On Sat, 3 Jan 2026 17:48:35 -0000 (UTC), BTR1701 <atropos@mac.com>
wrote:
On Jan 3, 2026 at 2:53:42 AM PST, "shawn" <nanoflower@notforg.m.a.i.l.com> >> wrote:
Looks like we went to war last night with Venezuela.
Multiple bombs were dropped in Caracas centered on the military
installations. Then there were multiple helicopters sent in,
apparently to drop off troops to capture Maduro. It's unknown
if that was the sole purpose of this attack or if there is more to
come.
At least it looks like the bombing has stopped. Trump is supposed to
hold a press conference at 11AM. That's when we should find out just
what was the intent of this attack and if removing Maduro is the end
of it.
I?m ambivalent about all this. Maduro is a monster who was legitimately
indicted for actual crimes and he deserved to go down. His flirting with Iran
and China just sealed that deal. But I really wish Trump didn?t spend his
entire press conference basically saying, ?Now we?ve got all that oil and now
we?re going to make so much money.? I mean, even if that?s why you did all >> this, show a little PR sense and focus on stuff like ?Now the people of the >> Venezuela are free and we?ll be working on rebuilding the democracy that
existed before Maduro and Chavez and making sure those who are starving get >> fed?, etc. etc. ?Cause right now it just looks like you took over a sovereign
nation to steal their resources.
Which is what we did, take over the country for the oil. If there was
no oil there Trump would not care enough to send in the troops. Trump
is just making it clear why we did it.
On Jan 3, 2026 at 2:53:42 AM PST, "shawn" <nanoflower@notforg.m.a.i.l.com> wrote:
Looks like we went to war last night with Venezuela.
Multiple bombs were dropped in Caracas centered on the military
installations. Then there were multiple helicopters sent in,
apparently to drop off troops to capture Maduro. It's unknown
if that was the sole purpose of this attack or if there is more to
come.
At least it looks like the bombing has stopped. Trump is supposed to
hold a press conference at 11AM. That's when we should find out just
what was the intent of this attack and if removing Maduro is the end
of it.
I?m ambivalent about all this. Maduro is a monster who was legitimately indicted for actual crimes and he deserved to go down. His flirting with Iran and China just sealed that deal. But I really wish Trump didn?t spend his entire press conference basically saying, ?Now we?ve got all that oil and now we?re going to make so much money.? I mean, even if that?s why you did all this, show a little PR sense and focus on stuff like ?Now the people of the Venezuela are free and we?ll be working on rebuilding the democracy that existed before Maduro and Chavez and making sure those who are starving get fed?, etc. etc. ?Cause right now it just looks like you took over a sovereign nation to steal their resources.
On Jan 3, 2026 at 9:19:31 AM PST, Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com> wrote: >>super70s <super70s@super70s.invalid> wrote:
On 2026-01-03 10:53:42 +0000, shawn said:
Looks like we went to war last night with Venezuela.
Multiple bombs were dropped in Caracas centered on the military >>>>installations. Then there were multiple helicopters sent in,
apparently to drop off troops to capture Maduro. It's unknown
if that was the sole purpose of this attack or if there is more to >>>>come.
At least it looks like the bombing has stopped. Trump is supposed to >>>>hold a press conference at 11AM. That's when we should find out just >>>>what was the intent of this attack and if removing Maduro is the end
of it.
He's after that oil which the US doesn't particularly need, he'll be >>>dead before we could get their oil fields up and running anyway (5-10 >>>years). Venezuela supposedly has bigger oil reserves than Saudi Arabia.
It's utterly crap oil which is why it's better left in the ground. Highly >>polluting, costly to refine. If West Texas Intermediate Light Sweet Crude >>is the easiest to refine, this crap is at the opposite end of the scale.
I honestly had no idea that there were different qualities of oil in its raw >form. I always thought it was just all the same stuff.
Trump claims to have grabbed Maduro and his wife and is taking them for
a show trial in New York. I have no idea what crimes they committed
here.
https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/26454534-maduro-indictment-unsealed/
Jan 3, 2026 2:53:42 AM PST, shawn <nanoflower@notforg.m.a.i.l.com>:
Looks like we went to war last night with Venezuela.
Multiple bombs were dropped in Caracas centered on the military >>installations. Then there were multiple helicopters sent in,
apparently to drop off troops to capture Maduro. It's unknown
if that was the sole purpose of this attack or if there is more to
come.
At least it looks like the bombing has stopped. Trump is supposed to
hold a press conference at 11AM. That's when we should find out just
what was the intent of this attack and if removing Maduro is the end
of it.
I'm ambivalent about all this. Maduro is a monster who was legitimately >indicted for actual crimes and he deserved to go down. His flirting with
Iran and China just sealed that deal. But I really wish Trump didn't
spend his entire press conference basically saying, "Now we've got all
that oil and now we're going to make so much money." I mean, even if
that's why you did all this, show a little PR sense and focus on stuff
like "Now the people of the Venezuela are free and we'll be working on >rebuilding the democracy that existed before Maduro and Chavez and making >sure those who are starving get fed", etc. etc. 'Cause right now it just >looks like you took over a sovereign nation to steal their resources.
BTR1701 <atropos@mac.com> wrote:
Jan 3, 2026 2:53:42 AM PST, shawn <nanoflower@notforg.m.a.i.l.com>:
Looks like we went to war last night with Venezuela.
Multiple bombs were dropped in Caracas centered on the military
installations. Then there were multiple helicopters sent in,
apparently to drop off troops to capture Maduro. It's unknown
if that was the sole purpose of this attack or if there is more to
come.
At least it looks like the bombing has stopped. Trump is supposed to
hold a press conference at 11AM. That's when we should find out just
what was the intent of this attack and if removing Maduro is the end
of it.
I'm ambivalent about all this. Maduro is a monster who was legitimately
indicted for actual crimes and he deserved to go down. His flirting with
Iran and China just sealed that deal. But I really wish Trump didn't
spend his entire press conference basically saying, "Now we've got all
that oil and now we're going to make so much money." I mean, even if
that's why you did all this, show a little PR sense and focus on stuff
like "Now the people of the Venezuela are free and we'll be working on
rebuilding the democracy that existed before Maduro and Chavez and making
sure those who are starving get fed", etc. etc. 'Cause right now it just
looks like you took over a sovereign nation to steal their resources.
Even if there is a narcotrafficking case to be made, don't the people of Venezuala deserve the opportunity to prosecute this asshole?
On Jan 3, 2026 at 12:24:41 PM PST, ""Adam H. Kerman"" <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:
BTR1701 <atropos@mac.com> wrote:
Jan 3, 2026 2:53:42 AM PST, shawn <nanoflower@notforg.m.a.i.l.com>:
Looks like we went to war last night with Venezuela.
Multiple bombs were dropped in Caracas centered on the military
installations. Then there were multiple helicopters sent in,
apparently to drop off troops to capture Maduro. It's unknown
if that was the sole purpose of this attack or if there is more to
come.
At least it looks like the bombing has stopped. Trump is supposed to
hold a press conference at 11AM. That's when we should find out just
what was the intent of this attack and if removing Maduro is the end
of it.
I'm ambivalent about all this. Maduro is a monster who was legitimately
indicted for actual crimes and he deserved to go down. His flirting with >>> Iran and China just sealed that deal. But I really wish Trump didn't
spend his entire press conference basically saying, "Now we've got all
that oil and now we're going to make so much money." I mean, even if
that's why you did all this, show a little PR sense and focus on stuff
like "Now the people of the Venezuela are free and we'll be working on
rebuilding the democracy that existed before Maduro and Chavez and making >>> sure those who are starving get fed", etc. etc. 'Cause right now it just >>> looks like you took over a sovereign nation to steal their resources.
Even if there is a narcotrafficking case to be made, don't the people of
Venezuala deserve the opportunity to prosecute this asshole?
Well, if we're going with what the people of Venezuela want, they were dancing
in the streets with joy over the news of Maduro's capture and rendition.
On 1/3/2026 4:31 PM, BTR1701 wrote:
On Jan 3, 2026 at 12:24:41 PM PST, ""Adam H. Kerman"" <ahk@chinet.com>
wrote:
BTR1701 <atropos@mac.com> wrote:
Jan 3, 2026 2:53:42 AM PST, shawn <nanoflower@notforg.m.a.i.l.com>:
Looks like we went to war last night with Venezuela.
Multiple bombs were dropped in Caracas centered on the military
installations. Then there were multiple helicopters sent in,
apparently to drop off troops to capture Maduro. It's unknown
if that was the sole purpose of this attack or if there is more to
come.
At least it looks like the bombing has stopped. Trump is supposed to >>>>> hold a press conference at 11AM. That's when we should find out just >>>>> what was the intent of this attack and if removing Maduro is the end >>>>> of it.
I'm ambivalent about all this. Maduro is a monster who was legitimately >>>> indicted for actual crimes and he deserved to go down. His flirting with >>>> Iran and China just sealed that deal. But I really wish Trump didn't
spend his entire press conference basically saying, "Now we've got all >>>> that oil and now we're going to make so much money." I mean, even if
that's why you did all this, show a little PR sense and focus on stuff >>>> like "Now the people of the Venezuela are free and we'll be working on >>>> rebuilding the democracy that existed before Maduro and Chavez and making >>>> sure those who are starving get fed", etc. etc. 'Cause right now it just >>>> looks like you took over a sovereign nation to steal their resources.
Even if there is a narcotrafficking case to be made, don't the people of >>> Venezuala deserve the opportunity to prosecute this asshole?
Well, if we're going with what the people of Venezuela want, they were
dancing
in the streets with joy over the news of Maduro's capture and rendition.
Are you sure? Wasn't the toppling of Saddam's statue staged?
On Jan 3, 2026 at 12:24:41 PM PST, ""Adam H. Kerman"" <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:
BTR1701 <atropos@mac.com> wrote:
Jan 3, 2026 2:53:42 AM PST, shawn <nanoflower@notforg.m.a.i.l.com>:
Looks like we went to war last night with Venezuela.
Multiple bombs were dropped in Caracas centered on the military
installations. Then there were multiple helicopters sent in,
apparently to drop off troops to capture Maduro. It's unknown
if that was the sole purpose of this attack or if there is more to
come.
At least it looks like the bombing has stopped. Trump is supposed to
hold a press conference at 11AM. That's when we should find out just
what was the intent of this attack and if removing Maduro is the end
of it.
I'm ambivalent about all this. Maduro is a monster who was legitimately
indicted for actual crimes and he deserved to go down. His flirting with >>> Iran and China just sealed that deal. But I really wish Trump didn't
spend his entire press conference basically saying, "Now we've got all
that oil and now we're going to make so much money." I mean, even if
that's why you did all this, show a little PR sense and focus on stuff
like "Now the people of the Venezuela are free and we'll be working on
rebuilding the democracy that existed before Maduro and Chavez and making >>> sure those who are starving get fed", etc. etc. 'Cause right now it just >>> looks like you took over a sovereign nation to steal their resources.
Even if there is a narcotrafficking case to be made, don't the people of
Venezuala deserve the opportunity to prosecute this asshole?
Well, if we're going with what the people of Venezuela want, they were dancing >in the streets with joy over the news of Maduro's capture and rendition.
On 1/3/2026 4:31 PM, BTR1701 wrote:
"Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:
BTR1701 <atropos@mac.com> wrote:
I'm ambivalent about all this. Maduro is a monster who was legitimately >>>> indicted for actual crimes and he deserved to go down. His flirting with >>>> Iran and China just sealed that deal. But I really wish Trump didn't
spend his entire press conference basically saying, "Now we've got all >>>> that oil and now we're going to make so much money." I mean, even if
that's why you did all this, show a little PR sense and focus on stuff >>>> like "Now the people of the Venezuela are free and we'll be working on >>>> rebuilding the democracy that existed before Maduro and Chavez and
making sure those who are starving get fed", etc. etc. 'Cause right now >>>> it just looks like you took over a sovereign nation to steal their
resources.
Even if there is a narcotrafficking case to be made, don't the people of >>> Venezuala deserve the opportunity to prosecute this asshole?
Well, if we're going with what the people of Venezuela want, they were
dancing in the streets with joy over the news of Maduro's capture and
rendition.
Are you sure? Wasn't the toppling of Saddam's statue staged?
I'm ambivalent about all this. Maduro is a monster who was legitimately >indicted for actual crimes and he deserved to go down. His flirting with >Iran and China just sealed that deal.
On Jan 3, 2026 at 2:36:28 PM PST, "moviePig" <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote:
On 1/3/2026 4:31 PM, BTR1701 wrote:
On Jan 3, 2026 at 12:24:41 PM PST, ""Adam H. Kerman"" <ahk@chinet.com> >>> wrote:Are you sure? Wasn't the toppling of Saddam's statue staged?
BTR1701 <atropos@mac.com> wrote:
Jan 3, 2026 2:53:42 AM PST, shawn <nanoflower@notforg.m.a.i.l.com>: >>>>Even if there is a narcotrafficking case to be made, don't the people of >>>> Venezuala deserve the opportunity to prosecute this asshole?
Looks like we went to war last night with Venezuela.
Multiple bombs were dropped in Caracas centered on the military
installations. Then there were multiple helicopters sent in,
apparently to drop off troops to capture Maduro. It's unknown
if that was the sole purpose of this attack or if there is more to >>>>>> come.
At least it looks like the bombing has stopped. Trump is supposed to >>>>>> hold a press conference at 11AM. That's when we should find out just >>>>>> what was the intent of this attack and if removing Maduro is the end >>>>>> of it.
I'm ambivalent about all this. Maduro is a monster who was legitimately >>>>> indicted for actual crimes and he deserved to go down. His flirting with
Iran and China just sealed that deal. But I really wish Trump didn't >>>>> spend his entire press conference basically saying, "Now we've got all >>>>> that oil and now we're going to make so much money." I mean, even if >>>>> that's why you did all this, show a little PR sense and focus on stuff >>>>> like "Now the people of the Venezuela are free and we'll be working on >>>>> rebuilding the democracy that existed before Maduro and Chavez and making
sure those who are starving get fed", etc. etc. 'Cause right now it just
looks like you took over a sovereign nation to steal their resources. >>>>
Well, if we're going with what the people of Venezuela want, they were >>> dancing
in the streets with joy over the news of Maduro's capture and rendition. >>
Yes, I'm sure Trump went down to Doral, Florida and all the other places in the country where Venezuelan ex-pats have gathered and put on staged celebrations. <rolls eyes>
But I really wish Trump didn't spend his entire press conference
basically saying, "Now we've got all that oil and now we're going to
make so much money." I mean, even if that's why you did all this, show
a little PR sense and focus on stuff like "Now the people of the
Venezuela are free and we'll be working on
rebuilding the democracy that existed before Maduro and Chavez and
making sure those who are starving get fed", etc. etc. 'Cause right now
it just looks like you took over a sovereign nation to steal their resources.
On 1/3/2026 5:51 PM, BTR1701 wrote:
On Jan 3, 2026 at 2:36:28 PM PST, "moviePig" <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote:
On 1/3/2026 4:31 PM, BTR1701 wrote:
On Jan 3, 2026 at 12:24:41 PM PST, ""Adam H. Kerman"" <ahk@chinet.com> >>>> wrote:
BTR1701 <atropos@mac.com> wrote:
Jan 3, 2026 2:53:42 AM PST, shawn <nanoflower@notforg.m.a.i.l.com>: >>>>>Even if there is a narcotrafficking case to be made, don't the people of
Looks like we went to war last night with Venezuela.
Multiple bombs were dropped in Caracas centered on the military >>>>>>> installations. Then there were multiple helicopters sent in,
apparently to drop off troops to capture Maduro. It's unknown >>>>>>> if that was the sole purpose of this attack or if there is more to >>>>>>> come.
At least it looks like the bombing has stopped. Trump is supposed to >>>>>>> hold a press conference at 11AM. That's when we should find out just >>>>>>> what was the intent of this attack and if removing Maduro is the end >>>>>>> of it.
I'm ambivalent about all this. Maduro is a monster who was legitimately
indicted for actual crimes and he deserved to go down. His flirting with
Iran and China just sealed that deal. But I really wish Trump didn't >>>>>> spend his entire press conference basically saying, "Now we've got all
that oil and now we're going to make so much money." I mean, even if >>>>>> that's why you did all this, show a little PR sense and focus on stuff
like "Now the people of the Venezuela are free and we'll be working on
rebuilding the democracy that existed before Maduro and Chavez and making
sure those who are starving get fed", etc. etc. 'Cause right now it just
looks like you took over a sovereign nation to steal their resources. >>>>>
Venezuala deserve the opportunity to prosecute this asshole?
Well, if we're going with what the people of Venezuela want, they were >>>> dancing
in the streets with joy over the news of Maduro's capture and rendition.
Are you sure? Wasn't the toppling of Saddam's statue staged?
Yes, I'm sure Trump went down to Doral, Florida and all the other places in >> the country where Venezuelan ex-pats have gathered and put on staged
celebrations. <rolls eyes>
I seem to recall, post-conflict, videos of ecstatic Iraqi throngs
--videos that I naively accepted at face-value. I'd like to know why
you're so credulous in this instance, with so many similar circumstances
in play (not to mention a president demonstrably devoted to lying).
On 1/3/2026 5:51 PM, BTR1701 wrote:
On Jan 3, 2026 at 2:36:28 PM PST, "moviePig" <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote:
On 1/3/2026 4:31 PM, BTR1701 wrote:
On Jan 3, 2026 at 12:24:41 PM PST, ""Adam H. Kerman"" <ahk@chinet.com> >>>> wrote:
BTR1701 <atropos@mac.com> wrote:
Jan 3, 2026 2:53:42 AM PST, shawn <nanoflower@notforg.m.a.i.l.com>: >>>>>Even if there is a narcotrafficking case to be made, don't the people of
Looks like we went to war last night with Venezuela.
Multiple bombs were dropped in Caracas centered on the military >>>>>>> installations. Then there were multiple helicopters sent in,
apparently to drop off troops to capture Maduro. It's unknown >>>>>>> if that was the sole purpose of this attack or if there is more to >>>>>>> come.
At least it looks like the bombing has stopped. Trump is supposed to >>>>>>> hold a press conference at 11AM. That's when we should find out just >>>>>>> what was the intent of this attack and if removing Maduro is the end >>>>>>> of it.
I'm ambivalent about all this. Maduro is a monster who was legitimately
indicted for actual crimes and he deserved to go down. His flirting with
Iran and China just sealed that deal. But I really wish Trump didn't >>>>>> spend his entire press conference basically saying, "Now we've got all
that oil and now we're going to make so much money." I mean, even if >>>>>> that's why you did all this, show a little PR sense and focus on stuff
like "Now the people of the Venezuela are free and we'll be working on
rebuilding the democracy that existed before Maduro and Chavez and making
sure those who are starving get fed", etc. etc. 'Cause right now it just
looks like you took over a sovereign nation to steal their resources. >>>>>
Venezuala deserve the opportunity to prosecute this asshole?
Well, if we're going with what the people of Venezuela want, they were >>>> dancing
in the streets with joy over the news of Maduro's capture and rendition.
Are you sure? Wasn't the toppling of Saddam's statue staged?
Yes, I'm sure Trump went down to Doral, Florida and all the other places in >> the country where Venezuelan ex-pats have gathered and put on staged
celebrations. <rolls eyes>
I seem to recall, post-conflict, videos of ecstatic Iraqi throngs
--videos that I naively accepted at face-value.
On Sat, 3 Jan 2026 17:48:35 -0000 (UTC), BTR1701 <atropos@mac.com>
wrote:
On Jan 3, 2026 at 2:53:42 AM PST, "shawn" <nanoflower@notforg.m.a.i.l.com> >> wrote:
Looks like we went to war last night with Venezuela.
Multiple bombs were dropped in Caracas centered on the military
installations. Then there were multiple helicopters sent in,
apparently to drop off troops to capture Maduro. It's unknown
if that was the sole purpose of this attack or if there is more to
come.
At least it looks like the bombing has stopped. Trump is supposed to
hold a press conference at 11AM. That's when we should find out just
what was the intent of this attack and if removing Maduro is the end
of it.
I?m ambivalent about all this. Maduro is a monster who was legitimately
indicted for actual crimes and he deserved to go down. His flirting with Iran
and China just sealed that deal. But I really wish Trump didn?t spend his
entire press conference basically saying, ?Now we?ve got all that oil and now
we?re going to make so much money.? I mean, even if that?s why you did all >> this, show a little PR sense and focus on stuff like ?Now the people of the >> Venezuela are free and we?ll be working on rebuilding the democracy that
existed before Maduro and Chavez and making sure those who are starving get >> fed?, etc. etc. ?Cause right now it just looks like you took over a sovereign
nation to steal their resources.
Which is what we did, take over the country for the oil. If there was
no oil there Trump would not care enough to send in the troops. Trump
is just making it clear why we did it.
On 2026-01-03 17:52:29 +0000, shawn said:
On Sat, 3 Jan 2026 17:48:35 -0000 (UTC), BTR1701 <atropos@mac.com>
wrote:
On Jan 3, 2026 at 2:53:42 AM PST, "shawn" <nanoflower@notforg.m.a.i.l.com> >>> wrote:
Looks like we went to war last night with Venezuela.
Multiple bombs were dropped in Caracas centered on the military
installations. Then there were multiple helicopters sent in,
apparently to drop off troops to capture Maduro. It's unknown
if that was the sole purpose of this attack or if there is more to
come.
At least it looks like the bombing has stopped. Trump is supposed to
hold a press conference at 11AM. That's when we should find out just
what was the intent of this attack and if removing Maduro is the end
of it.
I?m ambivalent about all this. Maduro is a monster who was legitimately
indicted for actual crimes and he deserved to go down. His flirting with Iran
and China just sealed that deal. But I really wish Trump didn?t spend his >>> entire press conference basically saying, ?Now we?ve got all that oil and now
we?re going to make so much money.? I mean, even if that?s why you did all >>> this, show a little PR sense and focus on stuff like ?Now the people of the >>> Venezuela are free and we?ll be working on rebuilding the democracy that >>> existed before Maduro and Chavez and making sure those who are starving get >>> fed?, etc. etc. ?Cause right now it just looks like you took over a sovereign
nation to steal their resources.
Which is what we did, take over the country for the oil. If there was
no oil there Trump would not care enough to send in the troops. Trump
is just making it clear why we did it.
If his plan was to go after oil, then Trump the Chump is an even bigger >idiot than everyone already knows him to be. Venezuela produces less
than 1% of the world's oil supply, while the USA is already the top
producer at around 22%.
On Jan 3, 2026 at 7:54:42 PM PST, "moviePig" <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote:
On 1/3/2026 5:51 PM, BTR1701 wrote:
On Jan 3, 2026 at 2:36:28 PM PST, "moviePig" <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote: >>>> On 1/3/2026 4:31 PM, BTR1701 wrote:
"Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:
BTR1701 <atropos@mac.com> wrote:
I'm ambivalent about all this. Maduro is a monster who was legitimately
indicted for actual crimes and he deserved to go down. His flirting with
Iran and China just sealed that deal. But I really wish Trump didn't >>>>>>> spend his entire press conference basically saying, "Now we've got all
that oil and now we're going to make so much money." I mean, even if >>>>>>> that's why you did all this, show a little PR sense and focus on stuff
like "Now the people of the Venezuela are free and we'll be working on
rebuilding the democracy that existed before Maduro and Chavez and making
sure those who are starving get fed", etc. etc. 'Cause right now it just
looks like you took over a sovereign nation to steal their resources.
Even if there is a narcotrafficking case to be made, don't the people of
Venezuala deserve the opportunity to prosecute this asshole?
Well, if we're going with what the people of Venezuela want, they were >>>>> dancing in the streets with joy over the news of Maduro's capture and rendition.
Are you sure? Wasn't the toppling of Saddam's statue staged?
Yes, I'm sure Trump went down to Doral, Florida and all the other places in >>> the country where Venezuelan ex-pats have gathered and put on staged
celebrations. <rolls eyes>
I seem to recall, post-conflict, videos of ecstatic Iraqi throngs
--videos that I naively accepted at face-value. I'd like to know why
you're so credulous in this instance, with so many similar circumstances
in play (not to mention a president demonstrably devoted to lying).
Are you suggesting that all the mainstream media coverage of the celebrations >lacked legitimate effort at reporting? That we no longer have a functioning >media in America? Because that would be quite a bold step for you.
I'm ambivalent about all this. Maduro is a monster who was legitimately >indicted for actual crimes and he deserved to go down. His flirting with
Iran and China just sealed that deal. But I really wish Trump didn't
spend his entire press conference basically saying, "Now we've got all
that oil and now we're going to make so much money." I mean, even if
that's why you did all this, show a little PR sense and focus on stuff
like "Now the people of the Venezuela are free and we'll be working on >rebuilding the democracy that existed before Maduro and Chavez and making >sure those who are starving get fed", etc. etc. 'Cause right now it just >looks like you took over a sovereign nation to steal their resources.
On Jan 3, 2026 at 12:24:41 PM PST, ""Adam H. Kerman"" <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:
BTR1701 <atropos@mac.com> wrote:
Jan 3, 2026 2:53:42 AM PST, shawn <nanoflower@notforg.m.a.i.l.com>:
Looks like we went to war last night with Venezuela.
Multiple bombs were dropped in Caracas centered on the military
installations. Then there were multiple helicopters sent in,
apparently to drop off troops to capture Maduro. It's unknown
if that was the sole purpose of this attack or if there is more to
come.
At least it looks like the bombing has stopped. Trump is supposed to
hold a press conference at 11AM. That's when we should find out just
what was the intent of this attack and if removing Maduro is the end
of it.
I'm ambivalent about all this. Maduro is a monster who was legitimately
indicted for actual crimes and he deserved to go down. His flirting with >>> Iran and China just sealed that deal. But I really wish Trump didn't
spend his entire press conference basically saying, "Now we've got all
that oil and now we're going to make so much money." I mean, even if
that's why you did all this, show a little PR sense and focus on stuff
like "Now the people of the Venezuela are free and we'll be working on
rebuilding the democracy that existed before Maduro and Chavez and making >>> sure those who are starving get fed", etc. etc. 'Cause right now it just >>> looks like you took over a sovereign nation to steal their resources.
Even if there is a narcotrafficking case to be made, don't the people of
Venezuala deserve the opportunity to prosecute this asshole?
Well, if we're going with what the people of Venezuela want, they were dancing
in the streets with joy over the news of Maduro's capture and rendition.
BTR1701 <atropos@mac.com> wrote:
<snip>
But I really wish Trump didn't spend his entire press conference
basically saying, "Now we've got all that oil and now we're going to
make so much money." I mean, even if that's why you did all this, show
a little PR sense and focus on stuff like "Now the people of the
Venezuela are free and we'll be working on
rebuilding the democracy that existed before Maduro and Chavez and
making sure those who are starving get fed", etc. etc. 'Cause right
now it just looks like you took over a sovereign nation to steal their
resources.
Since when did Trump the Chump ever have any sense?!? The moronic
lunatic certainlty does not ever do anything for anyone else, just
himself and his own massively over-bloated ego.
On 2026-01-03 4:31 p.m., BTR1701 wrote:
On Jan 3, 2026 at 12:24:41 PM PST, ""Adam H. Kerman"" <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:Not that their feelings really matter to the media. The media need to
BTR1701 <atropos@mac.com> wrote:
Jan 3, 2026 2:53:42 AM PST, shawn <nanoflower@notforg.m.a.i.l.com>:
Looks like we went to war last night with Venezuela.
Multiple bombs were dropped in Caracas centered on the military
installations. Then there were multiple helicopters sent in,
apparently to drop off troops to capture Maduro. It's unknown
if that was the sole purpose of this attack or if there is more to
come.
At least it looks like the bombing has stopped. Trump is supposed to >>>>> hold a press conference at 11AM. That's when we should find out just >>>>> what was the intent of this attack and if removing Maduro is the end >>>>> of it.
I'm ambivalent about all this. Maduro is a monster who was legitimately >>>> indicted for actual crimes and he deserved to go down. His flirting with >>>> Iran and China just sealed that deal. But I really wish Trump didn't
spend his entire press conference basically saying, "Now we've got all >>>> that oil and now we're going to make so much money." I mean, even if
that's why you did all this, show a little PR sense and focus on stuff >>>> like "Now the people of the Venezuela are free and we'll be working on >>>> rebuilding the democracy that existed before Maduro and Chavez and making >>>> sure those who are starving get fed", etc. etc. 'Cause right now it just >>>> looks like you took over a sovereign nation to steal their resources.
Even if there is a narcotrafficking case to be made, don't the people of >>> Venezuala deserve the opportunity to prosecute this asshole?
Well, if we're going with what the people of Venezuela want, they were dancing
in the streets with joy over the news of Maduro's capture and rendition.
paint EVERYTHING Trump does in the worst possible light because they
hate him and that's all that matters. They either ignore previous
precedents like the arrest of Noriega or they insist this is different.
Viva the soon-to-be-free citizens of Venezuela and long may they enjoy
the restoration of democracy! (And yes, I know the current regime isn't
gone but I'm optimistic that they soon will be.)
Looks like we went to war last night with Venezuela.
On 1/3/2026 9:48 AM, BTR1701 wrote:
On Jan 3, 2026 at 2:53:42 AM PST, "shawn" <nanoflower@notforg.m.a.i.l.com> >> wrote:
Looks like we went to war last night with Venezuela.
Multiple bombs were dropped in Caracas centered on the military
installations. Then there were multiple helicopters sent in,
apparently to drop off troops to capture Maduro. It's unknown
if that was the sole purpose of this attack or if there is more to
come.
At least it looks like the bombing has stopped. Trump is supposed to
hold a press conference at 11AM. That's when we should find out just
what was the intent of this attack and if removing Maduro is the end
of it.
I?m ambivalent about all this. Maduro is a monster who was legitimately
indicted for actual crimes and he deserved to go down. His flirting with Iran
and China just sealed that deal. But I really wish Trump didn?t spend his
entire press conference basically saying, ?Now we?ve got all that oil and now
we?re going to make so much money.? I mean, even if that?s why you did all >> this, show a little PR sense and focus on stuff like ?Now the people of the >> Venezuela are free and we?ll be working on rebuilding the democracy that
existed before Maduro and Chavez and making sure those who are starving get >> fed?, etc. etc. ?Cause right now it just looks like you took over a sovereign
nation to steal their resources.
Because he did.
On 1/3/2026 4:31 PM, BTR1701 wrote:
On Jan 3, 2026 at 12:24:41 PM PST, ""Adam H. Kerman"" <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:
BTR1701 <atropos@mac.com> wrote:
Jan 3, 2026 2:53:42 AM PST, shawn <nanoflower@notforg.m.a.i.l.com>:
Looks like we went to war last night with Venezuela.
Multiple bombs were dropped in Caracas centered on the military
installations. Then there were multiple helicopters sent in,
apparently to drop off troops to capture Maduro. It's unknown
if that was the sole purpose of this attack or if there is more to
come.
At least it looks like the bombing has stopped. Trump is supposed to >>>>> hold a press conference at 11AM. That's when we should find out just >>>>> what was the intent of this attack and if removing Maduro is the end >>>>> of it.
I'm ambivalent about all this. Maduro is a monster who was legitimately >>>> indicted for actual crimes and he deserved to go down. His flirting with >>>> Iran and China just sealed that deal. But I really wish Trump didn't
spend his entire press conference basically saying, "Now we've got all >>>> that oil and now we're going to make so much money." I mean, even if
that's why you did all this, show a little PR sense and focus on stuff >>>> like "Now the people of the Venezuela are free and we'll be working on >>>> rebuilding the democracy that existed before Maduro and Chavez and making >>>> sure those who are starving get fed", etc. etc. 'Cause right now it just >>>> looks like you took over a sovereign nation to steal their resources.
Even if there is a narcotrafficking case to be made, don't the people of >>> Venezuala deserve the opportunity to prosecute this asshole?
Well, if we're going with what the people of Venezuela want, they were dancing
in the streets with joy over the news of Maduro's capture and rendition.
Are you sure? Wasn't the toppling of Saddam's statue staged?
In article <10jcq4m$1okcl$1@dont-email.me>, atropos@mac.com wrote:
On Jan 3, 2026 at 7:54:42 PM PST, "moviePig" <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote:
On 1/3/2026 5:51 PM, BTR1701 wrote:
On Jan 3, 2026 at 2:36:28 PM PST, "moviePig" <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote: >>>>> On 1/3/2026 4:31 PM, BTR1701 wrote:
"Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:
BTR1701 <atropos@mac.com> wrote:
I'm ambivalent about all this. Maduro is a monster who was legitimately
indicted for actual crimes and he deserved to go down. His flirting with
Iran and China just sealed that deal. But I really wish Trump didn't
spend his entire press conference basically saying, "Now we've got all
that oil and now we're going to make so much money." I mean, even if
that's why you did all this, show a little PR sense and focus on stuff
like "Now the people of the Venezuela are free and we'll be working on
rebuilding the democracy that existed before Maduro and Chavez and making
sure those who are starving get fed", etc. etc. 'Cause right now it just
looks like you took over a sovereign nation to steal their resources.
Even if there is a narcotrafficking case to be made, don't the people of
Venezuala deserve the opportunity to prosecute this asshole?
Well, if we're going with what the people of Venezuela want, they were >>>>>> dancing in the streets with joy over the news of Maduro's capture and rendition.
Are you sure? Wasn't the toppling of Saddam's statue staged?
Yes, I'm sure Trump went down to Doral, Florida and all the other places in
the country where Venezuelan ex-pats have gathered and put on staged
celebrations. <rolls eyes>
I seem to recall, post-conflict, videos of ecstatic Iraqi throngs
--videos that I naively accepted at face-value. I'd like to know why
you're so credulous in this instance, with so many similar circumstances >>> in play (not to mention a president demonstrably devoted to lying).
Are you suggesting that all the mainstream media coverage of the celebrations >>lacked legitimate effort at reporting? That we no longer have a functioning >>media in America? Because that would be quite a bold step for you.
If memory serves, moviepig is referring to photos released by the liberal media
an hour before or after a statue-toppling, claiming it was "proof" that the >event was staged. They did the same thing when trying to claim attendance at Trump's
Inaguaration was very low.
Some things never change.
On 2026-01-03 17:52:29 +0000, shawn said:
On Sat, 3 Jan 2026 17:48:35 -0000 (UTC), BTR1701 <atropos@mac.com>
wrote:
On Jan 3, 2026 at 2:53:42 AM PST, "shawn"
<nanoflower@notforg.m.a.i.l.com>
wrote:
Looks like we went to war last night with Venezuela.
Multiple bombs were dropped in Caracas centered on the military
installations. Then there were multiple helicopters sent in,
apparently to drop off troops to capture Maduro. It's unknown
if that was the sole purpose of this attack or if there is more to
come.
At least it looks like the bombing has stopped. Trump is supposed to
hold a press conference at 11AM. That's when we should find out just
what was the intent of this attack and if removing Maduro is the end
of it.
I?m ambivalent about all this. Maduro is a monster who was legitimately
indicted for actual crimes and he deserved to go down. His flirting
with Iran
and China just sealed that deal. But I really wish Trump didn?t spend
his
entire press conference basically saying, ?Now we?ve got all that oil
and now
we?re going to make so much money.? I mean, even if that?s why you
did all
this, show a little PR sense and focus on stuff like ?Now the people
of the
Venezuela are free and we?ll be working on rebuilding the democracy that >>> existed before Maduro and Chavez and making sure those who are
starving get
fed?, etc. etc. ?Cause right now it just looks like you took over a
sovereign
nation to steal their resources.
Which is what we did, take over the country for the oil. If there was
no oil there Trump would not care enough to send in the troops. Trump
is just making it clear why we did it.
If his plan was to go after oil, then Trump the Chump is an even bigger idiot than everyone already knows him to be. Venezuela produces less
than 1% of the world's oil supply, while the USA is already the top
producer at around 22%.
Are you sure? Wasn't the toppling of Saddam's statue staged?
Laughter!
On Jan 3, 2026 at 7:54:42 PM PST, "moviePig" <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote:
On 1/3/2026 5:51 PM, BTR1701 wrote:
On Jan 3, 2026 at 2:36:28 PM PST, "moviePig" <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote: >>>
On 1/3/2026 4:31 PM, BTR1701 wrote:
On Jan 3, 2026 at 12:24:41 PM PST, ""Adam H. Kerman"" <ahk@chinet.com>
wrote:
BTR1701 <atropos@mac.com> wrote:
Jan 3, 2026 2:53:42 AM PST, shawn <nanoflower@notforg.m.a.i.l.com>: >>>>>>
Looks like we went to war last night with Venezuela.
Multiple bombs were dropped in Caracas centered on the military >>>>>>>> installations. Then there were multiple helicopters sent in, >>>>>>>> apparently to drop off troops to capture Maduro. It's unknown >>>>>>>> if that was the sole purpose of this attack or if there is more to >>>>>>>> come.
At least it looks like the bombing has stopped. Trump is supposed to
hold a press conference at 11AM. That's when we should find out just
what was the intent of this attack and if removing Maduro is the end
of it.
I'm ambivalent about all this. Maduro is a monster who was legitimately
indicted for actual crimes and he deserved to go down. His flirting with
Iran and China just sealed that deal. But I really wish Trump didn't
spend his entire press conference basically saying, "Now we've got all
that oil and now we're going to make so much money." I mean, even if
that's why you did all this, show a little PR sense and focus on stuff
like "Now the people of the Venezuela are free and we'll be working on
rebuilding the democracy that existed before Maduro and Chavez and making
sure those who are starving get fed", etc. etc. 'Cause right now it just
looks like you took over a sovereign nation to steal their resources.
Even if there is a narcotrafficking case to be made, don't the people of
Venezuala deserve the opportunity to prosecute this asshole?
Well, if we're going with what the people of Venezuela want, they were
dancing
in the streets with joy over the news of Maduro's capture and rendition.
Are you sure? Wasn't the toppling of Saddam's statue staged?
Yes, I'm sure Trump went down to Doral, Florida and all the other places in
the country where Venezuelan ex-pats have gathered and put on staged
celebrations. <rolls eyes>
I seem to recall, post-conflict, videos of ecstatic Iraqi throngs
--videos that I naively accepted at face-value.
https://www.instagram.com/reels/DTEUXfFEX8v/
On 2026-01-03 17:52:29 +0000, shawn said:
On Sat, 3 Jan 2026 17:48:35 -0000 (UTC), BTR1701 <atropos@mac.com>
wrote:
On Jan 3, 2026 at 2:53:42 AM PST, "shawn" <nanoflower@notforg.m.a.i.l.com> >>> wrote:
Looks like we went to war last night with Venezuela.
Multiple bombs were dropped in Caracas centered on the military
installations. Then there were multiple helicopters sent in,
apparently to drop off troops to capture Maduro. It's unknown
if that was the sole purpose of this attack or if there is more to
come.
At least it looks like the bombing has stopped. Trump is supposed to
hold a press conference at 11AM. That's when we should find out just
what was the intent of this attack and if removing Maduro is the end
of it.
I?m ambivalent about all this. Maduro is a monster who was legitimately >>> indicted for actual crimes and he deserved to go down. His flirting with >>> Iran
and China just sealed that deal. But I really wish Trump didn?t spend his >>> entire press conference basically saying, ?Now we?ve got all that oil and >>> now
we?re going to make so much money.? I mean, even if that?s why you did all >>> this, show a little PR sense and focus on stuff like ?Now the people of the
Venezuela are free and we?ll be working on rebuilding the democracy that >>> existed before Maduro and Chavez and making sure those who are starving get
fed?, etc. etc. ?Cause right now it just looks like you took over a
sovereign
nation to steal their resources.
Which is what we did, take over the country for the oil. If there was
no oil there Trump would not care enough to send in the troops. Trump
is just making it clear why we did it.
If his plan was to go after oil, then Trump the Chump is an even bigger idiot than everyone already knows him to be. Venezuela produces less
than 1% of the world's oil supply, while the USA is already the top
producer at around 22%.
On 1/3/2026 5:51 PM, BTR1701 wrote:
On Jan 3, 2026 at 2:36:28 PM PST, "moviePig" <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote:
On 1/3/2026 4:31 PM, BTR1701 wrote:
On Jan 3, 2026 at 12:24:41 PM PST, ""Adam H. Kerman"" <ahk@chinet.com> >>>> wrote:
BTR1701 <atropos@mac.com> wrote:
Jan 3, 2026 2:53:42 AM PST, shawn <nanoflower@notforg.m.a.i.l.com>: >>>>>Even if there is a narcotrafficking case to be made, don't the people of
Looks like we went to war last night with Venezuela.
Multiple bombs were dropped in Caracas centered on the military >>>>>>> installations. Then there were multiple helicopters sent in,
apparently to drop off troops to capture Maduro. It's unknown >>>>>>> if that was the sole purpose of this attack or if there is more to >>>>>>> come.
At least it looks like the bombing has stopped. Trump is supposed to >>>>>>> hold a press conference at 11AM. That's when we should find out just >>>>>>> what was the intent of this attack and if removing Maduro is the end >>>>>>> of it.
I'm ambivalent about all this. Maduro is a monster who was legitimately
indicted for actual crimes and he deserved to go down. His flirting with
Iran and China just sealed that deal. But I really wish Trump didn't >>>>>> spend his entire press conference basically saying, "Now we've got all
that oil and now we're going to make so much money." I mean, even if >>>>>> that's why you did all this, show a little PR sense and focus on stuff
like "Now the people of the Venezuela are free and we'll be working on
rebuilding the democracy that existed before Maduro and Chavez and making
sure those who are starving get fed", etc. etc. 'Cause right now it just
looks like you took over a sovereign nation to steal their resources. >>>>>
Venezuala deserve the opportunity to prosecute this asshole?
Well, if we're going with what the people of Venezuela want, they were >>>> dancing
in the streets with joy over the news of Maduro's capture and rendition.
Are you sure? Wasn't the toppling of Saddam's statue staged?
Yes, I'm sure Trump went down to Doral, Florida and all the other places in >> the country where Venezuelan ex-pats have gathered and put on staged
celebrations. <rolls eyes>
I seem to recall, post-conflict, videos of ecstatic Iraqi throngs
--videos that I naively accepted at face-value. I'd like to know why
you're so credulous in this instance, with so many similar circumstances
in play (not to mention a president demonstrably devoted to lying).
BTR1701 <atropos@mac.com> wrote:
I'm ambivalent about all this. Maduro is a monster who was legitimately
indicted for actual crimes and he deserved to go down. His flirting with
Iran and China just sealed that deal. But I really wish Trump didn't
spend his entire press conference basically saying, "Now we've got all
that oil and now we're going to make so much money." I mean, even if
that's why you did all this, show a little PR sense and focus on stuff
like "Now the people of the Venezuela are free and we'll be working on
rebuilding the democracy that existed before Maduro and Chavez and making
sure those who are starving get fed", etc. etc. 'Cause right now it just
looks like you took over a sovereign nation to steal their resources.
Correct me if I am wrong, but weren't Dems for the last four years or so wringing their hands about "doing something" about Maduro and didn't Biden put a $25M bounty on him?
On Jan 3, 2026 at 7:54:42 PM PST, "moviePig" <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote:
On 1/3/2026 5:51 PM, BTR1701 wrote:
On Jan 3, 2026 at 2:36:28 PM PST, "moviePig" <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote: >>>
On 1/3/2026 4:31 PM, BTR1701 wrote:
On Jan 3, 2026 at 12:24:41 PM PST, ""Adam H. Kerman"" <ahk@chinet.com>
wrote:
BTR1701 <atropos@mac.com> wrote:
Jan 3, 2026 2:53:42 AM PST, shawn <nanoflower@notforg.m.a.i.l.com>: >>>>>>
Looks like we went to war last night with Venezuela.
Multiple bombs were dropped in Caracas centered on the military >>>>>>>> installations. Then there were multiple helicopters sent in, >>>>>>>> apparently to drop off troops to capture Maduro. It's unknown >>>>>>>> if that was the sole purpose of this attack or if there is more to >>>>>>>> come.
At least it looks like the bombing has stopped. Trump is supposed to
hold a press conference at 11AM. That's when we should find out just
what was the intent of this attack and if removing Maduro is the end
of it.
I'm ambivalent about all this. Maduro is a monster who was legitimately
indicted for actual crimes and he deserved to go down. His flirting with
Iran and China just sealed that deal. But I really wish Trump didn't
spend his entire press conference basically saying, "Now we've got all
that oil and now we're going to make so much money." I mean, even if
that's why you did all this, show a little PR sense and focus on stuff
like "Now the people of the Venezuela are free and we'll be working on
rebuilding the democracy that existed before Maduro and Chavez and making
sure those who are starving get fed", etc. etc. 'Cause right now it just
looks like you took over a sovereign nation to steal their resources.
Even if there is a narcotrafficking case to be made, don't the people of
Venezuala deserve the opportunity to prosecute this asshole?
Well, if we're going with what the people of Venezuela want, they were
dancing
in the streets with joy over the news of Maduro's capture and rendition.
Are you sure? Wasn't the toppling of Saddam's statue staged?
Yes, I'm sure Trump went down to Doral, Florida and all the other places in
the country where Venezuelan ex-pats have gathered and put on staged
celebrations. <rolls eyes>
I seem to recall, post-conflict, videos of ecstatic Iraqi throngs
--videos that I naively accepted at face-value. I'd like to know why
you're so credulous in this instance, with so many similar circumstances
in play (not to mention a president demonstrably devoted to lying).
I've been greatly amused over the last 24 hours watching activists and pundits
claiming to be "standing with the people of Venezuela against imperialist violence", only to be left sputtering and speechless when shown clip after clip of the actual people of Venezuela celebrating the actions of the United States in ridding them of a monster.
In one memorable instance, a communist activist in Times Square waving the red
hammer-and-sickle banner and shouting "solidarity with the people of Venezuela!" was informed by an interviewer that the Venezuelan people were currently about 30 blocks south, gathered around the Manhattan Courthouse, and
praising the arrest and rendition of Maduro. The commie refused to believe it so the interviewer pulled up live news coverage of it on his phone and showed it to him, then asked, "So are you still in solidarity with the people of Venezuela or are you really just in solidarity with a brutal authoritarian regime?" The commie tried to hit the guy with his flagpole in response.
On Jan 3, 2026 at 11:19:50 PM PST, "Ubiquitous" <weberm@polaris.net> wrote:
BTR1701 <atropos@mac.com> wrote:
I'm ambivalent about all this. Maduro is a monster who was legitimately
indicted for actual crimes and he deserved to go down. His flirting with >>> Iran and China just sealed that deal. But I really wish Trump didn't
spend his entire press conference basically saying, "Now we've got all
that oil and now we're going to make so much money." I mean, even if
that's why you did all this, show a little PR sense and focus on stuff
like "Now the people of the Venezuela are free and we'll be working on
rebuilding the democracy that existed before Maduro and Chavez and making >>> sure those who are starving get fed", etc. etc. 'Cause right now it just >>> looks like you took over a sovereign nation to steal their resources.
Correct me if I am wrong, but weren't Dems for the last four years or so
wringing their hands about "doing something" about Maduro and didn't Biden >> put a $25M bounty on him?
It is true that a lot of the Democrats who are now screeching about "violating
international law by kidnapping a head of state" are having to explain a lot of inconvenient tweets and statements that are barely a year old where they literally said things like, "Maduro is an illegitimate and brutal dictator whole stole an election and should be removed". Now that Trump has done exactly what they called for, he's suddenly a war criminal or something.
On 1/4/2026 2:34 PM, BTR1701 wrote:
On Jan 3, 2026 at 11:19:50 PM PST, "Ubiquitous" <weberm@polaris.net> wrote: >>
BTR1701 <atropos@mac.com> wrote:
I'm ambivalent about all this. Maduro is a monster who was legitimately >>>> indicted for actual crimes and he deserved to go down. His flirting with >>>> Iran and China just sealed that deal. But I really wish Trump didn't
spend his entire press conference basically saying, "Now we've got all >>>> that oil and now we're going to make so much money." I mean, even if
that's why you did all this, show a little PR sense and focus on stuff >>>> like "Now the people of the Venezuela are free and we'll be working on >>>> rebuilding the democracy that existed before Maduro and Chavez and making >>>> sure those who are starving get fed", etc. etc. 'Cause right now it just >>>> looks like you took over a sovereign nation to steal their resources.
Correct me if I am wrong, but weren't Dems for the last four years or so >>> wringing their hands about "doing something" about Maduro and didn't Biden >>> put a $25M bounty on him?
It is true that a lot of the Democrats who are now screeching about
"violating
international law by kidnapping a head of state" are having to explain a lot
of inconvenient tweets and statements that are barely a year old where they >> literally said things like, "Maduro is an illegitimate and brutal dictator >> whole stole an election and should be removed". Now that Trump has done
exactly what they called for, he's suddenly a war criminal or something.
Bernie Sanders maintains both assertions. They're not inconsistent.
On Sun, 4 Jan 2026 20:01:41 +1300, Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com>
wrote:
On 2026-01-03 17:52:29 +0000, shawn said:
On Sat, 3 Jan 2026 17:48:35 -0000 (UTC), BTR1701 <atropos@mac.com>
wrote:
On Jan 3, 2026 at 2:53:42 AM PST, "shawn" <nanoflower@notforg.m.a.i.l.com> >>>> wrote:
Looks like we went to war last night with Venezuela. Multiple bombs >>>>> were dropped in Caracas centered on the military installations. Then >>>>> there were multiple helicopters sent in, apparently to drop off troops >>>>> to capture Maduro. It's unknown if that was the sole purpose of this >>>>> attack or if there is more to come.
At least it looks like the bombing has stopped. Trump is supposed to >>>>> hold a press conference at 11AM. That's when we should find out just >>>>> what was the intent of this attack and if removing Maduro is the end >>>>> of it.
I?m ambivalent about all this. Maduro is a monster who was legitimately >>>> indicted for actual crimes and he deserved to go down. His flirting
with Iran and China just sealed that deal. But I really wish Trump
didn?t spend his entire press conference basically saying, ?Now
we?ve got all that oil and now we?re going to make so much
money.? I mean, even if that?s why you did all this, show a little
PR sense and focus on stuff like ?Now the people of the Venezuela are >>>> free and we?ll be working on rebuilding the democracy that existed
before Maduro and Chavez and making sure those who are starving get
fed?, etc. etc. ?Cause right now it just looks like you took over a
sovereign nation to steal their resources.
Which is what we did, take over the country for the oil. If there was
no oil there Trump would not care enough to send in the troops. Trump
is just making it clear why we did it.
If his plan was to go after oil, then Trump the Chump is an even bigger
idiot than everyone already knows him to be. Venezuela produces less
than 1% of the world's oil supply, while the USA is already the top
producer at around 22%.
He explicitly said the idea is to heavily invest in their production capabilities and thus increase the amount of oil they have for sale.
On Sun, 4 Jan 2026 07:25:02 -0500, Rhino
<no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:
On 2026-01-03 4:31 p.m., BTR1701 wrote:
On Jan 3, 2026 at 12:24:41 PM PST, ""Adam H. Kerman"" <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:
BTR1701 <atropos@mac.com> wrote:
Jan 3, 2026 2:53:42 AM PST, shawn <nanoflower@notforg.m.a.i.l.com>:Even if there is a narcotrafficking case to be made, don't the people of >>>> Venezuala deserve the opportunity to prosecute this asshole?
Looks like we went to war last night with Venezuela.
Multiple bombs were dropped in Caracas centered on the military
installations. Then there were multiple helicopters sent in,
apparently to drop off troops to capture Maduro. It's unknown
if that was the sole purpose of this attack or if there is more to >>>>>> come.
At least it looks like the bombing has stopped. Trump is supposed to >>>>>> hold a press conference at 11AM. That's when we should find out just >>>>>> what was the intent of this attack and if removing Maduro is the end >>>>>> of it.
I'm ambivalent about all this. Maduro is a monster who was legitimately >>>>> indicted for actual crimes and he deserved to go down. His flirting with >>>>> Iran and China just sealed that deal. But I really wish Trump didn't >>>>> spend his entire press conference basically saying, "Now we've got all >>>>> that oil and now we're going to make so much money." I mean, even if >>>>> that's why you did all this, show a little PR sense and focus on stuff >>>>> like "Now the people of the Venezuela are free and we'll be working on >>>>> rebuilding the democracy that existed before Maduro and Chavez and making >>>>> sure those who are starving get fed", etc. etc. 'Cause right now it just >>>>> looks like you took over a sovereign nation to steal their resources. >>>>
Well, if we're going with what the people of Venezuela want, they were dancing
in the streets with joy over the news of Maduro's capture and rendition.
Not that their feelings really matter to the media. The media need to
paint EVERYTHING Trump does in the worst possible light because they
hate him and that's all that matters. They either ignore previous
precedents like the arrest of Noriega or they insist this is different.
Um, correct me if I'm wrong but did we decide that we were going to
run the country after Noriega and take the resources of the country?
I don't believe we did but that was what Trump said we were doing in
his speech.
Viva the soon-to-be-free citizens of Venezuela and long may they enjoy
the restoration of democracy! (And yes, I know the current regime isn't
gone but I'm optimistic that they soon will be.)
Hopefully that happens, but sadly, we haven't had a great track record
in rebuilding countries.
On 1/3/2026 11:01 PM, Your Name wrote:
On 2026-01-03 17:52:29 +0000, shawn said:
On Sat, 3 Jan 2026 17:48:35 -0000 (UTC), BTR1701 <atropos@mac.com>
wrote:
On Jan 3, 2026 at 2:53:42 AM PST, "shawn" <nanoflower@notforg.m.a.i.l.com> >>>> wrote:
Looks like we went to war last night with Venezuela.
Multiple bombs were dropped in Caracas centered on the military
installations. Then there were multiple helicopters sent in,
apparently to drop off troops to capture Maduro. It's unknown
if that was the sole purpose of this attack or if there is more to
come.
At least it looks like the bombing has stopped. Trump is supposed to >>>>> hold a press conference at 11AM. That's when we should find out just >>>>> what was the intent of this attack and if removing Maduro is the end >>>>> of it.
I?m ambivalent about all this. Maduro is a monster who was legitimately >>>> indicted for actual crimes and he deserved to go down. His flirting
with Iran and China just sealed that deal. But I really wish Trump
didn?t spend his entire press conference basically saying, ?Now we?ve >>>> got all that oil and now we?re going to make so much money.? I mean,
even if that?s why you did all this, show a little PR sense and focus >>>> on stuff like ?Now the people of the Venezuela are free and we?ll be
working on rebuilding the democracy that existed before Maduro and
Chavez and making sure those who are starving get fed?, etc. etc.
?Cause right now it just looks like you took over a sovereign nation to >>>> steal their resources.
Which is what we did, take over the country for the oil. If there was
no oil there Trump would not care enough to send in the troops. Trump
is just making it clear why we did it.
If his plan was to go after oil, then Trump the Chump is an even bigger
idiot than everyone already knows him to be. Venezuela produces less
than 1% of the world's oil supply, while the USA is already the top
producer at around 22%.
Right now, but he said thet's due to poor maintnance of their oil production. They've got more reserves than the Saudis.
On Jan 4, 2026 at 12:10:50 PM PST, "moviePig" <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote:
On 1/4/2026 2:34 PM, BTR1701 wrote:
On Jan 3, 2026 at 11:19:50 PM PST, "Ubiquitous" <weberm@polaris.net> wrote:Bernie Sanders maintains both assertions. They're not inconsistent.
BTR1701 <atropos@mac.com> wrote:
I'm ambivalent about all this. Maduro is a monster who was legitimately >>>>> indicted for actual crimes and he deserved to go down. His flirting withCorrect me if I am wrong, but weren't Dems for the last four years or so >>>> wringing their hands about "doing something" about Maduro and didn't Biden
Iran and China just sealed that deal. But I really wish Trump didn't >>>>> spend his entire press conference basically saying, "Now we've got all >>>>> that oil and now we're going to make so much money." I mean, even if >>>>> that's why you did all this, show a little PR sense and focus on stuff >>>>> like "Now the people of the Venezuela are free and we'll be working on >>>>> rebuilding the democracy that existed before Maduro and Chavez and making
sure those who are starving get fed", etc. etc. 'Cause right now it just
looks like you took over a sovereign nation to steal their resources. >>>>
put a $25M bounty on him?
It is true that a lot of the Democrats who are now screeching about
"violating
international law by kidnapping a head of state" are having to explain a lot
of inconvenient tweets and statements that are barely a year old where they
literally said things like, "Maduro is an illegitimate and brutal dictator
whole stole an election and should be removed". Now that Trump has done >>> exactly what they called for, he's suddenly a war criminal or something. >>
Then who's going to remove Maduro if not someone like Trump? It's not like his
own people can just do it themselves.
It is true that a lot of the Democrats who are now screeching about "violating >international law by kidnapping a head of state" are having to explain a lot >of inconvenient tweets and statements that are barely a year old where they >literally said things like, "Maduro is an illegitimate and brutal dictator >whole stole an election and should be removed". Now that Trump has done >exactly what they called for, he's suddenly a war criminal or something.
On 2026-01-04 08:17:25 +0000, shawn said:
On Sun, 4 Jan 2026 20:01:41 +1300, Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com>
wrote:
On 2026-01-03 17:52:29 +0000, shawn said:
On Sat, 3 Jan 2026 17:48:35 -0000 (UTC), BTR1701 <atropos@mac.com>
wrote:
On Jan 3, 2026 at 2:53:42 AM PST, "shawn"
<nanoflower@notforg.m.a.i.l.com>
wrote:
Looks like we went to war last night with Venezuela. Multiple
bombs were dropped in Caracas centered on the military
installations. Then there were multiple helicopters sent in,
apparently to drop off troops to capture Maduro. It's unknown if
that was the sole purpose of this attack or if there is more to come. >>>>>>
At least it looks like the bombing has stopped. Trump is supposed to >>>>>> hold a press conference at 11AM. That's when we should find out just >>>>>> what was the intent of this attack and if removing Maduro is the end >>>>>> of it.
Iƒ??m ambivalent about all this. Maduro is a monster who was
legitimately
indicted for actual crimes and he deserved to go down. His flirting >>>>> with Iran and China just sealed that deal. But I really wish Trump
didnƒ??t spend his entire press conference basically saying, ƒ??Now >>>>> weƒ??ve got all that oil and now weƒ??re going to make so much
money.ƒ?? I mean, even if thatƒ??s why you did all this, show a
little PR sense and focus on stuff like ƒ??Now the people of the
Venezuela are free and weƒ??ll be working on rebuilding the
democracy that existed before Maduro and Chavez and making sure
those who are starving get fedƒ??, etc. etc. ƒ??Cause right now it
just looks like you took over a sovereign nation to steal their
resources.
Which is what we did, take over the country for the oil. If there was
no oil there Trump would not care enough to send in the troops. Trump
is just making it clear why we did it.
If his plan was to go after oil, then Trump the Chump is an even bigger
idiot than everyone already knows him to be. Venezuela produces less
than 1% of the world's oil supply, while the USA is already the top
producer at around 22%.
Heÿ explicitly said the idea is to heavily invest in their production
capabilities and thus increase the amount of oil they have for sale.
The moron can waste as much US tax-payer money as he wants (and probably will, unless sane people stop him yet again), but the net result is
still going to be next to nothing in the total world production.
The reality is that Trump the Chump joins a "distinguished" group of
moron presidents who stupidly stuck their noses into other countries and simply created even bigger problems.ÿ :-\
On Sun, 4 Jan 2026 07:25:02 -0500, Rhino
<no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:
On 2026-01-03 4:31 p.m., BTR1701 wrote:
On Jan 3, 2026 at 12:24:41 PM PST, ""Adam H. Kerman"" <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:Not that their feelings really matter to the media. The media need to
BTR1701 <atropos@mac.com> wrote:
Jan 3, 2026 2:53:42 AM PST, shawn <nanoflower@notforg.m.a.i.l.com>:Even if there is a narcotrafficking case to be made, don't the people of >>>> Venezuala deserve the opportunity to prosecute this asshole?
Looks like we went to war last night with Venezuela.
Multiple bombs were dropped in Caracas centered on the military
installations. Then there were multiple helicopters sent in,
apparently to drop off troops to capture Maduro. It's unknown
if that was the sole purpose of this attack or if there is more to >>>>>> come.
At least it looks like the bombing has stopped. Trump is supposed to >>>>>> hold a press conference at 11AM. That's when we should find out just >>>>>> what was the intent of this attack and if removing Maduro is the end >>>>>> of it.
I'm ambivalent about all this. Maduro is a monster who was legitimately >>>>> indicted for actual crimes and he deserved to go down. His flirting with >>>>> Iran and China just sealed that deal. But I really wish Trump didn't >>>>> spend his entire press conference basically saying, "Now we've got all >>>>> that oil and now we're going to make so much money." I mean, even if >>>>> that's why you did all this, show a little PR sense and focus on stuff >>>>> like "Now the people of the Venezuela are free and we'll be working on >>>>> rebuilding the democracy that existed before Maduro and Chavez and making >>>>> sure those who are starving get fed", etc. etc. 'Cause right now it just >>>>> looks like you took over a sovereign nation to steal their resources. >>>>
Well, if we're going with what the people of Venezuela want, they were dancing
in the streets with joy over the news of Maduro's capture and rendition. >>>
paint EVERYTHING Trump does in the worst possible light because they
hate him and that's all that matters. They either ignore previous
precedents like the arrest of Noriega or they insist this is different.
Um, correct me if I'm wrong but did we decide that we were going to
run the country after Noriega and take the resources of the country?
I don't believe we did but that was what Trump said we were doing in
his speech.
Viva the soon-to-be-free citizens of Venezuela and long may they enjoy
the restoration of democracy! (And yes, I know the current regime isn't
gone but I'm optimistic that they soon will be.)
Hopefully that happens, but sadly, we haven't had a great track record
in rebuilding countries.
BTR1701 <atropos@mac.com> wrote:
It is true that a lot of the Democrats who are now screeching about "violating
international law by kidnapping a head of state" are having to explain a lot >> of inconvenient tweets and statements that are barely a year old where they >> literally said things like, "Maduro is an illegitimate and brutal dictator >> whole stole an election and should be removed". Now that Trump has done
exactly what they called for, he's suddenly a war criminal or something.
Fuck Trump for snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. No one, except Cuba, Russia, and China, recognizes Maduro as head of state. Biden
twisted Maduro's arm till he called that election. Maduro then had Hugo Chavez's leading opponenent Maria Corina Machado barred from running.
The unified opposition ran Edmundo Gonzalez, her ally, instead. Maduro
lost. The entire world said so.
Trump must not say that the U.S. will run the country given that we
aren't even occupying the place. He's got to recognize Gonzales and make
it safe for Machado to come out of hiding. Give them every bit of
support and help restore the economy.
No clue if grabbing Maduro violated international law, considering his illegitimacy, but if we run the place and Gonzales does not, that's
clearly against international law.
Macron congratulated Trump! No other European leader did.
On Jan 3, 2026 at 7:54:42 PM PST, "moviePig" <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote:
On 1/3/2026 5:51 PM, BTR1701 wrote:
On Jan 3, 2026 at 2:36:28 PM PST, "moviePig" <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote: >>>
On 1/3/2026 4:31 PM, BTR1701 wrote:
On Jan 3, 2026 at 12:24:41 PM PST, ""Adam H. Kerman"" <ahk@chinet.com>
wrote:
BTR1701 <atropos@mac.com> wrote:
Jan 3, 2026 2:53:42 AM PST, shawn <nanoflower@notforg.m.a.i.l.com>: >>>>>>
Looks like we went to war last night with Venezuela.
Multiple bombs were dropped in Caracas centered on the military >>>>>>>> installations. Then there were multiple helicopters sent in, >>>>>>>> apparently to drop off troops to capture Maduro. It's unknown >>>>>>>> if that was the sole purpose of this attack or if there is more to >>>>>>>> come.
At least it looks like the bombing has stopped. Trump is supposed to
hold a press conference at 11AM. That's when we should find out just
what was the intent of this attack and if removing Maduro is the end
of it.
I'm ambivalent about all this. Maduro is a monster who was legitimately
indicted for actual crimes and he deserved to go down. His flirting with
Iran and China just sealed that deal. But I really wish Trump didn't
spend his entire press conference basically saying, "Now we've got all
that oil and now we're going to make so much money." I mean, even if
that's why you did all this, show a little PR sense and focus on stuff
like "Now the people of the Venezuela are free and we'll be working on
rebuilding the democracy that existed before Maduro and Chavez and making
sure those who are starving get fed", etc. etc. 'Cause right now it just
looks like you took over a sovereign nation to steal their resources.
Even if there is a narcotrafficking case to be made, don't the people of
Venezuala deserve the opportunity to prosecute this asshole?
Well, if we're going with what the people of Venezuela want, they were
dancing
in the streets with joy over the news of Maduro's capture and rendition.
Are you sure? Wasn't the toppling of Saddam's statue staged?
Yes, I'm sure Trump went down to Doral, Florida and all the other places in
the country where Venezuelan ex-pats have gathered and put on staged
celebrations. <rolls eyes>
I seem to recall, post-conflict, videos of ecstatic Iraqi throngs
--videos that I naively accepted at face-value. I'd like to know why
you're so credulous in this instance, with so many similar circumstances
in play (not to mention a president demonstrably devoted to lying).
I've been greatly amused over the last 24 hours watching activists and pundits
claiming to be "standing with the people of Venezuela against imperialist violence", only to be left sputtering and speechless when shown clip after clip of the actual people of Venezuela celebrating the actions of the United States in ridding them of a monster.
In one memorable instance, a communist activist in Times Square waving the red
hammer-and-sickle banner and shouting "solidarity with the people of Venezuela!" was informed by an interviewer that the Venezuelan people were currently about 30 blocks south, gathered around the Manhattan Courthouse, and
praising the arrest and rendition of Maduro. The commie refused to believe it so the interviewer pulled up live news coverage of it on his phone and showed it to him, then asked, "So are you still in solidarity with the people of Venezuela or are you really just in solidarity with a brutal authoritarian regime?" The commie tried to hit the guy with his flagpole in response.
On 2026-01-04 6:47 p.m., Adam H. Kerman wrote:
BTR1701 <atropos@mac.com> wrote:
It is true that a lot of the Democrats who are now screeching about "violating
international law by kidnapping a head of state" are having to explain a lot
of inconvenient tweets and statements that are barely a year old where they >>> literally said things like, "Maduro is an illegitimate and brutal dictator >>> whole stole an election and should be removed". Now that Trump has done
exactly what they called for, he's suddenly a war criminal or something.
Fuck Trump for snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. No one, except
Cuba, Russia, and China, recognizes Maduro as head of state. Biden
twisted Maduro's arm till he called that election. Maduro then had Hugo
Chavez's leading opponenent Maria Corina Machado barred from running.
The unified opposition ran Edmundo Gonzalez, her ally, instead. Maduro
lost. The entire world said so.
Trump must not say that the U.S. will run the country given that we
aren't even occupying the place. He's got to recognize Gonzales and make
it safe for Machado to come out of hiding. Give them every bit of
support and help restore the economy.
No clue if grabbing Maduro violated international law, considering his
illegitimacy, but if we run the place and Gonzales does not, that's
clearly against international law.
I would imagine American involvement in WWII violated all kinds of >international law too but sometimes the law has to be ignored to do
right. I don't remember hearing about the Americans clearing customs on
the Normandy beaches so they apparently invaded (occupied) France. That >alone must be a major breach of law.
Macron congratulated Trump! No other European leader did.
Our foreign minister made noises that acknowledged Maduro was an >illegitimate leader but made no effort to thank or praise Trump.
On Sun, 4 Jan 2026 23:52:27 -0500, Rhino
<no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:
On 2026-01-04 6:47 p.m., Adam H. Kerman wrote:
BTR1701 <atropos@mac.com> wrote:
It is true that a lot of the Democrats who are now screeching about
"violating international law by kidnapping a head of state" are having >>>> to explain a lot of inconvenient tweets and statements that are barely >>>> a year old where they literally said things like, "Maduro is an
illegitimate and brutal dictator whole stole an election and should be >>>> removed". Now that Trump has done exactly what they called for, he's
suddenly a war criminal or something.
Fuck Trump for snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. No one, except >>> Cuba, Russia, and China, recognizes Maduro as head of state. Biden
twisted Maduro's arm till he called that election. Maduro then had Hugo >>> Chavez's leading opponenent Maria Corina Machado barred from running.
The unified opposition ran Edmundo Gonzalez, her ally, instead. Maduro
lost. The entire world said so.
Trump must not say that the U.S. will run the country given that we
aren't even occupying the place. He's got to recognize Gonzales and
make it safe for Machado to come out of hiding. Give them every bit of
support and help restore the economy.
No clue if grabbing Maduro violated international law, considering his
illegitimacy, but if we run the place and Gonzales does not, that's
clearly against international law.
I would imagine American involvement in WWII violated all kinds of
international law too but sometimes the law has to be ignored to do
right. I don't remember hearing about the Americans clearing customs on
the Normandy beaches so they apparently invaded (occupied) France. That
alone must be a major breach of law.
There is one major difference that is described in the words, World War
II. There was a declared war between the two countries. In this case
Trump went around Congress and took action without ever declaring war.
In fact we've got Marco Rubio declaring that this was just an arrest.
An arrest including multiple bombings, military boots on the ground and apparently the deaths of over 80 people including many civilians.
Macron congratulated Trump! No other European leader did.
Our foreign minister made noises that acknowledged Maduro was an
illegitimate leader but made no effort to thank or praise Trump.
On 2026-01-04 6:47 p.m., Adam H. Kerman wrote:
BTR1701 <atropos@mac.com> wrote:
It is true that a lot of the Democrats who are now screeching about
"violating international law by kidnapping a head of state" are having
to explain a lot of inconvenient tweets and statements that are barely
a year old where they literally said things like, "Maduro is an illegitimate
and brutal dictator whole stole an election and should be removed".
Now that Trump has done exactly what they called for, he's suddenly a
war criminal or something.
Fuck Trump for snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. No one, except
Cuba, Russia, and China, recognizes Maduro as head of state. Biden
twisted Maduro's arm till he called that election. Maduro then had Hugo
Chavez's leading opponenent Maria Corina Machado barred from running.
The unified opposition ran Edmundo Gonzalez, her ally, instead. Maduro
lost. The entire world said so.
Trump must not say that the U.S. will run the country given that we
aren't even occupying the place. He's got to recognize Gonzales and make
it safe for Machado to come out of hiding. Give them every bit of
support and help restore the economy.
No clue if grabbing Maduro violated international law, considering his
illegitimacy, but if we run the place and Gonzales does not, that's
clearly against international law.
I would imagine American involvement in WWII violated all kinds of >international law too but sometimes the law has to be ignored to do
right. I don't remember hearing about the Americans clearing customs on
the Normandy beaches so they apparently invaded (occupied) France. That >alone must be a major breach of law.
Macron congratulated Trump! No other European leader did.
Our foreign minister made noises that acknowledged Maduro was an >illegitimate leader but made no effort to thank or praise Trump.
Rhino <no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:
On 2026-01-04 6:47 p.m., Adam H. Kerman wrote:
BTR1701 <atropos@mac.com> wrote:
It is true that a lot of the Democrats who are now screeching about
"violating international law by kidnapping a head of state" are having to >>>> explain a lot of inconvenient tweets and statements that are barely a >>>> year old where they literally said things like, "Maduro is an
illegitimate and brutal dictator whole stole an election and should be >>>> removed". Now that Trump has done exactly what they called for, he's
suddenly a war criminal or something.
Fuck Trump for snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. No one, except >>> Cuba, Russia, and China, recognizes Maduro as head of state. Biden
twisted Maduro's arm till he called that election. Maduro then had Hugo
Chavez's leading opponenent Maria Corina Machado barred from running.
The unified opposition ran Edmundo Gonzalez, her ally, instead. Maduro
lost. The entire world said so.
Trump must not say that the U.S. will run the country given that we
aren't even occupying the place. He's got to recognize Gonzales and make >>> it safe for Machado to come out of hiding. Give them every bit of
support and help restore the economy.
No clue if grabbing Maduro violated international law, considering his
illegitimacy, but if we run the place and Gonzales does not, that's
clearly against international law.
I would imagine American involvement in WWII violated all kinds of >>international law too but sometimes the law has to be ignored to do
right. I don't remember hearing about the Americans clearing customs on >>the Normandy beaches so they apparently invaded (occupied) France. That >>alone must be a major breach of law.
There is one major difference that is described in the words, World
War II. There was a declared war between the two countries. In this
case Trump went around Congress and took action without ever declaring
war. In fact we've got Marco Rubio declaring that this was just an
arrest. An arrest including multiple bombings, military boots on the
ground and apparently the deaths of over 80 people including many
civilians.
He's after that oil which the US doesn't particularly need, he'll be
dead before we could get their oil fields up and running anyway (5-10 >years). Venezuela supposedly has bigger oil reserves than Saudi Arabia.
I would imagine American involvement in WWII violated all kinds of >international law too but sometimes the law has to be ignored to do
right. I don't remember hearing about the Americans clearing customs on
the Normandy beaches so they apparently invaded (occupied) France. That >alone must be a major breach of law.
On 2026-01-05 05:49:30 +0000, shawn said:
On Sun, 4 Jan 2026 23:52:27 -0500, Rhino
<no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:
On 2026-01-04 6:47 p.m., Adam H. Kerman wrote:
BTR1701 <atropos@mac.com> wrote:
It is true that a lot of the Democrats who are now screeching about >>>>> "violating international law by kidnapping a head of state" are
having to explain a lot of inconvenient tweets and statements that
are barely a year old where they literally said things like,
"Maduro is an illegitimate and brutal dictator whole stole an
election and should be removed". Now that Trump has done exactly
what they called for, he's suddenly a war criminal or something.
Fuck Trump for snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. No one,
except
Cuba, Russia, and China, recognizes Maduro as head of state. Biden
twisted Maduro's arm till he called that election. Maduro then had
Hugo Chavez's leading opponenent Maria Corina Machado barred from
running. The unified opposition ran Edmundo Gonzalez, her ally,
instead. Maduro lost. The entire world said so.
Trump must not say that the U.S. will run the country given that we
aren't even occupying the place. He's got to recognize Gonzales and
make it safe for Machado to come out of hiding. Give them every bit
of support and help restore the economy.
No clue if grabbing Maduro violated international law, considering his >>>> illegitimacy, but if we run the place and Gonzales does not, that's
clearly against international law.
I would imagine American involvement in WWII violated all kinds of
international law too but sometimes the law has to be ignored to do
right. I don't remember hearing about the Americans clearing customs
on the Normandy beaches so they apparently invaded (occupied) France.
That alone must be a major breach of law.
There is one major difference that is described in the words, World
War II. There was a declared war between the two countries. In this
case Trump went around Congress and took action without ever declaring
war. In fact we've got Marco Rubio declaring that this was just an
arrest. An arrest including multiple bombings, military boots on the
ground and apparently the deaths of over 80 people including many
civilians.
America specifically decided to stay out of World War II (officially
anyway, some individuals did of course volunteer) ... *until* Japan
attacked Pearl Harbor, then they quickly changed their mind.
On 2026-01-04 6:47 p.m., Adam H. Kerman wrote:
BTR1701 <atropos@mac.com> wrote:
It is true that a lot of the Democrats who are now screeching aboutFuck Trump for snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. No one, except
"violating
international law by kidnapping a head of state" are having to explain a lot
of inconvenient tweets and statements that are barely a year old where they
literally said things like, "Maduro is an illegitimate and brutal dictator >>> whole stole an election and should be removed". Now that Trump has done >>> exactly what they called for, he's suddenly a war criminal or something. >>
Cuba, Russia, and China, recognizes Maduro as head of state. Biden
twisted Maduro's arm till he called that election. Maduro then had Hugo
Chavez's leading opponenent Maria Corina Machado barred from running.
The unified opposition ran Edmundo Gonzalez, her ally, instead. Maduro
lost. The entire world said so.
Trump must not say that the U.S. will run the country given that we
aren't even occupying the place. He's got to recognize Gonzales and make
it safe for Machado to come out of hiding. Give them every bit of
support and help restore the economy.
No clue if grabbing Maduro violated international law, considering his
illegitimacy, but if we run the place and Gonzales does not, that's
clearly against international law.
I would imagine American involvement in WWII violated all kinds of international law too
Macron congratulated Trump! No other European leader did.
Our foreign minister made noises that acknowledged Maduro was an illegitimate leader but made no effort to thank or praise Trump.
On Sun, 4 Jan 2026 23:52:27 -0500, Rhino
<no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:
On 2026-01-04 6:47 p.m., Adam H. Kerman wrote:
BTR1701 <atropos@mac.com> wrote:
It is true that a lot of the Democrats who are now screeching aboutFuck Trump for snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. No one, except >>> Cuba, Russia, and China, recognizes Maduro as head of state. Biden
"violating
international law by kidnapping a head of state" are having to explain a lot
of inconvenient tweets and statements that are barely a year old where they
literally said things like, "Maduro is an illegitimate and brutal dictator
whole stole an election and should be removed". Now that Trump has done >>>> exactly what they called for, he's suddenly a war criminal or something. >>>
twisted Maduro's arm till he called that election. Maduro then had Hugo >>> Chavez's leading opponenent Maria Corina Machado barred from running.
The unified opposition ran Edmundo Gonzalez, her ally, instead. Maduro
lost. The entire world said so.
Trump must not say that the U.S. will run the country given that we
aren't even occupying the place. He's got to recognize Gonzales and make >>> it safe for Machado to come out of hiding. Give them every bit of
support and help restore the economy.
No clue if grabbing Maduro violated international law, considering his
illegitimacy, but if we run the place and Gonzales does not, that's
clearly against international law.
I would imagine American involvement in WWII violated all kinds of
international law too but sometimes the law has to be ignored to do
right. I don't remember hearing about the Americans clearing customs on
the Normandy beaches so they apparently invaded (occupied) France. That
alone must be a major breach of law.
There is one major difference that is described in the words, World
War II. There was a declared war between the two countries.
Rhino <no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:
I would imagine American involvement in WWII violated all kinds of
international law too but sometimes the law has to be ignored to do
right. I don't remember hearing about the Americans clearing customs on
the Normandy beaches so they apparently invaded (occupied) France. That
alone must be a major breach of law.
A major violation was the Molotov Pact
It is true that a lot of the Democrats who are now screeching about "violating >international law by kidnapping a head of state" are having to explain a lot >of inconvenient tweets and statements that are barely a year old where they >literally said things like, "Maduro is an illegitimate and brutal dictator >whole stole an election and should be removed". Now that Trump has done >exactly what they called for, he's suddenly a war criminal or something.
On 2026-01-03 4:31 p.m., BTR1701 wrote:
On Jan 3, 2026 at 12:24:41 PM PST, ""Adam H. Kerman"" <ahk@chinet.com>Not that their feelings really matter to the media. The media need to
wrote:
BTR1701 <atropos@mac.com> wrote:
Jan 3, 2026 2:53:42 AM PST, shawn <nanoflower@notforg.m.a.i.l.com>:
Looks like we went to war last night with Venezuela.
Multiple bombs were dropped in Caracas centered on the military
installations. Then there were multiple helicopters sent in,
apparently to drop off troops to capture Maduro. It's unknown
if that was the sole purpose of this attack or if there is more to
come.
At least it looks like the bombing has stopped. Trump is supposed to >>>>> hold a press conference at 11AM. That's when we should find out just >>>>> what was the intent of this attack and if removing Maduro is the end >>>>> of it.
I'm ambivalent about all this. Maduro is a monster who was legitimately >>>> indicted for actual crimes and he deserved to go down. His flirting with >>>> Iran and China just sealed that deal. But I really wish Trump didn't
spend his entire press conference basically saying, "Now we've got all >>>> that oil and now we're going to make so much money." I mean, even if
that's why you did all this, show a little PR sense and focus on stuff >>>> like "Now the people of the Venezuela are free and we'll be working on >>>> rebuilding the democracy that existed before Maduro and Chavez and making >>>> sure those who are starving get fed", etc. etc. 'Cause right now it just >>>> looks like you took over a sovereign nation to steal their resources.
Even if there is a narcotrafficking case to be made, don't the people of >>> Venezuala deserve the opportunity to prosecute this asshole?
Well, if we're going with what the people of Venezuela want, they were
dancing
in the streets with joy over the news of Maduro's capture and rendition.
paint EVERYTHING Trump does in the worst possible light because they
hate him and that's all that matters. They either ignore previous
precedents like the arrest of Noriega or they insist this is different.
Viva the soon-to-be-free citizens of Venezuela and long may they enjoy
the restoration of democracy! (And yes, I know the current regime isn't
gone but I'm optimistic that they soon will be.)
On 1/4/2026 10:32 PM, Your Name wrote:
On 2026-01-05 05:49:30 +0000, shawn said:
On Sun, 4 Jan 2026 23:52:27 -0500, Rhino
<no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:
On 2026-01-04 6:47 p.m., Adam H. Kerman wrote:
BTR1701 <atropos@mac.com> wrote:
It is true that a lot of the Democrats who are now screeching about >>>>>> "violating international law by kidnapping a head of state" are having >>>>>> to explain a lot of inconvenient tweets and statements that are barely >>>>>> a year old where they literally said things like, "Maduro is an
illegitimate and brutal dictator whole stole an election and should be >>>>>> removed". Now that Trump has done exactly what they called for, he's >>>>>> suddenly a war criminal or something.
Fuck Trump for snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. No one, except >>>>> Cuba, Russia, and China, recognizes Maduro as head of state. Biden
twisted Maduro's arm till he called that election. Maduro then had Hugo >>>>> Chavez's leading opponenent Maria Corina Machado barred from running. >>>>> The unified opposition ran Edmundo Gonzalez, her ally, instead. Maduro >>>>> lost. The entire world said so.
Trump must not say that the U.S. will run the country given that we >>>>> aren't even occupying the place. He's got to recognize Gonzales and >>>>> make it safe for Machado to come out of hiding. Give them every bit of >>>>> support and help restore the economy.
No clue if grabbing Maduro violated international law, considering his >>>>> illegitimacy, but if we run the place and Gonzales does not, that's >>>>> clearly against international law.
I would imagine American involvement in WWII violated all kinds of
international law too but sometimes the law has to be ignored to do
right. I don't remember hearing about the Americans clearing customs on >>>> the Normandy beaches so they apparently invaded (occupied) France. That >>>> alone must be a major breach of law.
There is one major difference that is described in the words, World War >>> II. There was a declared war between the two countries. In this case
Trump went around Congress and took action without ever declaring war.
In fact we've got Marco Rubio declaring that this was just an arrest.
An arrest including multiple bombings, military boots on the ground and >>> apparently the deaths of over 80 people including many civilians.
America specifically decided to stay out of World War II (officially
anyway, some individuals did of course volunteer) ... *until* Japan
attacked Pearl Harbor, then they quickly changed their mind.
And even then Congress declared war on Japan. Which led to Germany declaring war on the US. I don't remember ATM if we reciprocated that
or not.
BTR1701 <atropos@mac.com> wrote:
I'm ambivalent about all this. Maduro is a monster who was legitimately >>indicted for actual crimes and he deserved to go down. His flirting with >>Iran and China just sealed that deal. But I really wish Trump didn't spend >>his entire press conference basically saying, ?Now we've got all that oil >>and now we're going to make so much money.? I mean, even if that's why
you did all this, show a little PR sense and focus on stuff like ?Now the >>people of the Venezuela are free and we'll be working on rebuilding the >>democracy that existed before Maduro and Chavez and making sure those who >>are starving get fed?, etc. etc. ?Cause right now it just looks like you >>took over a sovereign nation to steal their resources.
Which is what we did, take over the country for the oil.
Which is what we did, take over the country for the oil.
You're close, but not quite right. Trump has deprived China of a lot of oil.
On 2026-01-04 15:21:23 +0000, suzeeq said:
On 1/3/2026 11:01 PM, Your Name wrote:
On 2026-01-03 17:52:29 +0000, shawn said:
On Sat, 3 Jan 2026 17:48:35 -0000 (UTC), BTR1701 <atropos@mac.com>
wrote:
On Jan 3, 2026 at 2:53:42 AM PST, "shawn" <nanoflower@notforg.m.a.i.l.com>
wrote:
Looks like we went to war last night with Venezuela.
Multiple bombs were dropped in Caracas centered on the military
installations. Then there were multiple helicopters sent in,
apparently to drop off troops to capture Maduro. It's unknown
if that was the sole purpose of this attack or if there is more to >>>>>> come.
At least it looks like the bombing has stopped. Trump is supposed to >>>>>> hold a press conference at 11AM. That's when we should find out just >>>>>> what was the intent of this attack and if removing Maduro is the end >>>>>> of it.
I?m ambivalent about all this. Maduro is a monster who was legitimately >>>>> indicted for actual crimes and he deserved to go down. His flirting >>>>> with Iran and China just sealed that deal. But I really wish Trump
didn?t spend his entire press conference basically saying, ?Now we?ve >>>>> got all that oil and now we?re going to make so much money.? I mean, >>>>> even if that?s why you did all this, show a little PR sense and focus >>>>> on stuff like ?Now the people of the Venezuela are free and we?ll be >>>>> working on rebuilding the democracy that existed before Maduro and
Chavez and making sure those who are starving get fed?, etc. etc.
?Cause right now it just looks like you took over a sovereign nation to >>>>> steal their resources.
Which is what we did, take over the country for the oil. If there was
no oil there Trump would not care enough to send in the troops. Trump
is just making it clear why we did it.
If his plan was to go after oil, then Trump the Chump is an even bigger >>> idiot than everyone already knows him to be. Venezuela produces less
than 1% of the world's oil supply, while the USA is already the top
producer at around 22%.
Right now, but he said thet's due to poor maintnance of their oil
production. They've got more reserves than the Saudis.
The moron also said Covid could be cured by injecting belach /
disinfectant. Pretty much everything the braindead lunatic says is
simply utter crap and lies to suit his own egotistical agenda.
On Jan 3, 2026 at 11:19:50 PM PST, "Ubiquitous" <weberm@polaris.net> wrote:
BTR1701 <atropos@mac.com> wrote:
I'm ambivalent about all this. Maduro is a monster who was legitimately
indicted for actual crimes and he deserved to go down. His flirting with >>> Iran and China just sealed that deal. But I really wish Trump didn't
spend his entire press conference basically saying, "Now we've got all
that oil and now we're going to make so much money." I mean, even if
that's why you did all this, show a little PR sense and focus on stuff
like "Now the people of the Venezuela are free and we'll be working on
rebuilding the democracy that existed before Maduro and Chavez and making >>> sure those who are starving get fed", etc. etc. 'Cause right now it just >>> looks like you took over a sovereign nation to steal their resources.
Correct me if I am wrong, but weren't Dems for the last four years or so
wringing their hands about "doing something" about Maduro and didn't Biden >> put a $25M bounty on him?
It is true that a lot of the Democrats who are now screeching about "violating >international law by kidnapping a head of state" are having to explain a lot >of inconvenient tweets and statements that are barely a year old where they >literally said things like, "Maduro is an illegitimate and brutal dictator >whole stole an election and should be removed". Now that Trump has done >exactly what they called for, he's suddenly a war criminal or something.
On 1/4/2026 2:34 PM, BTR1701 wrote:
On Jan 3, 2026 at 11:19:50 PM PST, "Ubiquitous" <weberm@polaris.net> wrote: >>
BTR1701 <atropos@mac.com> wrote:
I'm ambivalent about all this. Maduro is a monster who was legitimately >>>> indicted for actual crimes and he deserved to go down. His flirting with >>>> Iran and China just sealed that deal. But I really wish Trump didn't
spend his entire press conference basically saying, "Now we've got all >>>> that oil and now we're going to make so much money." I mean, even if
that's why you did all this, show a little PR sense and focus on stuff >>>> like "Now the people of the Venezuela are free and we'll be working on >>>> rebuilding the democracy that existed before Maduro and Chavez and making >>>> sure those who are starving get fed", etc. etc. 'Cause right now it just >>>> looks like you took over a sovereign nation to steal their resources.
Correct me if I am wrong, but weren't Dems for the last four years or so >>> wringing their hands about "doing something" about Maduro and didn't Biden >>> put a $25M bounty on him?
It is true that a lot of the Democrats who are now screeching about "violating
international law by kidnapping a head of state" are having to explain a lot >> of inconvenient tweets and statements that are barely a year old where they >> literally said things like, "Maduro is an illegitimate and brutal dictator >> whole stole an election and should be removed". Now that Trump has done
exactly what they called for, he's suddenly a war criminal or something.
Bernie Sanders maintains both assertions. They're not inconsistent.
On Sun, 4 Jan 2026 15:10:50 -0500, moviePig <nobody@nowhere.com>
wrote:
On 1/4/2026 2:34 PM, BTR1701 wrote:Laughter!
On Jan 3, 2026 at 11:19:50 PM PST, "Ubiquitous" <weberm@polaris.net> wrote: >>>
BTR1701 <atropos@mac.com> wrote:
I'm ambivalent about all this. Maduro is a monster who was legitimately >>>>> indicted for actual crimes and he deserved to go down. His flirting with >>>>> Iran and China just sealed that deal. But I really wish Trump didn't >>>>> spend his entire press conference basically saying, "Now we've got all >>>>> that oil and now we're going to make so much money." I mean, even if >>>>> that's why you did all this, show a little PR sense and focus on stuff >>>>> like "Now the people of the Venezuela are free and we'll be working on >>>>> rebuilding the democracy that existed before Maduro and Chavez and making >>>>> sure those who are starving get fed", etc. etc. 'Cause right now it just >>>>> looks like you took over a sovereign nation to steal their resources. >>>>Correct me if I am wrong, but weren't Dems for the last four years or so >>>> wringing their hands about "doing something" about Maduro and didn't Biden >>>> put a $25M bounty on him?
It is true that a lot of the Democrats who are now screeching about "violating
international law by kidnapping a head of state" are having to explain a lot
of inconvenient tweets and statements that are barely a year old where they >>> literally said things like, "Maduro is an illegitimate and brutal dictator >>> whole stole an election and should be removed". Now that Trump has done
exactly what they called for, he's suddenly a war criminal or something.
Bernie Sanders maintains both assertions. They're not inconsistent.
Yeah they are.
On Jan 4, 2026 at 12:10:50 PM PST, "moviePig" <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote:
On 1/4/2026 2:34 PM, BTR1701 wrote:
On Jan 3, 2026 at 11:19:50 PM PST, "Ubiquitous" <weberm@polaris.net> wrote: >>>
BTR1701 <atropos@mac.com> wrote:
I'm ambivalent about all this. Maduro is a monster who was legitimately >>>>> indicted for actual crimes and he deserved to go down. His flirting with >>>>> Iran and China just sealed that deal. But I really wish Trump didn't >>>>> spend his entire press conference basically saying, "Now we've got all >>>>> that oil and now we're going to make so much money." I mean, even if >>>>> that's why you did all this, show a little PR sense and focus on stuff >>>>> like "Now the people of the Venezuela are free and we'll be working on >>>>> rebuilding the democracy that existed before Maduro and Chavez and making >>>>> sure those who are starving get fed", etc. etc. 'Cause right now it just >>>>> looks like you took over a sovereign nation to steal their resources. >>>>Correct me if I am wrong, but weren't Dems for the last four years or so >>>> wringing their hands about "doing something" about Maduro and didn't Biden >>>> put a $25M bounty on him?
It is true that a lot of the Democrats who are now screeching about
"violating
international law by kidnapping a head of state" are having to explain a lot
of inconvenient tweets and statements that are barely a year old where they >>> literally said things like, "Maduro is an illegitimate and brutal dictator >>> whole stole an election and should be removed". Now that Trump has done
exactly what they called for, he's suddenly a war criminal or something.
Bernie Sanders maintains both assertions. They're not inconsistent.
Then who's going to remove Maduro if not someone like Trump? It's not like his
own people can just do it themselves.
On 2026-01-04 21:46:54 +0000, BTR1701 said:
On Jan 4, 2026 at 12:10:50 PM PST, "moviePig" <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote:
On 1/4/2026 2:34 PM, BTR1701 wrote:
On Jan 3, 2026 at 11:19:50 PM PST, "Ubiquitous" <weberm@polaris.net>
wrote:
BTR1701 <atropos@mac.com> wrote:
I'm ambivalent about all this. Maduro is a monster who wasCorrect me if I am wrong, but weren't Dems for the last four years
legitimately
indicted for actual crimes and he deserved to go down. His
flirting with
Iran and China just sealed that deal. But I really wish Trump didn't >>>>>> spend his entire press conference basically saying, "Now we've got >>>>>> all
that oil and now we're going to make so much money." I mean, even if >>>>>> that's why you did all this, show a little PR sense and focus on
stuff
like "Now the people of the Venezuela are free and we'll be
working on
rebuilding the democracy that existed before Maduro and Chavez and >>>>>> making
sure those who are starving get fed", etc. etc. 'Cause right now
it just
looks like you took over a sovereign nation to steal their resources. >>>>>
or so
wringing their hands about "doing something" about Maduro and
didn't Biden
put a $25M bounty on him?
It is true that a lot of the Democrats who are now screeching about
"violating
international law by kidnapping a head of state" are having to
explain a lot
of inconvenient tweets and statements that are barely a year old
where they
literally said things like, "Maduro is an illegitimate and brutal
dictator
whole stole an election and should be removed". Now that Trump has done >>>> exactly what they called for, he's suddenly a war criminal or
something.
Bernie Sanders maintains both assertions.ÿ They're not inconsistent.
Then who's going to remove Maduro if not someone like Trump? It's not
like his
own people can just do it themselves.
Trump is all about stealing and rigging elections, one would think he'd
have a lot of respect for Maduro.
Ubiquitous <weberm@polaris.net> wrote:
In article <10jcq4m$1okcl$1@dont-email.me>, atropos@mac.com wrote:
On Jan 3, 2026 at 7:54:42 PM PST, "moviePig" <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote: >>>> On 1/3/2026 5:51 PM, BTR1701 wrote:
"moviePig" <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote:
On 1/3/2026 4:31 PM, BTR1701 wrote:
Well, if we're going with what the people of Venezuela want, they were >>>>>>> dancing in the streets with joy over the news of Maduro's capture and >>>>>>> rendition.
Are you sure? Wasn't the toppling of Saddam's statue staged?
Yes, I'm sure Trump went down to Doral, Florida and all the other places >>>>> in the country where Venezuelan ex-pats have gathered and put on staged >>>>> celebrations. <rolls eyes>
I seem to recall, post-conflict, videos of ecstatic Iraqi throngs
--videos that I naively accepted at face-value. I'd like to know why >>>> you're so credulous in this instance, with so many similar circumstances >>>> in play (not to mention a president demonstrably devoted to lying).
Are you suggesting that all the mainstream media coverage of the >>>celebrations lacked legitimate effort at reporting? That we no longer have >>>a functioning media in America? Because that would be quite a bold step >>>for you.
If memory serves, moviepig is referring to photos released by the liberal >> media an hour before or after a statue-toppling, claiming it was "proof"
that the event was staged. They did the same thing when trying to claim
attendance at Trump's Inaguaration was very low.
Some things never change.
And some still blindly accept whatever the liberal media puts out.
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