One of this week's Netflix releases was Devil In Disguise: John Wayne
Gacy so I decided to have a look. It's quite lengthy, consisting of 8
sixty minute episodes. . . .
Rhino <no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:
One of this week's Netflix releases was Devil In Disguise: John Wayne
Gacy so I decided to have a look. It's quite lengthy, consisting of 8
sixty minute episodes. . . .
I am going to comment on something that no one who isn't familiar with Chicago geography will understand. Illinois became a state in 1818,
mostly settled from Kentucky. This was always free territory (but
exceptions were made for slavery in salt mines) but Illinois was
initally a mid-South state like Kentucky and Tennessee.
The Erie Canal
opened in 1825 which greatly eased transportation into the interior.
Illinois became settled by people from New England who brought with them
the concept of township government; before, Illinois just had enormous counties. In New England, a township is a municipality, but in Illinoi,
a township is a county subdivision, except where the legislature
chartered a town. There was an Indian treaty in which they ceded
territory on either side of the proposed Illinois and Michigan Canal.
Town of Chicago was 1833; city of Chicago (second state charter) was
1837.
Because of disease and lack of sanitation, people demanded sewers.
Chicago was a swamp. Portions of Chicago were raised 8 feet above grade
to create space above natural grade for sewers. Many buildings got raise
to the new grade but we still have lots that are at natural grade and
you walk down to the front door.
Sewerage was hideously expensive and this was funded with municipal
bonds. You needed enough land value to float bonds, so Chicago and surrounding suburbs (effectively rural) that wanted sewers were annexed
into Chicago, especially in one enormous suburban annexation of
surrounding townships in 1889. Sewers were built first in already
settled areas (paid for in part by the still rural areas). At some
point, the suburbs were adeqautely settled enough that they had the population to float their own bonds for sewers.
The massive annexations ended but there were minor annexations over the decades, plus the campus of one of the Douglas Aircraft assembly plants
and airport (there had been two general aviation airports before WWII,
one of which was called Orchard Place which is why the call letters are
ORD) which is now the campus of O'Hare Airport. This is connected to
Chicago with a strip that's just a string of lots along the north side
of a street.
Where John Wayne Gacy lived and buried the bodies was an unincorporated
area surrounded by Chicago, parts of which are in two different
townships. There are also two suburbs in this area, both entirely
surrounded by Chicago.
Unincorporated areas are patrolled by sheriff's police whose police
station is in a western suburb and can take up to 30 minutes to respond
to an emergency.
This coincidence likely contributed to Gacy's ability to commit crime
over so long a period, plus various crimes were committed in different jurisdictons and there is no real-life instant recognition of a pattern
like tv.
If there were ever a push to "neaten up" unincorporated suburbia by
having Chicago annex this pocket, that's never gonna happen due to Gacy.
On 2025-10-19 1:15 p.m., Adam H. Kerman wrote:
Rhino <no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:
One of this week's Netflix releases was Devil In Disguise: John Wayne
Gacy so I decided to have a look. It's quite lengthy, consisting of 8
sixty minute episodes. . . .
I am going to comment on something that no one who isn't familiar with
Chicago geography will understand. Illinois became a state in 1818,
mostly settled from Kentucky. This was always free territory (but
exceptions were made for slavery in salt mines) but Illinois was
initally a mid-South state like Kentucky and Tennessee.
Interesting. I didn't know any of that.
The Erie CanalThe same happened with regards to the notorious Paul Bernardo. Before
opened in 1825 which greatly eased transportation into the interior.
Illinois became settled by people from New England who brought with them
the concept of township government; before, Illinois just had enormous
counties. In New England, a township is a municipality, but in Illinoi,
a township is a county subdivision, except where the legislature
chartered a town. There was an Indian treaty in which they ceded
territory on either side of the proposed Illinois and Michigan Canal.
Town of Chicago was 1833; city of Chicago (second state charter) was
1837.
Because of disease and lack of sanitation, people demanded sewers.
Chicago was a swamp. Portions of Chicago were raised 8 feet above grade
to create space above natural grade for sewers. Many buildings got raise
to the new grade but we still have lots that are at natural grade and
you walk down to the front door.
Sewerage was hideously expensive and this was funded with municipal
bonds. You needed enough land value to float bonds, so Chicago and
surrounding suburbs (effectively rural) that wanted sewers were annexed
into Chicago, especially in one enormous suburban annexation of
surrounding townships in 1889. Sewers were built first in already
settled areas (paid for in part by the still rural areas). At some
point, the suburbs were adeqautely settled enough that they had the
population to float their own bonds for sewers.
The massive annexations ended but there were minor annexations over the
decades, plus the campus of one of the Douglas Aircraft assembly plants
and airport (there had been two general aviation airports before WWII,
one of which was called Orchard Place which is why the call letters are
ORD) which is now the campus of O'Hare Airport. This is connected to
Chicago with a strip that's just a string of lots along the north side
of a street.
Where John Wayne Gacy lived and buried the bodies was an unincorporated
area surrounded by Chicago, parts of which are in two different
townships. There are also two suburbs in this area, both entirely
surrounded by Chicago.
Unincorporated areas are patrolled by sheriff's police whose police
station is in a western suburb and can take up to 30 minutes to respond
to an emergency.
This coincidence likely contributed to Gacy's ability to commit crime
over so long a period, plus various crimes were committed in different
jurisdictons and there is no real-life instant recognition of a pattern
like tv.
his identity was established, he was known to the public as the
Scarborough Rapist. Scarborough was a borough to the east of the City of Toronto. (It merged with the City and the other boroughs to form Metro Toronto toward the tail end of Bernardo's Reign of Terror.) But he lived
- and committed his murders - west of the city in Peel Region. (I think
he also committed some crimes north of the city in York Region.) The
various police forces did not share information readily, perhaps because they didn't make the connections or maybe because they just didn't like
to work with other departments.
If there were ever a push to "neaten up" unincorporated suburbia by
having Chicago annex this pocket, that's never gonna happen due to Gacy.
I had no idea there were unincorporated areas surrounded by Chicago. But
why would Gacy's existence preclude the idea of ever incorporating those areas?
The swamp underlying much of Chicago explains why Gacy had issues with burying bodies in his crawl space and had to dispose of many of them elsewhere. You have to wonder why Chicago was chosen as the site of a
city under the circumstances, not that there aren't precedents, like
Venice and New Orleans.
I had no idea there were unincorporated areas surrounded by Chicago. But
why would Gacy's existence preclude the idea of ever incorporating those >areas?
The swamp underlying much of Chicago explains why Gacy had issues with >burying bodies in his crawl space and had to dispose of many of them >elsewhere. You have to wonder why Chicago was chosen as the site of a
city under the circumstances, not that there aren't precedents, like
Venice and New Orleans. There must have been drier places along the
coast of Lake Michigan or with easy access to the Lake.
Rhino <no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:
I had no idea there were unincorporated areas surrounded by Chicago. But
why would Gacy's existence preclude the idea of ever incorporating those
areas?
Notoriety
The swamp underlying much of Chicago explains why Gacy had issues with
burying bodies in his crawl space and had to dispose of many of them
elsewhere. You have to wonder why Chicago was chosen as the site of a
city under the circumstances, not that there aren't precedents, like
Venice and New Orleans. There must have been drier places along the
coast of Lake Michigan or with easy access to the Lake.
The Illinois and Michigan Canal project began with the main branch of
the Chicago River and its south branch and portions of the Des Plaines
River through a very swampy area were rechanelized. There was a much deeper portion of the Des Plaines River, which is what they were aiming at.
This flows into the Illinois River and eventually, the Mississippi
River.
There is a continental divide which gets crossed. The Potawatamie
Indians showed Lewis and Clark the portage, hence their exploration of
the interior.
The I&M Canal was quite successful, to be followed by the parallel
Sanitary and Ship Canal for much larger barge traffic that opened in
1901 and famously reversed the flow of the Chicago River.
There was a failed canal project, the Hennepin Canal, which was supposed
to shorten the distance to the Mississippi River from the Illinois River where the latter turns fron east-west to north-south, but ir came too
late and too few used it that it went bankrupt.
"Swampy" is truly no big deal to handle.
You don't build at grade and
you don't build basements below high water level. Chicago has ignored
that over the decades, hence Deep Tunnel, the world's longest and most expensive public works project of its kind, which follows major rivers
way the hell below the service and dumps water into spent quarries.
It'll never be finished and, to this day, we still build basements.
Where I am we have overhead sewers, which means water infiltration is
lifted 8 feet so we can have a basement. But an extremely heavy rain
could certainly overwhelm the pumps. And this area wasn't swampy.
Rhino <no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:
I had no idea there were unincorporated areas surrounded by Chicago. But
why would Gacy's existence preclude the idea of ever incorporating those
areas?
Notoriety
The swamp underlying much of Chicago explains why Gacy had issues with
burying bodies in his crawl space and had to dispose of many of them
elsewhere. You have to wonder why Chicago was chosen as the site of a
city under the circumstances, not that there aren't precedents, like
Venice and New Orleans. There must have been drier places along the
coast of Lake Michigan or with easy access to the Lake.
The Illinois and Michigan Canal project began with the main branch of
the Chicago River and its south branch and portions of the Des Plaines
River through a very swampy area were rechanelized. There was a much deeper portion of the Des Plaines River, which is what they were aiming at.
This flows into the Illinois River and eventually, the Mississippi
River.
There is a continental divide which gets crossed. The Potawatamie
Indians showed Lewis and Clark the portage, hence their exploration of
the interior.
The I&M Canal was quite successful, to be followed by the parallel
Sanitary and Ship Canal for much larger barge traffic that opened in
1901 and famously reversed the flow of the Chicago River.
There was a failed canal project, the Hennepin Canal, which was supposed
to shorten the distance to the Mississippi River from the Illinois River where the latter turns fron east-west to north-south, but ir came too
late and too few used it that it went bankrupt.
"Swampy" is truly no big deal to handle. You don't build at grade and
you don't build basements below high water level. Chicago has ignored
that over the decades, hence Deep Tunnel, the world's longest and most expensive public works project of its kind, which follows major rivers
way the hell below the service and dumps water into spent quarries.
It'll never be finished and, to this day, we still build basements.
2025-10-19 2:29 p.m., Adam H. Kerman wrote:
Rhino <no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:
I had no idea there were unincorporated areas surrounded by Chicago. But >>>why would Gacy's existence preclude the idea of ever incorporating those >>>areas?
Notoriety
I still don't understand. I remember a mass killing at a McDonalds in >California involving something like 25 dead back in the 70s. The
location was soon notorious. The McDonalds was bulldozed: problem
solved. I don't know if anything was built in its place but it could be
and I imagine the prospect becomes easier the longer it has been since
the incident.
Was Gacy's house torn down? Or does it still stand with new owners? Or
was it made into a memorial to the victims?
. . .
Venice is all too familiar with flooding. New Orleans certainly had big >issues during Hurricane Katrina due to its position near higher bodies
of water. Those seem like non-trivial concerns to me.
I'd never heard of Deep Tunnel until now unless it is the one I read
about in a book about government waste. (Specifically, a city engineer
was looking at some part of underground Chicago and noticed a leak that
he found concerning. He reported it to his supervisors and they agreed
that a quick and rather modestly priced repair was in order. But the
cost was higher than they could authorize without signoffs higher up the >chain. The higher-ups insisted on lots of reports and studies and
whatnot which took months. As they were working on the documentation to >support the funding request, the small leak turned into a very big leak >which eventually cost $5 BILLION to repair. This would have been 30
years ago or thereabouts.)
Where I am we have overhead sewers, which means water infiltration is >>lifted 8 feet so we can have a basement. But an extremely heavy rain
could certainly overwhelm the pumps. And this area wasn't swampy.
Overhead sewers? That's a new one on me. Then again, I've seen video of >places were the pipes are all on the outside and above the ground due to
the extreme cold and permafrost. I'm thinking of places in Siberia that
I've seen in videos.
Oct 19, 2025 at 11:29:40 AM PDT, Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com>:
u. . .
California wins again! The not-really-high-speed rail project is now the >costliest public works boondoggle in U.S. history. So you can take your Deep >Tunnel and stick it!
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