is told that when Star Trek went on the air, the Soviet ambassador wrote a letter to NBC complaining that there were no Russians in the show,
    when it was clear that Russians were in space for good. So NBC, in a very reasonable way, added a Russian character.

    Now, if he had not been a Soviet character as well as a Russian character
    that would have been a deliberate offense to the ambassador. So he was Russian, and Soviet, even if he had a sort-of-Polish accent.

    If you think his Russian accent was bad, you should have heard Werner Klemperer's when he played a cosmonaut on Men Into Space.

    So the issue here is with the politics of Star Trek.

    The message of peace and tolerance, of opposition to bigotry, is a
    good one. My problem isn't with the intent, it's with the execution.
    Which, in TOS, and, often, even in later series, went badly. Sometimes >hilariously badly.

    The politics of ST:TOS were rooted in the politics of the 1960s. For
    better or for worse. Things have changed in ways I never would have
    expected, and then again other things that I expected had already changed turned out not to have. It's a weird world we live in today and it's
    always been weird.
    --scott
    --
    "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From John Savard@3:633/10 to All on Tue Oct 27 16:48:35 2026
    On Tue, 27 Oct 2026 11:29:01 -0400 (EDT), kludge@panix.com (Scott
    Dorsey) wrote:

    If you think his Russian accent was bad, you should have heard Werner >Klemperer's when he played a cosmonaut on Men Into Space.

    Episode 34, "Flare Up", doesn't seem to have made it to YouTube yet.
    However, I haven't checked the Internet Archive, and I suspect it
    could very well be there.

    Incidentally, according to one book on the history of comics, William
    Lundigan, the star of that show, is claimed to be Russ Manning's
    inspiration for the look of his heroic characters like Magnus: Robot
    Fighter and Tarzan.

    John Savard

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From John Savard@3:633/10 to All on Tue Oct 27 16:51:44 2026
    On Tue, 27 Oct 2026 16:48:35 GMT, quadibloc@invalid.com (John Savard)
    wrote:

    Episode 34, "Flare Up", doesn't seem to have made it to YouTube yet.
    However, I haven't checked the Internet Archive, and I suspect it
    could very well be there.

    And indeed it is: https://archive.org/details/men.into.-space.-/Men.into.Space.1x34.Flare.Up.mp4

    John Savard

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From bliss@3:633/10 to All on Tue Oct 27 10:13:22 2026
    On 10/27/26 09:48, John Savard wrote:
    On Tue, 27 Oct 2026 11:29:01 -0400 (EDT), kludge@panix.com (Scott
    Dorsey) wrote:

    If you think his Russian accent was bad, you should have heard Werner
    Klemperer's when he played a cosmonaut on Men Into Space.

    Episode 34, "Flare Up", doesn't seem to have made it to YouTube yet.
    However, I haven't checked the Internet Archive, and I suspect it
    could very well be there.

    Incidentally, according to one book on the history of comics, William Lundigan, the star of that show, is claimed to be Russ Manning's
    inspiration for the look of his heroic characters like Magnus: Robot
    Fighter and Tarzan.

    John Savard

    From Wikipedica searching on Tarzan comic strip 1940s
    found this.
    arzan of the Apes was adapted into newspaper strip form, first published January 7, 1929, with illustrations by Hal Foster.[2] A full page Sunday strip began on March 15, 1931, with artwork by Rex Maxon.[2] United Feature Syndicate distributed the strip.

    Over the years, many artists have drawn the Tarzan comic strip, notably Rex Maxon (1929?1947), Burne Hogarth (1937?1945, 1947?1950), Ruben Moreira (1945?1947), Dan Barry (1948), Paul Reinman (1949?1950), Bob Lubbers (1950?1954), John Celardo (1954?1967), Russ Manning (1967?1979), Gil Kane (1979?1981), Mike Grell (1981?1983), Gray Morrow (1983?2001) and Eric Battle (2001?2002).[3]

    I followed that strip in my distant youth and
    I think Tarzan of 1937-1945 influenced the rendition
    of a lot of heroic characters including "Superman
    strange vistor from another planet." Maybe Batman
    as well.
    I doubt I ever saw Russ Manning's work as
    in his term I was following the Underground Comix
    from the Vegetable Stagecoach to the wide variety
    of titles that Crumb worked on. I was barely
    acquainted with RL Mr. Natural who was working as
    an Amiga Computer repairman when i met him. Crumb's
    work was a caricature of a real life person. I
    have seen other folks in San Francisco whose
    presentations seem to have been adopted by
    Crumb.
    Some of the great work in the Underground
    comix were by people like S.Clay Wilson and had
    biographical and radical political ideas.

    bliss


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Scott Dorsey@3:633/10 to All on Tue Oct 27 15:06:00 2026
    John Savard <quadibloc@invalid.com> wrote:
    On Tue, 27 Oct 2026 16:48:35 GMT, quadibloc@invalid.com (John Savard)
    wrote:

    Episode 34, "Flare Up", doesn't seem to have made it to YouTube yet. >>However, I haven't checked the Internet Archive, and I suspect it
    could very well be there.

    And indeed it is: >https://archive.org/details/men.into.-space.-/Men.into.Space.1x34.Flare.Up.mp4

    Is it not as I said?

    Notice the sets and background from Chesley Bonestell. This is one of the better space shows on TV ever.
    --scott
    --
    "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)